Animalism, Earthism

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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Jakob » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:36 pm

The correct statements in the socialist discourse are: there is happiness made out of wealth, and I want this happiness.
The capitalist also states these things.

The capitalist then uses his brain to figure out a way to create something for which others will pile wealth onto him.
He spends some years in a basement working for nothing and then, if he has the quality, he succeeds.

The socialist uses his gut and runs around arguing that he ought to also have the wealth. It doesnt occur to him to start a production process.
Initiative is not something the socialist will ever take. Historical necessity, the whole Idea of class struggle as an absolute which must and will be obeyed is a sublimated compulsive neuroticism. It is no coincidence that Afghanistan was the hallmark of Socialism and then switched to what it is now.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Jakob » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:45 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:One possibly good question here for ya: was it the state or capitalists who initially figured out and continue to figure out more productive and powerful ways to organize labour?

Is the capitalist a parasite of the worker, that genious of production engineer that he is, or is the state bureaucrat the parasite of the capitalist's ideas (such as we see in China there)?

This, as clean as this is, is completely out of the socialists reach.
To my astonishment, I must say. It has taken the past two or three years to drive that fact home to me.

Promethean - you could not bear knowing how absolute the proof of the socialists myopic greed is which has been given in the past two years. You would literally break down and cry, lie sobbing on the floor - in joy. Because seeing it would mean your liberation from it.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Silhouette » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:50 pm

Jakob wrote:As I explained before, capitalism is about creation.

I hate to need to point out the obvious... but what's this profit incentive then (which founds Capitalism and socialists find markedly suspect)?

If it wasn't about money for Capitalists and *if* Socialists only cared about money, why not give it to them?

Except Socialists care less about money than Capitalists - they care about the whole project, the whole team including the leader but not just the leader, they care about the creative ones who are made financially impotent but would otherwise be able to join the creative ones, and they care about the non-creative ones who do have the money who operate solely to maintain their position even at the cost of the project and the team.

Keep telling yourself that lies are true and the truth is a lie, but it won't make it any more the case in reality.

promethean75 wrote:
No socialist was ever witnessed talking about anything besides how to get more money from other people.


that! that right there. it's comments like that, that i don't know what to do with. is this guy kidding? he's got to be. he's got it so perfectly backwards, it's got to be contrived... part of a joke... he's pulling my leg. shirley he is. he can't be THAT stupid. i refuse to believe it, so i've got to humor him. yes, that's what i must do.

He quite clearly is kidding and baiting, and I'm having as fun of a time as he is.

It provides quite the convenient counterpoint to explain things in the wake of stupidity and misunderstanding - he's just giving more ammo to the better cause, so I say keep up the good work, Jakob.

Even in the consideration that someone so obviously trolling was serious, I like the intent to invert understanding even if it amounts to nonsense in practice - it's always paramount to keep your senses sharpened to the possibility that you are wrong.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Jakob » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:50 pm

A liberation into thought.

But - power sets goals.
Liberation is such a goal - it is only set by sufficient power.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby promethean75 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:51 pm

" you'd notice no difference in anything - not production or distribution - if he were absent."

Yes, I'm sure they would all spontaneously coalesce in that particular formation and organization structure anyways. "Ah!" you say, "but we don't need the filthy capitalists anyway... The state can do it!"

Ok, so now we are arguing about who takes that role, not if the role exists or is productive.

One possibly good question here for ya: was it the state or capitalists who initially figured out and continue to figure out more productive and powerful ways to organize labour?

Is the capitalist a parasite of the worker, that genious of production engineer that he is, or is the state bureaucrat the parasite of the capitalist's ideas (such as we see in China there)?


it's human nature to invent ways to produce more abundantly and efficiently, and there is nothing exclusive to a 'capitalist' that gives him some special ability to figure shit like that out, that workers can't figure out themselves. in fact, the workers would sooner figure it out because it's their labor and time that's at stake.

as far as organizing and managing production, workers are perfectly capable of doing so. the soviets are an example of this. democratically run syndicates in which people collectively determine the best way to organize production based on the circumstances.

