Something Instead of Nothing

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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:11 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Nothingness is a lack of its own existence, which forces the opposite; hence, why existence exists.


How are you using the term *Nothingness*? As some perceived and felt aspect of one's own individual human existence within the psyche or as something which has not as yet been discovered and acknowledged within the Universe?
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:03 am

Ecmandu wrote:
phyllo wrote:
My argument is not circular .... nice try to get that blonde around the corner though. It worked.
How do you know that "it worked"?


Guys who contradict themselves and cannibalize their own rationality, always get the girl. Part of the reason the structure of the cosmos needs remaking.


As I noted on another thread, how fascinating it would be if the technology existed that would allow us to fathom what goes on inside his head and to think these things as he does.

Is it a mental delusion of some sort? Is it entirely an intellectual contraption constructed out of what to others would be a bizarre way of thinking about things? Or is he just putting us on? Mocking the thing that others might actually take seriously? An exercise in irony?

He would have to bring his accusations down to earth. Then we would need to discuss our reactions to human interactions such that he could connect the dots between his "general descriptions" and behaviors we are all familiar with.

Then he could point out the manner in which I "contradict myself" and "cannibalize my own rationality".

As for this girl that he is seemingly obsessed with, it merely reflects yet again my conclusion that he is five cans short of a six-pack with respect to his communication skills.

He just doesn't strike me as altogether there at times. Unless, of course, I'm the problem. He is telling us something important that continues to elude me.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:35 pm

Before we go on, pleasley can some of this crowd explain to the audience what's the difference between nothing and nothingness?
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Meno_ » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:44 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:Before we go on, pleasley can some of this crowd explain to the audience what's the difference between nothing and nothingness?




Well, that's an easy one: nothing is no thing
What is no thing? It is some some space where even that cannot be understood to having a thing in it

It is another dimension without anything in it. I don't consider energy, cosmic rays things, nor audio messages from outer space.Space is not a thing.

Nothingness is neither something, and it includes existence as it were some thing. That's an existential jump to contain some thing which is really no thing.

Nothingness reduces even the slightest doubt of gamma rays, neural pathways, electromagnetic wave generations and radio waves generated by pulsars into merely the only connections between thought as energy and thought of it.

If I can say that connection is something, them indeed there is no difference between them.

There is, in a sense, but in another sense, there is nothing.

It seems useful to compare this paradox to the history of art through re presentation. Reality. Is something generally until modernity breaks it down, look at a woman one way, different angle, literally turning the woman around, and seeing it from one side, OR, looking at her with an angle as to why turning her around the first place

The mechanics are bizarre, hard to fathom why it happened, what for, turning a woman around ,for that obvious reason.

And a woman may think otherwise, while turning him around.

It all comes down to the same thing: is a cup half full, or half empty.

A cup is empty of water, or is it empty of air? - hot or cold.

Emptiness is empty of what is not apprehended, therefore what is not apprehended is full of it, and that is the ultimate convergence, :

If nothingness is not apprehended, does it mean it contains nothing, or, can it still contain some thing?

Can we assume nothing to be some thing, at least if the limits of that nothingness contain space and time?

If not, then a limitless space may not to be said to have spatial dimensions, and if there are things in there, that would be there virtually only as possibility.

Is it possible that potential points in space are a things?

Is a woman, hidden within probability merely a possible source for merely seconds of connective thingness, as for a man as well?

Then the pleasure of love is the reason for why she was created out of Adams rib.

Now is that some thing? Or better said, isn't that something!
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Meno_ » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:38 pm

But seriously on a lighter note , simply, the answer is within the folds of existence, being and nothingness, which the Scholastics used to call essence.

That was a proverbial solution to being and nothingness , as itself a conditional approach as to why souls come in the guise of a god manifested as an evil genius, or a philosopher king.

If being and nothingness was all that was left out of the equation, then , it solidifies the presumption that the logic and not the king is gone, for sure
for the simple reason that differences differences came to be like film, spliced and filled in with stills, which sustained then superiority Parmenedes over Hericlatus; stillness over motion.

