The defamation of socialism

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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Bob » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:34 am

Serendipper wrote:Oh yes, I hate that the left focuses on Russian collusion and appealing to grave threats to humanity through climate change while legitimate perils of poverty and lack of education and healthcare exist. Their ploy seems transparent to me, but I hope it's not too transparent to everyone else. I wonder if Chomsky is more sly than I thought. Maybe he doesn't buy climate change, but knows it's the surest way to slay the real dragon.

What I find about the whole discussion today is that it is taking place on the wings and people in the center are becoming more and more confused. The secret agendas of the various people involved are not so secret as they would have us believe since it is often just an overdoing of what everybody does. If you don’t have a political agenda, you are criticized by both the right and left, even though your agenda may be just getting through the day.

Green is the new Blue. The easiest way to make the country Blue is to first make it Green ;)
I’m not familiar with all these colour definitions, after all, I’m a Brit in Germany, and I’m not so sure they actually represent anything that we can grasp.

For half a century Chomsky battled the corps with nary a mention of climate, then suddenly he jumped on the climate bandwagon and shutup about his most passionate crusade, only in the last handful of years.
Chomsky is fighting for the lost cause of socialism, which only works when the country is thriving. The problem is that when the country is thriving, most people don’t want socialism. It is when the country isn’t prosperous that people turn to socialism, but that only means that they fall foul of the secret agendas of their leaders, who are often dictators.

But the working people of the future will be better equipped to handle it. We're in a transition period from scarcity to abundance and such demands social reforms that those of old just can't embrace because all they know is hardship and what it takes to overcome it.

I’m not so sure they will be better equipped. The illusion of continual growth is slowly losing its appeal. People are finding that the elderly are continually and evermore falling into poverty because their precautions have proven to be inadequate, or haven’t kept up with the cost of living. There, and of course, single parents, who have to work at three jobs to get through, is really where the society is failing, rather than with those who have a regular job. In Europe, the children that suffer under the poverty of their parents have a chance to get back on the ladder, which seems to be less possible in the USA. So that may be an area that needs more attention.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:45 pm

Bob wrote:
Serendipper wrote:Oh yes, I hate that the left focuses on Russian collusion and appealing to grave threats to humanity through climate change while legitimate perils of poverty and lack of education and healthcare exist. Their ploy seems transparent to me, but I hope it's not too transparent to everyone else. I wonder if Chomsky is more sly than I thought. Maybe he doesn't buy climate change, but knows it's the surest way to slay the real dragon.

What I find about the whole discussion today is that it is taking place on the wings and people in the center are becoming more and more confused. The secret agendas of the various people involved are not so secret as they would have us believe since it is often just an overdoing of what everybody does. If you don’t have a political agenda, you are criticized by both the right and left, even though your agenda may be just getting through the day.

How do the extremes criticize the center for not having an agenda? I'm confused.

Green is the new Blue. The easiest way to make the country Blue is to first make it Green ;)
I’m not familiar with all these colour definitions, after all, I’m a Brit in Germany, and I’m not so sure they actually represent anything that we can grasp.

Oh, well, I can help:

Red = all the red parties in history = communists, nazis, various totalitarians, the RedCoats defeated in the Revolutionary War in America (the Tories), class feudal structured societies, Republicans (republics), etc. Essentially, top-down governments.

Blue = worker's rights = socialism, democracy, unions, etc. Bottom-up governments.

Green = climate and environmental awareness.

Green has been merged with Blue, but now appears to be splitting into factions where Blue = economic conservatism + social liberalism (like Angela Merkel, Hillary Clinton) while Green = progressive = economic and social liberalism + environmental concern.

For half a century Chomsky battled the corps with nary a mention of climate, then suddenly he jumped on the climate bandwagon and shutup about his most passionate crusade, only in the last handful of years.
Chomsky is fighting for the lost cause of socialism, which only works when the country is thriving. The problem is that when the country is thriving, most people don’t want socialism. It is when the country isn’t prosperous that people turn to socialism, but that only means that they fall foul of the secret agendas of their leaders, who are often dictators.