what you aren't realizing is that a capitalist doesn't have some magical talent which gives him the ability to modify or enhance some mode of production. it doesn't take a capitalist to figure out an assembly line would greatly increase the yield of product, or that a fuel produced from corn might be more efficient and cost effective. of course the capitalist is trying to figure shit like this out because he wants to increase his profits... but the point is, a capitalist ISN"T REQUIRED to figure this shit out.

the massive explosion of productivity that characterized the industrial revolution is not something that wouldn't have happened had there been no capitalists around.

i dunno man... it's like you have this celebrity image of the capitalist in your head like he's a fucking superhero or something. i haven't seen hysteria like this since ayn rand came to 'merica and wrote the fountainhead. jesus man. is this what those rap videos are doing to you? it's the gold chains and triple fat gooses, right? they gotcha. i know they did. they put a spell on you, mang.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Jakob » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:53 pm

Silhouette wrote:
Jakob wrote:As I explained before, capitalism is about creation.

I hate to need to point out the obvious... but what's this profit incentive then (which founds Capitalism and socialists find markedly suspect)?

Silhouette, go back and reread my posts, read them aloud a few times.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Jakob » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:57 pm

It is hard to believe you are honest in your debilitatingly bad reading.
BUT THAT IS SOCIALISM.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:26 pm

promethean75 wrote:
No socialist was ever witnessed talking about anything besides how to get more money from other people.


that! that right there. it's comments like that, that i don't know what to do with. is this guy kidding? he's got to be. he's got it so perfectly backwards, it's got to be contrived... part of a joke... he's pulling my leg. shirley he is. he can't be THAT stupid. i refuse to believe it, so i've got to humor him. yes, that's what i must do.

The neocortex eroded revealing the amygdalal stump.

That's the info Marx was never privy to and I can only imagine his laughter if science had sufficiently evolved to offer him the last piece tying all his ideas together.

it's the gold chains and triple fat gooses, right?

More likely too many aluminum teapots. Or maybe frying pans after slowly consuming all the teflon.

Jakob wrote:A liberation into thought.

But - power sets goals.
Liberation is such a goal - it is only set by sufficient power.

:confusion-scratchheadyellow:



I mean :confusion-shrug:
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:37 pm

Jakob wrote:Capitalists tend to be grounded in the desire to produce great things and benefit from that.

Are you referring to Wall Street or sweat shops?
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Jakob » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:50 pm

im referring to the musical instruments used by Frank Zappa and all of his studio equipment.
Promethean, are you truly that hollow?
Do you truly not value your own values?




-why being and not rather nonbeing?
-because capitalism.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:52 pm

Silhouette wrote:He quite clearly is kidding and baiting, and I'm having as fun of a time as he is.

It provides quite the convenient counterpoint to explain things in the wake of stupidity and misunderstanding - he's just giving more ammo to the better cause, so I say keep up the good work, Jakob.

Even in the consideration that someone so obviously trolling was serious, I like the intent to invert understanding even if it amounts to nonsense in practice - it's always paramount to keep your senses sharpened to the possibility that you are wrong.

I don't buy it. He's no different than 13 years ago. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=153476

That's a good thread btw.

Dunamis wrote:
Jakob wrote:In other words, you're compimenting the camel.
You don't have the creative genius or the understanding of Nietzsche to challenge camel to become a lion.


Forgive me if I don't participate in your derivative zoological fantasy. I am not a Nietzschean. I have no desire to become a "lion", (to get that self-bestowed merit badge), but only chuckle at people claiming to be "lions", (or finding themselves to be "geniuses"), yet display no such characteristics at all. If you believe you are a genius, keep telling yourself that. No doubt the thought is nurturing. If you believe that I lack your creative genius, that too will comfort. I'll let you Nietzscheans fight it out amougst yourselves, like inter-denominational squablers, the Church of Saint Nietzsche vs. The Chapel of Mother Nietzsche. Who has inherited the divine Truth? (Personally I believe Sauwelios has a much firmer grasp of Nietzsche's conceptions. He has not watered down the doctrine to an "acceptable" level). Meanwhile, my critique Nietzsche is as it has always been, at the level of power. He simply is not as powerful as he thought he was, nor claimed, because he misunderstood power. That his followers (of every stripe) suffer from the same delusion is really of no surprise.


He's an absolutist/objectivist/Nietzschean fundamentalist/whatever you wanna call it. Always has been and apparently always will be.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Silhouette » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 pm

Jakob wrote:Silhouette, go back and reread my posts, read them aloud a few times.

