Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:15 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Artimas wrote:Also since the third eye was brought up or pineal gland, I thought I'd bring up sun gazing as an opposite to dark/deprivation of consciousness or conscious meditation.

Since we may reflect in the dark, we may gather energy and information out of light from the sun, absorb the benefits, possibly monatomic gold or single active-atom molecules, balance though between both.

Sun gazing is too dangerous??
Re meditation, I have read of people starring into light bulbs and candles which can damage the retina.

There are meditations that focus on the various bright lights emerging within the mind.

Once we have mapped the Human Connectome, we will be able to understand the role of the Pineal Gland. I am not into that at present till I have objective facts about it.

However research has show if certain parts of the temporal lobe is activated by various means, it does produce altered state consciousness in many.


Sun gazing I mean. Closing your eyes and directing your body toward the sun so the pineal gland on the front of the head can absorb sunlight, which it makes special use of, I mean it would make sense due to reptiles using one as well and being desert creatures.
Last edited by Artimas on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:30 pm

Silhouette wrote:...what you experience under the effects of e.g. LSD is the same reality as always -
It is not the same reality. I see it as a corruption of perception of reality.

The often recurring theme in drug use (and other spiritual quests) is the goal of dissolving ego. One of the functions of ego is reality testing or recognizing and modulating the boundary between conscious and unconscious material (reality vs one’s personal feeling about reality). When ego is dissolved (or weakened) the person is no longer able to distinguish between the two. The goal for a healthy personality should not be to destroy one’s ego, but to discipline and strengthen it.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_principle


Again with the false dichotomies and black and white fallacies of "under drugs" versus "sober". It's all the same continuum of available information - I am aware of what is different from the normal interpretation under drugs just as I am in a dream. I have the ability to differentiate because I'm not schizophrenic. The dream experience exists, the drug induced experience exists, and the sober experience exists - but apparently you're only happy with learning from one of these three types of experience.
. And only two of those fall within normal human experiences. The drug induced experience is either accidental (as in case of poisoning) or artificially induced. I’m not schizophrenic either, and yet, I know of the dangers of treating such information equally. They do not belong to the same reality, and should not be treated equally.

Just because a dream isn't real, doesn't mean you can't learn from it.
. I’ve been studying dreams and the subconscious and honestly I have not really learned anything significant or life changing from my dreams. One thing that I did learn is that it is not a good idea to blend conscious and the subconscious, or to dive head fast into unconscious. When you don’t have any bearings (another function of ego) and nothing to go on, except perhaps your subconscious fears or desires, you’re as good as lost. It’s like getting into car with a blind driver.

Silhouette wrote:Have you ever heard of a metaphor?
Well, coming from you, I couldn’t really tell if you’re being literal or figurative.

Why aren't you being honest and admitting you are arguing from ignorance? At least have some authenticity, please.
No, I don’t have experience of LSD or or other psychadelics, nor do I feel the need to try them, but I think you already know that, and you know my position of drug use. I do have some experience with Jungian psychology and hypnosis, and I know of dangers of tinkering with subconscious. When your critical judgement is subdued what you perceive and what someone perceives from outside looking in is not the same, and in such a case, I would go with the outside perspective as being more correct one. Some small examples, everyone is hailing ayahuasca drinking ceremony as the holy or holies. But who really pays attention to the fact that the physical body, after drinking ayahuasca, wants to violently expel it from all orifices? The body treats it as poison. Is the body wrong when it tries to cleanse itself from it? The guru Terrance McKenna achieved a great following and drug induced visions (“insights”), but could not even save his own marriage. Most famous drug users are not involved in practical day to day concerns. Most are story tellers, writers, actors, musicians, comedians, or philosophers, etc. They dive into phantasmagorical worlds only to recreate them, visually, acoustically, or literarily. What about realistic solutions to complex real world problems such as poverty, world hunger, overpopulation, etc., something that does not involve people joining the drug culture, or turning to drugs for answers?
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:00 am

Artimas wrote:We must understand how self works so we may make the best choices for the species and our environment.
. We don’t need to use psychadelics to do that. Understanding acquired under impaired perception will produce a wrong understand of self and the world.

So you're saying diversity and creativity have no role in evolution?
I’m saying drug induced insights have no use in our continual survival. It seems like you want everybody drugged up and living in a hive mind of some sort.

We don't live in the same world we evolved from, now we are aware of the /subconscious, archetypes, environment and a lot more than just that, including drugs.
. We only think we don’t. The bubble is quite fragile and when it bursts, everything will revert back to how it has always worked, even before our first ancestors climbed down the trees.