That's an interesting point. Yes, that's what happened: from 1930 to 1980 america enjoyed the prosperity of socialism, but the prosperity caused people to let their guard down while the Reds slipped in the back door. Perhaps taxation and regulation became somewhat overbearing too, so the Reds had some justification. But the cycle continues with the disaster the Reds have made that will usher the Bluish Greens into power.

But the working people of the future will be better equipped to handle it. We're in a transition period from scarcity to abundance and such demands social reforms that those of old just can't embrace because all they know is hardship and what it takes to overcome it.

I’m not so sure they will be better equipped. The illusion of continual growth is slowly losing its appeal.

Even Milton Friedman admitted that perpetually growth isn't a requirement.

People are finding that the elderly are continually and evermore falling into poverty because their precautions have proven to be inadequate, or haven’t kept up with the cost of living.

Welfare for the rich demands low interest rates (QE, money printing) so the elderly can't earn interest on savings.

There, and of course, single parents, who have to work at three jobs to get through, is really where the society is failing, rather than with those who have a regular job. In Europe, the children that suffer under the poverty of their parents have a chance to get back on the ladder, which seems to be less possible in the USA. So that may be an area that needs more attention.

Yes, Bernie Sanders intends to fix that.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:20 pm

phyllo wrote:
The "Fallacy of relative privation" is the dismissal of arguments due to the existence of more important arguments. Saying the US doesn't have it as bad as other countries seems to fit this, especially in response to the argument that the US could have it better. The US having room for improvement isn't a failure to appreciate what it does have.
I gave him a link to the Democracy Index and he knows that the US ranks 25th out of 167 countries. He still makes this bizarre statement: " ... but the US does not have democracy."

Phyllo can't seem to understand:

All 55 counties in West Virginia voted for Bernie, but Hillary won the state.

3 million more votes were cast for Hillary, but Trump won the election.

In 2000, Gore won 1/2 million more votes, but lost the election.

The US does not have democracy.

Voter disenfranchisement is rife.

There are more democrats than republicans https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wash ... red-voters

Republicans wouldn't be in power in democracy existed.

If the US ranks 25th, then the 26th - 167th countries also do not have democracy.

Why is this so hard for you to get through your hard head? Because it conflicts with your propagandish agenda????? Yes.

Your fallacies are meddling with my freedom, canuckie. :angry-cussingblack:

Get therapy.

You should consider it.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Silhouette » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:39 pm

phyllo wrote:I gave him a link to the Democracy Index and he knows that the US ranks 25th out of 167 countries. He still makes this bizarre statement: " ... but the US does not have democracy."

I suppose a strict definition of democracy as only "Full Democracy", with everything else having no (full) democracy, then the statement wouldn't be so bizarre. But it also wouldn't be very helpful in distinguishing flawed democracies (as the US is classified) from Hybrid and Authoritarian regimes, which do have definite differences. If your argument is that such strict criteria to qualify as Democratic is bizarre, I would still say that your argument would not obviously be valid - at least as much as you appear to be making out. I think the things I've pointed out are worth consideration before we rush to conclude that the US has acceptable democracy, if it can be said to have any.

Whether or not a country has democracy, according to the Democracy Index that you linked, depended on certain factors:
1) Electoral process and pluralism: yes it has a process whether or not it works, and with every other president getting in with less voters that's a dubious one. The first-past-the-post system is a hugely flawed one that dominates US states, which encourages tactical voting for the main competition against the party you least want in - which in practice devolves into a two party system, which barely qualifies as pluralism. The US still got 9.17 for this for some reason...
2) Civil Liberties: yeah there's due process, but with the largest prison population per capita in the world, nearly 1% of its adult population, that's some major evidence against US civil liberties. The US still got 8.24, hmm...
3) Political Participation: the US chooses Tuesday for its election day, which is only a public holiday for a few states. Not ideal for the unskilled worker with multiple weekday jobs for one. There's some token ways around it, but I seem to remember hearing a few arguments against the US encouraging voting participation. It shows in the consistent 50-odd percentage of voter turnout, but that translated to 7.78 (~78%) in the democracy index for some reason.
4) Functioning of Government 7.14 & 5) Political Culture 7.50: not impressive.

