Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

For intuitive and critical discussions, from spirituality to theological doctrines. Fair warning: because the subject matter is personal, moderation is strict.

Moderator: Dan~

Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:29 pm

Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

The Bible teaches one to start a spiritual journey from the
bottom, i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches the second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are one.

This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from the Dwait stage, where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities, graduates to Vishishta Adwait, a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/fraction of Him and finally reached to the Adwait stage where he merges himself with that infinite consciousness.

Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.

John Lennon. It seems to me that the only true Christians were the Gnostics, who believed in self-knowledge, I.E. becoming Gods
themselves, reaching the Christ within, the light is the truth. Turn on the light. All the better to see you my dear.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they
are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the
key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your
tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I think Jesus hated the idol worshipers of the traditional supernatural based religions and wanted to put us on a better and more naturalistic Gnostic Christian path of seeking knowledge and wisdom through Gnosis; that being a deeper knowledge of the self and others.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGY ... e=youtu.be
User avatar
Greatest I am
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1820
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:52 am

Jesus should probably have avoided walking on water, raising the dead, healing the sick, returning from the dead himself, making psychic claims and repeatedly placing himself as aligned with the OT if he hated believing in the supernatural. Of course these are perhaps merely the stories of his followers only. But then that's what's in the book we're dealing with.

I don't see much evidence of his hate of those with supernatural belief either. I can see ways to interpret things he says in gnostic terms, but that is not the same as saying he hates those who believe in supernatural things. And of course many gnostics believed in supernatural things. Though some gnostics will say those gnostics are not true gnostics. Which is a lot like how other Christian groups have viewed each other. Hatefully.

In any case I do see some instances where Jesus got pissed off. I don't see much to think he wanted people to hate any particular group. There is a fascinating speech where he says only people who hate their families can come to him. Though a literal interpretaiton of this is contradicted by many quotes where he says on should not hate ones brother or family. Reconciling that is not my problem, but I would guess he or the authors meant not letting people be stopped by their families if their families did not love God, however one interprets God.

But overall he seemed to emphasize love and acceptance.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:36 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Jesus should probably have avoided walking on water, raising the dead, healing the sick, returning from the dead himself, making psychic claims and repeatedly placing himself as aligned with the OT if he hated believing in the supernatural. Of course these are perhaps merely the stories of his followers only. But then that's what's in the book we're dealing with.

I don't see much evidence of his hate of those with supernatural belief either. I can see ways to interpret things he says in gnostic terms, but that is not the same as saying he hates those who believe in supernatural things. And of course many gnostics believed in supernatural things. Though some gnostics will say those gnostics are not true gnostics. Which is a lot like how other Christian groups have viewed each other. Hatefully.

In any case I do see some instances where Jesus got pissed off. I don't see much to think he wanted people to hate any particular group. There is a fascinating speech where he says only people who hate their families can come to him. Though a literal interpretaiton of this is contradicted by many quotes where he says on should not hate ones brother or family. Reconciling that is not my problem, but I would guess he or the authors meant not letting people be stopped by their families if their families did not love God, however one interprets God.

But overall he seemed to emphasize love and acceptance.


Scriptures have Jesus showing his hate in a number of places.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jesus also said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath and one can logically extrapolate from that that he would also say that religions and Gods were made for man and not man for them.

If you think Gnostic Christians believe in the supernatural, you are not looking very deeply into what we believe. Here is an example.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------
The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Further, we do not read our myths literally as they were written to put against the bible when all knew that myths should not be read literally. The last link shows the Gnostic Christian view.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL
User avatar
Greatest I am
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1820
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:20 am


Greatest I
am wrote:
The Bible teaches one to start a spiritual journey from the
bottom, i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches the second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are one.


Satan's first two lies spoken to humankind, namely: “You shall not surely die,” and “You will be like God
The twin lies of human divinity and immortality have been Satan’s foundation for his counterfeit religion throughout the ages.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

Old Norse Proverb
User avatar
A Shieldmaiden
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1990
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:18 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Scriptures have Jesus showing his hate in a number of places.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
I don't see that as necessarily hatred. It's a criticism, sure.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Even less here. Again, a criticism.

Jesus also said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath and one can logically extrapolate from that that he would also say that religions and Gods were made for man and not man for them.
Is that hatred?

If you think Gnostic Christians believe in the supernatural, you are not looking very deeply into what we believe. Here is an example.
I've shown you quite a while ago that one of the gnostics you quoted had supernatural beliefs. Even the notion of the Demiurge has supernatural interpretations.

The quotes you had about Gnostics not believing in the supernatural have to do with NOT hating the material. It is not mutually exclusive believing in what gets called the supernatural and accepting, loving what is called material.



Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Again, I don't see how this takes a stand on the supernatural.

I also notice that you quote from the NT to support the idea that Jesus hated people. But the NT has supernatural events in it involving Jesus, which you did not respond to.

Further, we do not read our myths literally as they were written to put against the bible when all knew that myths should not be read literally.
I do not think the NT was intended as a myth.



Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."
Origen believed in the pre-existence of souls. For example.

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.
Well, they are quoting from the NT which has stories told about hte miracles of Jesus. And these are not told in the mythical form of most cultures, even the OT's genesis. They are talking about a guy, over here, walking around, who he knew, what he did, and then a miracle happens.

Compare that to Greek myths or any cultures myths. It is an entirely different kind of text. Which doesn't mean I think that Jesus was X or not X. I am just pointing out that 1) Gnostics have a variety of beliefs, some supernatural. Some gnostics, it seems, will then say, those guys are not real gnostics. Fine, Christianty and other religions are littered with this kind inter-sect criticism. 2) Jesus predominantly focuses on forgiveness and love.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Venture » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:49 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:
Greatest I
am wrote:
The Bible teaches one to start a spiritual journey from the
bottom, i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches the second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are one.


Satan's first two lies spoken to humankind, namely: “You shall not surely die,” and “You will be like God
The twin lies of human divinity and immortality have been Satan’s foundation for his counterfeit religion throughout the ages.


The Bible teaches us to accept the truth of scripture, the teachings of Christ, and your imperfect human nature in relation to God's plan (law and prophecies in history). Not sure where to find its emphasis on starting from the bottom and becoming like God. Shieldmaden is right, our souls and impressions of personality on future generations may be immortal, but humans are not immortal. Nor can we speak or understand God the way you seem to think we can, only the other way around, as God is the Lord of language and breathes his message through us.

I'm sure Satan, when he was Lucifer, thought of himself as one with God, being just as or more powerful than God. That is his greatest deception, through Pride and Envy, and later on, hatred. Jesus barely mentions his hate, maybe his disgust towards the places of Baal and Moloch, and shows brief instances of temper because of a defiling of the Church.

You are presenting the same links and evidence as in other threads for your personal God complex, without demonstrating any knowledge of scripture and faith in Jesus Christ's teachings. You should be more careful comparing Christianity with Hinduism, as well as showing your blatant disgust towards some of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. The marriage example is funny, especially when comparing the Hindu's doctrines of marriage to Christ's. If I am to do unto others as I would have them do to myself, I would tell you to keep reading and reaching for deeper levels of faith than this Gnosticism you're so obsessed with.
"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
"
User avatar
Venture
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:12 pm
Location: Canada


Return to Religion and Spirituality



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users