Generally, Pandora, when you mix substance A with substance B it causes a reaction, one that is good or bad objectively, this reaction from psychedelics increase awareness, this is a fact.
It increases an awareness of redundant things, which you call mindfulness. It’s like being an infant who’s endlessly fascinated by all kinds of stimuli around him. You call it enhanced perception; and I call it ultimate retardation.

[You’re probably one of those weird asmr people, too, or that’s something you and other drug users would really like, endless fascination with random and irrelevant stimuli (noise). I bet they call it mindfulness, too. That fad itself also smells very Japanese to me in its mind-set, and Japanese happen to also have quite weak egos. (It’s quite popular with other Asians, too). The “attractive” factor is that it’s not rational or sits down the rational part of the brain. ]

To expand perception and creativity is /good/ because it speeds up evolution by showing one the self if one is looking for such and to understand it.
. But not by dissolving ego. It is your only tether to reality.

Not in all cases, some just do it for fun and not to learn or explore their subconscious mind. So in other words, coffee, sugar, fluoride, aluminum, mercury, alcohol and tobacco are all ok or good but psychedelics no. That's nonsense and you know it is.
none of these substances impair the rational mind, nor cause hallucinations or alter the sense of self. You should not be comparing psychadelics with coffee or sugar.

Consciousness manifests out of the subconscious and yes, it is eternal because it is both nothing and since we are manifested and exist, it's also a potential everything, within the consistent universal laws, such as the law of conservation, gravity, etc.
this is nonsense. Just because the subconscious does not have a concept of time, it does not mean it’s eternal. It does not mean that consciousness is eternal. This is an error in thinking. I do understand the allure of timelessness, though, and that could be the driving force.

We aren't bypassing anything, what do you mean? We're literally just using them to expand perception.
. It’s called brain hacking for a reason.

So a flower whimpering when it is cut is not an indication of pain?
. I’m going to pass this one.


Aligned by everyone seeking to understand for the sake of understanding, aligned by everyone discovering self and being educated by having a perception that can think in multiple methods to seek what is consistent and objective along with what can be manifested as objective.
it’s playing a redefining game. The ego, the guardian of reality, is now the evil one, and is holding the “real self” hostage. The evil one has to be dissolved so that the “real self” can emerge and manifest to us the nature of the ultimate reality. Want to see for yourself? Just kill the ego! How brazen is it to say such things when everything in nature around contradicts it.

You do realize you're in the reality of the subconscious already right? That's what reality is.
The reality is not the subconscious. That’s subjective reality.

Subconsciousness began with the first reaction of two or more variables, life came after chaos evolved to have order then chaos and order evolved into existence.
that the subconscious is more like chaos, yes.

So do you understand that creations resemble their creators? If the subconscious was before consciousness then what does that tell you? The great thing is that we may use our consciousness which evolved out of subconsciousness to further explore ourself on a macro and micro level. Reality is it's dream, it's everything and nothing.
Conscious as dream of the subconscious? Sounds like an inverted or confused perspective to me. Did you mean instincts? Just because we evolved additional perceptions, such as self-awareness and sense of time, does not mean they are illusory, or just a dream. Why waste so much effort with trial and error? Just to dream? In evolution, things that don’t keep pace with reality disappear. Our higher functions evolved to facilitate this, they were not arbitrary.

When they write in religions and mythology they attribute "god" as the creator, which it is the subconscious mind. Ideas come from it along with other instinctual aspects to help us cope and better understand our role as both a living individual and as a collective species. In pagan religion the many gods were metaphorical archetypes, expression of man's inner psyche/instincts, which is what, Pandora? Subconsciousness.
. You’re romanticising subconscious again. The danger of delving into subconscious is that you may become lost in it. It takes over and you’re essentially sleepwalking. Hypnosis works this way too (and you can hypnotize yourself). The subconscious can trick you, as well. One example that happens in lucid dreaming work is false awakening. You don’t want the subconscious taking over your conscious.


Consciousness manifests and ego is created, this ego can be shapen by environment... Which is very clearly, indoctrination of ideology/culture.
. The egos job is to negotiate between different environments. It has to be discriminating.

No one is arguing that they have changed but man however, can change by understanding what is. Yeah and I'm telling you, if we don't choose to consciously evolve we will go extinct, which is literally what I am advocating and trying to explain to you.
But your “conscious” evolution involves giving control to the subconscious, the one you call eternal and wise.

There are some instincts I believe will be and can be bred out by collective evolution like addiction or a self/species harming form of coping. Fight or flight is another one I believe we can understand further or if not breed out at least learn to manage better, anger and what not.
. You cannot weaken ego AND get rid of instincts like fear or anger; that’s ultimate hacking and suicide (...homicide?)

You don't understand how psychedelics work..
. I can see their effects on your judgement.