The average of nearly 80% democratic seems more like 70% or less considering the above, which would put them down from around 25th to around 50th (assuming all other nations below it don't also deserve lower scores). But I dunno, only half the population participating in a FPTP voting system via electoral colleges to supercede the popular vote for 1 of 2 prescribed options... there's reason to be hesitant to call that democratic.

Count your blessings, get therapy (and get back to work) is the current status quo. Not ideal in my opinion. Gratefulness is so important I agree, but so is realism and even idealism. No need to invoke the fallacy of relative privation to drown out the real and the ideal.

phyllo wrote:You don't think the differences have been shown? It's just PR?

Huge differences have been shown, although not necessarily in the beginnings of new and different economic models. And what follows the beginnings isn't solely down to which economic model you're using - is my point.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:43 am

Silhouette wrote:2) Civil Liberties: yeah there's due process, but with the largest prison population per capita in the world, nearly 1% of its adult population, that's some major evidence against US civil liberties. The US still got 8.24, hmm...


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Prisons are concentration camps for undesirables.

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did." https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics ... index.html

3) Political Participation: the US chooses Tuesday for its election day, which is only a public holiday for a few states. Not ideal for the unskilled worker with multiple weekday jobs for one. There's some token ways around it, but I seem to remember hearing a few arguments against the US encouraging voting participation. It shows in the consistent 50-odd percentage of voter turnout, but that translated to 7.78 (~78%) in the democracy index for some reason.


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The youth only vote when they like a candidate, otherwise they don't bother.

4) Functioning of Government 7.14 & 5) Political Culture 7.50: not impressive.

Coincidentally, this hit the news today: The Oppression of the Supermajority

The average of nearly 80% democratic seems more like 70% or less considering the above, which would put them down from around 25th to around 50th (assuming all other nations below it don't also deserve lower scores). But I dunno, only half the population participating in a FPTP voting system via electoral colleges to supercede the popular vote for 1 of 2 prescribed options... there's reason to be hesitant to call that democratic.

Yes no kidding.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Jakob » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:55 pm

One either has love or socialism.

I wrote some more but this captures the essence.



Anyone who lets go of socialism does so out of love.
Ive seen this happen several times. Witnessing it is among the most wonderful experiences one can have, like I would imagine seeing the birth of a star.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:14 am

Jakob wrote:One either has love or socialism.

I wrote some more but this captures the essence.

Anyone who lets go of socialism does so out of love.
Ive seen this happen several times. Witnessing it is among the most wonderful experiences one can have, like I would imagine seeing the birth of a star.

Yes, time to let go of socialism and embrace our love of the servitude, suffering, and impoverishment of our fellow people for our own selfish gain.

Gain wealth forgetting all but self!
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:04 am

Serendipper wrote:
Jakob wrote:One either has love or socialism.

I wrote some more but this captures the essence.

Anyone who lets go of socialism does so out of love.
Ive seen this happen several times. Witnessing it is among the most wonderful experiences one can have, like I would imagine seeing the birth of a star.

Yes, time to let go of socialism and embrace our love of the servitude, suffering, and impoverishment of our fellow people for our own selfish gain.

Gain wealth forgetting all but self!
I actually think a better strategy is to work on the self-interest of the wealthy. They actually feel worse also. In societies where the gap is huge all parties feel more stress. This doesn't necessarily prove socialism is the best, but pure free markets have lower quality of life at all levels.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:14 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
Jakob wrote:One either has love or socialism.