It is hard to believe you are honest in your debilitatingly bad reading.
BUT THAT IS SOCIALISM.

I can only assume you mean to refer to this one concession that you posted while I was writing my post:

Jakob wrote:The correct statements in the socialist discourse are: there is happiness made out of wealth, and I want this happiness.
The capitalist also states these things.

Between the time I started writing and the time I pressed submit, I apologise profusely for not checking what has thus far been flat-out raging against that which you can't/won't understand - and simply putting words in the mouths of others.

I had had no prior indication that you were going to randomly provide the least bit of honesty at that time, I am sorry.

Yes the capitalist is after money, I am so glad you admit this. Any creation, which is more often not present in the Capitalist but in the people he hires to realise the way in which he wants to make money, which is often the same way that others have been doing already, is no less present in the Socialist - however much you insist it isn't. You can tell other people how they think until you're blue in the face. More often than you seem to respect, it is the Socialist grafting in his basement to create, but lacking the funds to realise his efforts, and knowing this is the case for countless others who would otherwise be able to contribute their creations but cannot due to the demands of the capitalist system that they must waste their time and energy monkeying away for a pittance for someone else. So inefficient - and most likely intentionally so, because those benefiting don't want the competition. "Perfect competition", the classical liberal ideal would even things out, even if everyone was all better off as a result, but "fortunately" the capitalist system keeps down the competition as much as it can.

The Socialist can in fact be more inclined to want to create and contribute with no thought of reward. I am first hand testimony so don't you dare tell me I am not what I am.

The reality imposed on them by the Capitalist system must eventually dawn on them, however, that they cannot give freely out of love - they must demand that others give to them in exchange for what they offer - the last thing they want to do. They are often not fit for the capitalist environment of demanding things in return for a contribution, and sometimes a non-Capitalist system of distribution is all that can work.

Socialists come in other shapes and sizes as well: for example they can volunteer to help out a cause and find their hard work is barely compensated enough to live the most basic of lives, irrespective of the effort that they put in, and even though employers can clearly afford more generosity. They are being taken advantage of due to their more giving and loving nature - by Capitalists. In my workplace, I see workers stressed out of their heads all day every day, before and after "official" working hours, meanwhile the upper echelons casually trot around, laughing and joking, on their phones, and occasionally having a chat in meetings. I am to suppose that their sheer love and creativity is so intensely packed into the short amounts of time that they're actually working, that they can afford all this leisure, and us workers simply can't imagine the magnitude of their next-level abilities.

There are so many counter examples to your myopic and generalised accusations, where you would have vast swathes of a population be reduced to one simple dismissal that just so happens to embody the worse case scenario imagined by the biased accuser who clearly never even attempted to understand the people unto whom he projects that which he probably just hates in himself.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:00 am

"it's human nature to invent ways to produce more abundantly and efficiently,"

Well listen, if this is the level of lazyness you're gonna bring into this, then I'm gonna stop trying too.

Soviet Russia what?!?
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Serendipper » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:07 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:"it's human nature to invent ways to produce more abundantly and efficiently,"

Well listen, if this is the level of lazyness you're gonna bring into this, then I'm gonna stop trying too.

Soviet Russia what?!?

You've been trying? :shock:
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby promethean75 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:16 am

jakob wrote:im referring to the musical instruments used by Frank Zappa and all of his studio equipment.
Promethean, are you truly that hollow?
Do you truly not value your own values?


don't... you... dare, jakob milikowski.

you see what he did there, dipper? he's using my own guy against me. that sonofabitch will stop at nothing. until this day i hadn't thought jakob was capable of sinking to such lows... but now i know. i didn't want to believe it when i saw it. i thought 'this is just a typo... he was trying to say beta kappa or something.' i even refreshed the page, thinking i was hallucinating.

now you listen to me, jakob milikowski. frank was a musician and composer, not a philosopher. you know damn well what you're doing is not fair. how was he to know? he grew up during the red scare when that cock sucker McCarthy had everybody stirred up about the evils of communism. and in fact, frank saw through that ass rocket and knew he was up to no good. want proof... go to 8:59. now i sincerely believe that had frank learned about socialism in a different environment, he'd not find it as reprehensible. but in any case, duddin't matter where you put frank. communism, capitalism, feudalism, whatever. he'd be doing the same thing, because whoever was in charge would see to it that the maestro was given all the resources he needed to compose.