This difference , in spite of what they say, has to be reaffirmed at all costs, and this is where things go haywire , and nothingness excluded the act of the will, for men had finally and tacitly had to admit, moral justification byways of policy, whereby the black letter of the lawful evil, of a genius very far gone, needed a review of past structural ,past postmodern review.

Otherwise , people should conspire to revise it.-a loose rendition -

Barbarian don't despite me for my obvious distaste for quick fixes for there may not be one. In fact ,it points to a possible state of no return.

Since things can not be further from the truth, the course toward entropy set not reversed, the conflation may be a strategic move in and out of the garbage pail.
Last edited by Meno_ on Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Meno_ » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:44 pm

And not for a fait accompli, that this nothingness again to a mere nothing, a trifle not worth inquiring into, that individuality be reinstalled, even by self sacrificial means of which Ec.so skillfully maintains his licence to liscenciousness.And I concur to reserve that right.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Pneumatic-Coma » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:58 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:It is a way to trick the mind into thinking it's not there. Take away its full existence. To imagine nothing in its stead.


That's what he meant by "the question, a denial of the something, there is."
(Our object of desire isn't to change current belief systems or complicate already convoluted streams of information; we're not trying to even prove ourselves in anyway. We're just human beings similar to yourself. Not superior, the same. Ancestors of the lost world. The conflicts of beliefs you face in your world, are not only the conflict of self yet life, we cannot compel such conflicts to other's will for any self-benefit. The true goal reached here is there is nothing we can say nor do that can convince anyone else of what they don't know for themselves already. And, when the time calls, and you are ready, the barriers of awareness will expand and such confirmed information will be easily perceived, and known to them! Allow them to seek and find out when they are prepared. All will arrive to light in no time.) Ego sum via veritas et vita;Amesha Spenta;Vohu Mano; Allow all things measurable, microbial and astronomical to remain infinite, unchanged and arrive to light.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:11 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:Before we go on, pleasley can some of this crowd explain to the audience what's the difference between nothing and nothingness?


Again, we need an actual context here. We need things that we can point to or not point to and say something or nothing.

Or, with respect to existence itself, somethingness and nothingness.

Given somethingness, we need to make the distinction between existence where some things exist in that particular context and some things do not. Then the distinction between the either/or and is/ought worlds.

Then we need to go all the back to whatever brought into existence the existence of existence itself. And then speculate [and that's all it will ever probably be among mere mortals] about the possibility of everything there is simply "exploding" into existence out of nothing at all.

And then, finally, while noting that it is always fascinating to speculate about these things [the biggest of the Big Questions] what are the odds that infinitesimally tiny specks of existence like "you" and "I" will ever really know?

That is, before "I" is dead and gone, becoming nothing at all save for the elements that will eventually devolve back into star stuff.

Then: Cue God?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Silhouette » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:30 pm

The problem with the question is in the only way in which "nothing" can be understood.

Any way in which anyone ever refers to "nothing" is within a frame of something. E.g. nothing in the box: framed by the box. Nothing in the vacuum: framed by that which is outside of the vacuum, in particular all the things that are known to normally fill what isn't a vacuum - like air. Nothing in space: no light, no particles or waves - at least conceived and understood in terms of somethings that are conceptually outside the nothingness even if they weren't even spatially outside the nothingness. It has to be framed by "space" to be understood as nothing in our minds, else it is meaningless, and space is something, so the proposition contradicts itself even here.

"True" nothingness would have to be, amongst everything else, not-with-meaning (meaning is a something) - hence meaningless to us.

The question "why" asks for meaning. Ask "why" about meaninglessness, and you can't get an answer from the outset. An answer has meaning - and how can something (meaning) meaningfully come from nothing (meaningless)?

It's all contradiction, just like the grammar suggests. If there were to "be" nothing rather than something, how does that work? If we're talking about "why is there <blank>" - it has to be a something.