I wrote some more but this captures the essence.

Anyone who lets go of socialism does so out of love.
Ive seen this happen several times. Witnessing it is among the most wonderful experiences one can have, like I would imagine seeing the birth of a star.

Yes, time to let go of socialism and embrace our love of the servitude, suffering, and impoverishment of our fellow people for our own selfish gain.

Gain wealth forgetting all but self!
I actually think a better strategy is to work on the self-interest of the wealthy. They actually feel worse also. In societies where the gap is huge all parties feel more stress. This doesn't necessarily prove socialism is the best, but pure free markets have lower quality of life at all levels.

That's an acceptable loss to them so long as it means a relative difference in wealth. Remember the baby video?

Around 10:25

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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:28 pm

Serendipper wrote:That's an acceptable loss to them so long as it means a relative difference in wealth. Remember the baby video?

Around 10:25

Actually I don't think they are aware of it. I think they are running on automatic pilot and assume they will be happier with more. I don't think the guilt trip is every going to work, for two reasons. Most of the rich will view it as the best possible solution - through some kind of trickle down proccess and/or they earned it, it is justified fantasy. They have been rationalizing this for a long time, and the emotional stakes are enormous. Two, the true elites, the ones who frame the debates, do not give a fuck about anyone. I think many rich do, but not the true elites. They have no empathy and actually enjoy being cruel. Shaming them will fall on deaf ears and they in turn will keep spewing out justifications to the other outsider rich to compete with your guilt trip. But if you can show many of the still human rich that they are actually hurting themselves and they will not be as happy in those huge economic gap societies - which research actually shows to be the case - that might make them notice their own experience in new ways and consider changing.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:52 pm

Right, they are not aware of it, just like the kids are not aware of it.

It's not the rich I'm worried about; it's the poor. The rich are, have been, or will be coddled which generally works against the backwards thinking.

The poor are the problem.

The rich want to raise their own taxes for the public good, but the poor will not let them.

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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:51 pm

Serendipper wrote:The rich want to raise their own taxes for the public good, but the poor will not let them.
The rich control lobbying, both parties, the media. I find it hard to imagine they cannot manipulate the poor into being positive about taxing the rich. And of course the rich can always pay extra. There certainly are some rich who are willing, but not most, not a majority. Or it would happen.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:50 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:The rich want to raise their own taxes for the public good, but the poor will not let them.
The rich control lobbying, both parties, the media. I find it hard to imagine they cannot manipulate the poor into being positive about taxing the rich. And of course the rich can always pay extra. There certainly are some rich who are willing, but not most, not a majority. Or it would happen.

That's a good point, but I'm unable to identify these people. Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are the richest and are trying to raise their own taxes. The Patriotic Millionaires are trying to raise their own taxes. You see in the chart that people making $100k+ want to raise their own taxes.

It's probably that politicians know that proposing the raising of taxes is political suicide and not really a matter of lobbying. The rich could try all they want, but the voters would vote them out.

The poor uneducated people are the problem.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby promethean75 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:12 pm

serendipper wrote:The poor uneducated people are the problem.


that is entirely correct, and it's marxism 101. the lumpen proletariat and/or the working class without conscience or interests. but there is a new specter haunting the first world countries... and that's the millennial generation, a generation that is not as susceptible to the forces of indoctrination that have held the prior working class generations under the yoke. the old conservative minded 'backward masses', as marx called them - the epitome being that good 'ol boy in the pic you posted - are slowly, and finally, dying off, to make way for a more progressively minded working class. atheism is on the rise, environmental conscience is on the rise, attention to poverty and famine is on the rise, and all matters that demand radical new approaches to governing the world. one of the seeds of capitalism's own destruction is just this new dawning age of humanism and enlightenment; the forces that once kept the backward masses under the yoke no longer wield the power that they once did. we aren't seeing the conservative working class stock we once saw prior to the 21rst century... who were born already thumping a bible and ready to work a 9 to 5 cuz they gwine go up to heaven if they do the right thing. it's over for these knuckleheads. we've got a new and improved working class not so easily fooled, see, and there's no more philosophers to cook up some bullshit to keep em brainwashed and obedient. everything that capitalism relied on to keep it's machine in motion is dying. smoke em if you got em, boys.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:16 pm

promethean75 wrote:
serendipper wrote:The poor uneducated people are the problem.