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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby promethean75 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:23 am

Soviet Russia what?!?


soviets, dude. worker's councils. not the country... the governing structures that oversaw production. tighten up, rengel.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Serendipper » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:44 am

Frank said JE Hoover and Raygun should be on birdshit mtn too. I know zip about zappa, so I don't get the anti-socialist allusion. (Seems a sharp guy tho)
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:14 pm

"because whoever was in charge would see to it that the maestro was given all the resources he needed to compose."

Yes, that is totally how censorship regimes in communist states works. They totally would have been like, just: "listen to that guy. Give him whatever he needs! In fact, half rations for the miners so we can get him the guitar today."

Iss like... I know it FEELS good, but you must still think young one, no matter how seductive she is, always you must force yourself to think!

........

I'm... I'm a little stunned. Do you have any actual grasp of how soviets worked? Or is all history capitalist propaganda?
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby promethean75 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:47 pm

rengel wrote:Yes, that is totally how censorship regimes in communist states works. They totally would have been like, just: "listen to that guy. Give him whatever he needs! In fact, half rations for the miners so we can get him the guitar today."


this is how it would go down. mao, stalin, castro and the rest of the team would be seated in the theater loge. zappa's musicians would be ready at their stations. the lights would dim, and the maestro would enter the stage as a hush fell over the audience. he would approach the marshall stack centered beside bozzio's drum kit and pick up the golden baton. for a brief moment he would study it, turning it over in his hands and rubbing it's smooth finish. once he felt satisfied with the quality of the instrument, he would turn to face his musicians, who now stand at attention. the band is ready. frank would slowly turn and look up at the loge. stalin would raise his hand and gesture for the band to proceed. after one last inspection, frank would issue the command: 'achtung!', and the band would come to life. within seconds the theater would be totally consumed by it's energy, staring in amazement, entranced by the strange new dynamic sounds. it would take only one song, and the nation would never be the same again. institutions for the study of his music would be built, orders for mandatory participation of theater performances would be issued to all citizens, and december 21rst would become a international holiday.

one song, rengel. just one... and not even the real hard stuff. just the easy, teenage new york version is all it would take to revolutionize the entire world:

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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:44 am

Right, sorry, those guys (and the current ones) weren't REALLY communists...

holy shit...
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:45 am

Please, do tell us about the soviets.

Enlighten me.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Serendipper » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:29 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Please, do tell us about the soviets.

Enlighten me.


Please play a game with me where I will simply never admit to losing. I've defined myself as winner of all games before any games begin. Please play with me. :animals-pig:

FIFY. You're welcome.

The soviets, right here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=194777
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby promethean75 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:34 pm

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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Silhouette » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:39 pm

promethean75 wrote:A workers' council is a form of political and economic organization in which a single local administrative division, such as a municipality or a county, is governed by a council made up of temporary and instantly revocable delegates elected in the region's workplaces. A variation is a soldiers' council, when the delegates are chosen amongst (mutinous) soldiers. A mix of workers and soldiers also existed (like the 1918 German Arbeiter- und Soldatenrat).

In a system with temporary and instantly revocable delegates, workers decide on what their agenda is and what their needs are. They also mandate a temporary delegate to divulge and pursue them. The temporary delegates are elected among the workers themselves, can be instantly revoked if they betray their mandate, and are supposed to change frequently. The delegates act as messengers, carrying and interchanging the intention of the groups of workers.

On a larger scale, a group of delegates may in turn elect a delegate in a higher position to pursue their mandate, and so on, until the top delegates are running the industrial system of a state. In such a system, decision power rises from bottom to top from the agendas of the workers themselves, and there is no decision imposition from the top, as would happen in the case of a power seizure by a bureaucratic layer that is immune to instant revocation.

"Sounds like its literal opposite, Authoritarianism" - says every pro-capitalist ever.

"Sounds like communist theory, whose Authoritarian ways have been proven to fail in practice" - says every pro-capitalist ever.
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Re: Animalism, Earthism

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:12 pm

Oh. I thought you were referring to actual things that existed.
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