The question is trying to be "why do things like mass and energy exist, when presumably there must be some possible scenario where they didn't come to exist", at least in the minds of scientists - who answer "why" questions with "how". The best that even they can do is to frame a possibility of nothingness with the somethingness of some mechanism that isn't really nothingness, because a mechanism at least needs conceptual somethings to "work".

A better question might be "is this a valid question, and even if it was, what would we do with it?"
It seems to me more like an exercise question than a valid one.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Amorphos » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:20 am

2op
If there were only nothingness, there would be an infinite amount of it which is a whole and not nothing [it would be 1 'something'].

fc
In the Platonic and post Platonic philosophies, Being was done grave injustice. It was rendered frugal, fragile, porous in the minds of men and so the minds of men were cultivated to become weaker than could be justified, and "God" came to them as a disease, a symptom of their weakness, their being antithetical to being in its premises; these living dead, whose weakness lives on in the superstitions of ambiguous, Guide, and scores of other fugitives from existence here, produced "philosophy" in the form of the presupposition that being was this Platonic whole defined to them by the pristine absence of such filth as their own experiential reality - i.e. that whatever Being was in essence, it was irreconcilable with actuality. Since Plato, this has been the disease now called "humanity".


From what does all that derive? God/Christ made ordinary people stronger than they were before, then the collective value is greater. a collective strength requires determination of the individual + concession to the greater good ~ between individuals [even if that is not known].
In practice casting the mind over history and its lessons: we could take Spartan equals, then ask; why are first born males superior? Then lets say they generally are superior fighters for various reasons e.g. being decision makers etc, well; are not third born’s better archers, and second born's cavalry. Next level on, we can ask; is not the superior blacksmith of equal importance, would spartans defeat knights or Romans trained to work together by all their skills? It all ends up at intelligence and collectives winning. Which isn’t the same as being weak ~ the Romans were not weak, and their strength was collective.


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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:Before we go on, pleasley can some of this crowd explain to the audience what's the difference between nothing and nothingness?


Nothing is, at least to me, more an absence of something material capable of being seen lol and nothingness is more an emotional experience or a mood.

Stated in this way, the difference would have to be something which I would have to give more thought to. It is an interesting question.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Pneumatic-Coma » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:24 am

iambiguous wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:Before we go on, pleasley can some of this crowd explain to the audience what's the difference between nothing and nothingness?


Again, we need an actual context here. We need things that we can point to or not point to and say something or nothing.

Or, with respect to existence itself, somethingness and nothingness.

Given somethingness, we need to make the distinction between existence where some things exist in that particular context and some things do not. Then the distinction between the either/or and is/ought worlds.

Then we need to go all the back to whatever brought into existence the existence of existence itself. And then speculate [and that's all it will ever probably be among mere mortals] about the possibility of everything there is simply "exploding" into existence out of nothing at all.

And then, finally, while noting that it is always fascinating to speculate about these things [the biggest of the Big Questions] what are the odds that infinitesimally tiny specks of existence like "you" and "I" will ever really know?

That is, before "I" is dead and gone, becoming nothing at all save for the elements that will eventually devolve back into star stuff.

Then: Cue God?


That stardust has been lost for ages... Kind of like the suns of 2 hyper-giants or something ridiculous
(Our object of desire isn't to change current belief systems or complicate already convoluted streams of information; we're not trying to even prove ourselves in anyway. We're just human beings similar to yourself. Not superior, the same. Ancestors of the lost world. The conflicts of beliefs you face in your world, are not only the conflict of self yet life, we cannot compel such conflicts to other's will for any self-benefit. The true goal reached here is there is nothing we can say nor do that can convince anyone else of what they don't know for themselves already. And, when the time calls, and you are ready, the barriers of awareness will expand and such confirmed information will be easily perceived, and known to them! Allow them to seek and find out when they are prepared. All will arrive to light in no time.) Ego sum via veritas et vita;Amesha Spenta;Vohu Mano; Allow all things measurable, microbial and astronomical to remain infinite, unchanged and arrive to light.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:15 pm

Damn thanks all or these elaborated replies. I think this was a real philosophical question I accidentally asked.
Meno and Silhouette first, they make a great difference, I need to wrap my head round this difference first.