that is entirely correct, and it's marxism 101. the lumpen proletariat and/or the working class without conscience or interests. but there is a new specter haunting the first world countries... and that's the millennial generation, a generation that is not as susceptible to the forces of indoctrination that have held the prior working class generations under the yoke. the old conservative minded 'backward masses', as marx called them - the epitome being that good 'ol boy in the pic you posted - are slowly, and finally, dying off, to make way for a more progressively minded working class. atheism is on the rise, environmental conscience is on the rise, attention to poverty and famine is on the rise, and all matters that demand radical new approaches to governing the world. one of the seeds of capitalism's own destruction is just this new dawning age of humanism and enlightenment; the forces that once kept the backward masses under the yoke no longer wield the power that they once did. we aren't seeing the conservative working class stock we once saw prior to the 21rst century... who were born already thumping a bible and ready to work a 9 to 5 cuz they gwine go up to heaven if they do the right thing. it's over for these knuckleheads. we've got a new and improved working class not so easily fooled, see, and there's no more philosophers to cook up some bullshit to keep em brainwashed and obedient. everything that capitalism relied on to keep it's machine in motion is dying. smoke em if you got em, boys.

Woot! :obscene-smokingjoint:

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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:29 pm

promethean75 wrote:there's no more philosophers to cook up some bullshit to keep em brainwashed and obedient

They have one more card to play: Biden.

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Biden will merely increase the scraps, then business as usual.

Trump is toast, but Biden scares me.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby promethean75 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:18 pm

and ya know, that's another thing that's slowly increasing the momentum of working class awareness. the lumpen proletariat class has gotten so bad in the last three decades- increasing government spending on social welfare programs - that the productive proletariat is about to buckle under the weight he's carrying. not only the capitalist parasite, but also the jobless, homeless, skilless, useless lower classes that his taxes must pay for. fuck man, this means the worker is being exploited twice, and he still manages to keep his nose to the grindstone and 'get her done'. i gots nothing but love for em. but you see what's happening. workers are becoming smart to that shit, man. startin' to notice something's amiss. that old divide and conquer tactic of the capitalist; split up the working classes and then let their government take care of the trash while they plot and plunder under the protection of the free market.

niggas don't get to be bums in a socialism. everybody gets a job, and you fuckin' do it, or else.

*twists stalinesque moustache*
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby promethean75 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:37 pm

.... and like, i don't even care, man. it's just one of those old habits, something i'm good at, something i have an affinity for. yeah i sympathize with the working class and have been among them all my life, but let's be honest; i'm a nihilist, lebowski, and i cares about nussing. i suppose it's just the thrill of the fight that attracts me, and the deeply rooted contempt for motherfuckers who don't want to work, tryin' to ride for free. i reckon if there is going to be a fight, it might as well be this one. then let me be that brunette beast, champion and defender of the working class!

let's do this.

now where the fuck is my hammer and sickle? i put them down somewhere. shit. i can't remember. kay i walked in the house, put my keys on the tray, passed through the kitchen, and then entered the living room. didn't i? wait a minute... i went upstairs before i went into the living room. i think. look man, i'll be right back. (fuck i need to get my shit together.)
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:07 pm

promethean75 wrote:champion and defender of the working prostitution class!

FIFY :D

now where the fuck is my hammer and sickle? i put them down somewhere. shit. i can't remember. kay i walked in the house, put my keys on the tray, passed through the kitchen, and then entered the living room. didn't i? wait a minute... i went upstairs before i went into the living room. i think. look man, i'll be right back. (fuck i need to get my shit together.)