Subconscious mind comes out to play, which means the visuals and perception have everything to do with environment and the persons subconscious mood at that time, which shows what? That one can control a trip or the experiencing of the drug.
or they think they do.

You are literally conscious of the subconscious when on a psychedelic but also at the same time conscious of reality, unless it's dmt then I usually close my eyes for the imagery because it is powerful.
And I was warning you that manifesting subconscious is dangerous on the account that you can become “lost in it”. You’re already giving it the preference- eternal subconscious as the driver and source of all. There is a reason why it was designed to stay hidden, and it’s not so that you can go on some divine treasure hunt and find the key to universe and everything. It’s a self-fulfilling prophesy perception loop, that some people do not escape from.

So since we cannot see the wind is it not there? Since we can't see a germ does it mean illness doesn't exist? You do know this is why we need science right? To develop /tools/ to detect and measure reality because our senses are limited... Psychedelics improve perception and awareness, which means what? You can see things you normally wouldn't and can even will them into existence by subconscious feeling and environment.
*Pandora shakes her head* Based on what you’ve been saying so far it is not science but mysticism you are after, but what you will get is psychosis.
You will get what you really want. Not reality, but your reality. The subconscious will give you that.

My experience is just as real as normal reality because that's how perception works, objectively, no, it isn't going to appear to everyone unless they do the same substance and it reacts with their brain, but I promise you after one tries it and understands fully, our perception and understanding will be consistent with each other. That is normally how evolution works, you try something new and good results come from it.. It's a very basic concept Pandora.
You’re equating things like evolution and psychadelic drugs. I do not see a connection. Hallucinations are not conductive to survival, hense they are not compatible. In fact, you should not be using them in the same sentence.

Good results have definitely came from psychedelics and drugs, especially art, music and ideas along with it being the evidence to a view of the bigger image of things.
Yes, if only it can fill a stomach of a starving child in Africa. Does he care if a famous actor makes his world better by hanging a psychadelic painting on his mansion wall?
Also, your bigger image of eternal subconscious that dreamt reality into being, including consciousness and ego and all, just because, is very questionable.


Ok and would you rather shape yourself or be shapen without knowing you have been?
If you give subconscious the reigns, you’re no longer in control.

There is more to "reality" than meets the normal human eye, literally, science has already proven this. I am engaging a reality of which environment and subconscious can manifest patterns and imagery, it's like a form of communication with nature, do you see what I am saying?
. It’s not the same, because you’re interfering the the same perception apparatus that is supposed to explore reality. That’s why all scientific instruments have to be carefully calibrated before hand.

How can something be real if everything is an illusion?
That’s a bad starting premise. Why would one want to seek reality in illusion?

So if I take a drug and add on to what is already an illusion, is it even more of an illusion than reality? Reality is not merely subject to our consciousness/ego, that's the point of evolution, to develop a sense of reality of which we can understand it all fully and continue expanding.... The ego is temporary and we recycle, so why be afraid of death?
. I didn’t talk about death. Is the goal to bypass the fear of death?
Because one is not fulfilled until they live as self. This has been proven on many people's death bed. The point is to live unique as self as to contribute to evolution using diverse expression and interacting with and in reality. There is nothing to escape either, I am appreciative of existence being what it is, a giant, fragmented and abundant variety of, contrast.
So I take it you just don’t want to pay the price of higher awareness, so you devolve your consciousness, or redefine reality and self. Again, the allure of timelessness.


Best not drink coffee or participate in reality then, because here, we evolve via drugs and chemical reactions and environment. Do you eat red meat, do you drink alcohol? Do you eat sugar? Then you're already "self maiming". Every choice you make and every choice that has been made that has crossed you, could be considered a "maim" then, with your logic.
Do not compare coffee, sugar and red meat to hallucinogens. I have never tripped or hallucinated on coffee, or eating a steak.

again, society keeps individuals entrapped through a monetary system and coercion of survival. It's as obvious as day time.
. People find other ways out. Some people move to other countries. Some go off the grid. It’s actually pretty amazing what solutions people come up with if you really look into it. And drugs are not involved, just research and actually going out and looking for those things.

Maybe you should take a step back from your ego and see the bigger imagery at work here.
I do not deny that my ego needs some work, but drugs are not part of it.

Drug culture fad? We have been using drugs for a long time to evolve why do you think they're illegal and not "researched"? Oh I could tell you, maybe because, hmm.. It heightens awareness and government doesn't want every person aware.
I think I already explained to you why drugs cannot be responsible for our evolution. And drugs are now becoming increasingly legal and popular. Where is the government conspiracy here? Where I live, there is a homelessness and drug problem. The government turns a blind eye on it, and just keeps throwing more tax payer money on it, and it’s only getting worse. Did more drugs help those people?
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:36 am

How long would a hallucinating person survive in the wild? One hour? One day? A couple of days?