Nothing is a dimension which has no things or a trick in a training question.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:20 pm

Beurk. That is really difficult.


"is this a valid question, and even if it was, what would we do with it?"



maybe we can assume it is in some hidden way a valid question and this valid question is then also an answer about how to ask questions?
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:31 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:Before we go on, pleasley can some of this crowd explain to the audience what's the difference between nothing and nothingness?


Nothing is, at least to me, more an absence of something material capable of being seen lol and nothingness is more an emotional experience or a mood.

Ok so if im correct, nothing is objective and nothingness is subjective?
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:38 pm

iambiguous wrote:And then speculate [and that's all it will ever probably be among mere mortals]

No sir I disagree with you. First of all speculating is not philosophy and second I do a hell of a lot more than speculating. I can speculate that I may get in this pussy but when Im in it Im no longer speculating. I mean to begin with. That is how I was born by some dude not anymore speculating but doing the thing to some girl.

Or am I alone here?

Logic is definitely not speculative if you have a definitional logic.
You just begin with something real, which is always an action.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:13 pm

barbarianhorde


Nothing is, at least to me, more an absence of something material capable of being seen lol and nothingness is more an emotional experience or a mood.

Stated in this way, the difference would have to be something which I would have to give more thought to. It is an interesting question.


Ok so if im correct, nothing is objective and nothingness is subjective?


Yes, this is the way that I was looking at it. The former can be material while the later is ethereal or psychical ~~ though they both call to mind a kind of emptiness.

At the same time, when one thinks of the Universe before there was anything, if that was even so ~~ how can one ever comprehend it, one can call THAT (before all creation) nothing and nothingness... or devoid of space. lol I do not mean to convolute here.


maybe we can assume it is in some hidden way a valid question and this valid question is then also an answer about how to ask questions?


At the risk of showing my ignorance here, what is the valid question if there is one in particular?

What would be the criteria for making a question valid? Would it be the proof in the pudding meaning whether or not the answers which come from it are seemingly valid and not non-sensible...if that made sense.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby gib » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:45 pm

It does seem paradoxical that we can question "Why something rather than nothing?" given that a second's thought to the matter makes us realize you can't have nothing. This says something about the way we conceptualize 'things'. Even when we contemplate the whole of existence, we make it into a 'thing,' and a thing is conceptualized as an entity in existence, not as existence itself. Therefore, it seems incomplete. It seems like there ought to be other things around it, a background from which it came, a source, a greater universe to give existence to it. So to ask "why something?" is to ask: what is the greater existence that spawned the existence we know of? And how did it do it?
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:01 pm

Hold on, stop the pony, I just realized the Sun is nothingness.

all the things in it are destroyed constantly, it is just the failure of many things at once to exist impeding each other constantly and destroying. No city can ever be built in the Sun, no hammer forged. No thing can be made.

I find it far off to deny the Sun is a thing, but he is a thing as a negation of thingness. Thats a pretty special (and weird) thing.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:06 pm

That explains Christmas.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Silhouette » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:14 am

barbarianhorde wrote:Hold on, stop the pony, I just realized the Sun is nothingness.

all the things in it are destroyed constantly, it is just the failure of many things at once to exist impeding each other constantly and destroying. No city can ever be built in the Sun, no hammer forged. No thing can be made.

I find it far off to deny the Sun is a thing, but he is a thing as a negation of thingness. Thats a pretty special (and weird) thing.

So is the Sun the things that are destroyed in it? What is the "it" in which they are destroyed?
The Sun, surely?

Ironically, it is within stars like the Sun that all chemical elements are created.

Every single thing that you might consider to be a thing that would be destroyed by the Sun is historically a product of stars like the Sun.