They're in your pink cadillac under your pimp coat ;)

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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Jakob » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:37 pm

"my one and only goal in life became
the termination of everything that was free and loving. Only I could
realize the true value of loving and expression. Only in my dreams."

- The Socialist Ethos in the words of Beto O Rourke
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:26 am

Jakob wrote:"my one and only goal in life became
the termination of everything that was free and loving. Only I could
realize the true value of loving and expression. Only in my dreams."

- The Socialist Ethos in the words of Beto O Rourke

And this is the third example of this not even expressed implicit fallacious argument.

Maybe Jakob is a bot. Repeating itself, not addressing points, 'expressive' without being responsive.

Does he pass a Turing Test?

Even weak programs can produce texts. It's in the interaction with others one demostrates one has a mind.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:32 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Maybe Jakob is a bot. Repeating itself, not addressing points, 'expressive' without being responsive.

Does he pass a Turing Test?

Even weak programs can produce texts. It's in the interaction with others one demostrates one has a mind.

Conservatives are robots. I tried telling you that before.

They unquestionably obey orders.
They follow lines of code.
They're narcissistically incapable of learning or feeling shame.
They show up, flag in hand, bright n early at the polls which is why they always always always win runoff elections.

They're mindless machines.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:19 pm

Serendipper wrote:Conservatives are robots. I tried telling you that before.
We all robots, you deteminist, you.

They unquestionably obey orders.
Actually I doubt that applies. My guess is Jakob and Pedro Rengel have a hard time with authority figures and the work world. and that is not an insult.

They follow lines of code.
They're narcissistically incapable of learning or feeling shame.
Conservatives to feel shame, just not about what you want them to in recent posts.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Serendipper » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:17 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:Conservatives are robots. I tried telling you that before.
We all robots, you deteminist, you.

I believe if the universe were rewound, it would unfold differently. The chance it would unfold the same is as close to impossible as possible.

They unquestionably obey orders.
Actually I doubt that applies.

Cops, military = overwhelmingly conservative.

My guess is Jakob and Pedro Rengel have a hard time with authority figures and the work world. and that is not an insult.

If they were in the military, would they not unconditionally obey any command issued? Of course; honor depends on it.

They follow lines of code.
They're narcissistically incapable of learning or feeling shame.
Conservatives to feel shame, just not about what you want them to in recent posts.

They walk with their metaphorical fly unzipped and when you tell them, they deny it without looking.
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Re: The defamation of socialism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:59 pm

Serendipper wrote:I believe if the universe were rewound, it would unfold differently. The chance it would unfold the same is as close to impossible as possible.
Sure, but calling some people robots, as a determinist, is a bit problematic.

They unquestionably obey orders.
Actually I doubt that applies.

Cops, military = overwhelmingly conservative.
I'm talking about the people you are arguing with. These are not normal conservatives. Jakob, Pedro, etc.

My guess is Jakob and Pedro Rengel have a hard time with authority figures and the work world. and that is not an insult.

If they were in the military, would they not unconditionally obey any command issued? Of course; honor depends on it.
Stoners, conspiracry theorists, garage band members, astrologers...they'd be in the guardhouse or drummed out. And unless they found some IT or gamer company niche or the like, I would bet they earn much less money than their scholastic abilities would lead one to think.

They follow lines of code.
They're narcissistically incapable of learning or feeling shame.
Conservatives to feel shame, just not about what you want them to in recent posts.

They walk with their metaphorical fly unzipped and when you tell them, they deny it without looking.[/quote]The don't feel shame about the poor, say. But shame about not earning enough, about nto having the right things, about feeling afraid, about when they are dominated by someone, when their wives leave them. Shame ain't guilt. The right feels shame all over the place. They aren't candid about it, sure.

But then the left confuses guilt with love or being good.
Karpel Tunnel
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