Is not, also, "destruction" a form of "creation" - albeit a creation of something with more entropy?
Consider the "conservation of energy" that dictates that the energy taken to destroy is equally given off in another form such as light and heat. The light and heat at least are the Sun, surely? It's all some existent matter and energy behaving in some way or other, no matter how relatively violently and impermanently.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:40 am

Great reply because it makes it even more interesting for me, I stick with my discovery. Because listen, what gets destroyed the most in the Sun is hydrogen right? And hydrogen isn't made in the Sun it is what the Sun is made of when a cold cloud collapses.

So the sun is the thing that wrecks the stufflings of which it is made but then ...it makes carbon and oxygen because of where it dies and reincarnates into a red giant where all the heavier elements get prepared to get spat out into space when it dies for good and a neutron corpse star remain which is a thing ... because... it is totally still and dead.

So when the un-thing or nothingness dies it becomes things.
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby iambiguous » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:12 pm

Pneumatic-Coma wrote:
iambiguous wrote:And then, finally, while noting that it is always fascinating to speculate about these things [the biggest of the Big Questions] what are the odds that infinitesimally tiny specks of existence like "you" and "I" will ever really know?

That is, before "I" is dead and gone, becoming nothing at all save for the elements that will eventually devolve back into star stuff.

Then: Cue God?


That stardust has been lost for ages... Kind of like the suns of 2 hyper-giants or something ridiculous


Still, an understanding of somethingness involves somehow connecting the dots between what some insist was nothing at all exploding into existence into everything there is evolving over billions of years into matter mindful enough to speculate about the meaning of it all here and now.

Then the part where my somethingness topples over into the abyss that some insist is nothing at all, but: But the stuff we started out as.

And how preposterous does that sound?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby iambiguous » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:19 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
iambiguous wrote:And then speculate [and that's all it will ever probably be among mere mortals]

No sir I disagree with you. First of all speculating is not philosophy and second I do a hell of a lot more than speculating. I can speculate that I may get in this pussy but when Im in it Im no longer speculating. I mean to begin with. That is how I was born by some dude not anymore speculating but doing the thing to some girl.

Or am I alone here?

Logic is definitely not speculative if you have a definitional logic.
You just begin with something real, which is always an action.



I'm trying to imagine the star that you came from. This and how star stuff can somehow evolve into pussy.

Or, for that matter, dickheads. :-"
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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Re: Something Instead of Nothing

Postby Pneumatic-Coma » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:34 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Pneumatic-Coma wrote:
iambiguous wrote:And then, finally, while noting that it is always fascinating to speculate about these things [the biggest of the Big Questions] what are the odds that infinitesimally tiny specks of existence like "you" and "I" will ever really know?

That is, before "I" is dead and gone, becoming nothing at all save for the elements that will eventually devolve back into star stuff.

Then: Cue God?


That stardust has been lost for ages... Kind of like the suns of 2 hyper-giants or something ridiculous


Still, an understanding of somethingness involves somehow connecting the dots between what some insist was nothing at all exploding into existence into everything there is evolving over billions of years into matter mindful enough to speculate about the meaning of it all here and now.

Then the part where my somethingness topples over into the abyss that some insist is nothing at all, but: But the stuff we started out as.

And how preposterous does that sound?


Nothing having ever evolved doesn't sound like a fairy tale stories. This sounds like relative facts. But still a source upon if we throw again a book at someone like the road to evolution or something. Than there might possibly only one sort of element people are forgetting in the mind. Carbon.
(Our object of desire isn't to change current belief systems or complicate already convoluted streams of information; we're not trying to even prove ourselves in anyway. We're just human beings similar to yourself. Not superior, the same. Ancestors of the lost world. The conflicts of beliefs you face in your world, are not only the conflict of self yet life, we cannot compel such conflicts to other's will for any self-benefit. The true goal reached here is there is nothing we can say nor do that can convince anyone else of what they don't know for themselves already. And, when the time calls, and you are ready, the barriers of awareness will expand and such confirmed information will be easily perceived, and known to them! Allow them to seek and find out when they are prepared. All will arrive to light in no time.) Ego sum via veritas et vita;Amesha Spenta;Vohu Mano; Allow all things measurable, microbial and astronomical to remain infinite, unchanged and arrive to light.
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