Is it a coincidence that a hallucinating person needs a safe and protective environment to trip in?

————
In fact, most such spirit world gurus require assistance even in basic living requirements such as food and shelter, which they usually acquire from their brainwashed followers.

A monk is revered, even as he carries a begging bowl around him. What kind of spirit world is it that cannot stand on its own, except in words and unconfirmable promises?

Why such dependency of that which claims to be so lofty? Because it’s “too good” for normal world? Too special? Because its people have transcended the mundance world, even while needing protection and shelter from it? What an irony.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:20 am

Artimas wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
Artimas wrote:Also since the third eye was brought up or pineal gland, I thought I'd bring up sun gazing as an opposite to dark/deprivation of consciousness or conscious meditation.

Since we may reflect in the dark, we may gather energy and information out of light from the sun, absorb the benefits, possibly monatomic gold or single active-atom molecules, balance though between both.

Sun gazing is too dangerous??
Re meditation, I have read of people starring into light bulbs and candles which can damage the retina.

There are meditations that focus on the various bright lights emerging within the mind.

Once we have mapped the Human Connectome, we will be able to understand the role of the Pineal Gland. I am not into that at present till I have objective facts about it.

However research has show if certain parts of the temporal lobe is activated by various means, it does produce altered state consciousness in many.


Have you heard of the law of attraction and monatomic elements? I can upload some pictures for you if you haven't heard of the elements.

Nope. OK I'll see the pictures.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:27 am

Artimas wrote:To evolve the brain is to choose what environment one is in and the chemicals/sustenance one uses to survive and live for the next day, by us consuming more molecules and substances we either develop a resistance if they're "toxic" but beneficial, we can choose low dosing and breed resistances into our collective species so we may expand further in being able to sense and perceive by consciously creating new substances or reactions.

This is how the dog was bred, we bred out a lot of their primitive wolf-like instincts and features, by substances, genetics and length of time for change to occur and this is a cycle of consciousness, we could breed dogs and mammals to be almost as conscious as us but they do not have hands and limbs to craft tools so that is why they haven't naturally already, we do though which means if we over time and breeding, introduce substances that are toxic or bad to one it may become beneficial and perceived as good over a possibly long period of time due to building a bodily tolerance/resistance "stress breeding the strong, trial and error, selective breeding and chemical inducing" Same thing applies to us, it's us acting as nature/god because we are it.

The issue is getting others to understand and help them to this state of mind or perception. "The bigger image".

Noted the above for dogs and others but those are trial and error methods which we may be unethical for humans because there naturally and likely side-effects and defects.

However, the advancement of the Human Genome and Human Connectome project can enable potential to advance human development in some ways via targeted, specific, fool proof [no side effects] and holistic methods.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:32 am

Artimas wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
Artimas wrote:Also since the third eye was brought up or pineal gland, I thought I'd bring up sun gazing as an opposite to dark/deprivation of consciousness or conscious meditation.

Since we may reflect in the dark, we may gather energy and information out of light from the sun, absorb the benefits, possibly monatomic gold or single active-atom molecules, balance though between both.

Sun gazing is too dangerous??
Re meditation, I have read of people starring into light bulbs and candles which can damage the retina.

There are meditations that focus on the various bright lights emerging within the mind.

Once we have mapped the Human Connectome, we will be able to understand the role of the Pineal Gland. I am not into that at present till I have objective facts about it.

However research has show if certain parts of the temporal lobe is activated by various means, it does produce altered state consciousness in many.


Sun gazing I mean. Closing your eyes and directing your body toward the sun so the pineal gland on the front of the head can absorb sunlight, which it makes special use of, I mean it would make sense due to reptiles using one as well and being desert creatures.

Reptiles has special reasons due to their need to absorb heat into their body so they turn towards the Sun.

I believe we need more empirical and objective evidence before we can say whether sunlight directed at the pineal gland [with closed eyes] can have any actual positive effects.

Btw too much direct exposure to the Sun can have potential cancer threat.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:52 am

Pandora wrote:How long would a hallucinating person survive in the wild? One hour? One day? A couple of days?

Is it a coincidence that a hallucinating person needs a safe and protective environment to trip in?

————
In fact, most such spirit world gurus require assistance even in basic living requirements such as food and shelter, which they usually acquire from their brainwashed followers.

A monk is revered, even as he carries a begging bowl around him. What kind of spirit world is it that cannot stand on its own, except in words and unconfirmable promises?

Why such dependency of that which claims to be so lofty? Because it’s “too good” for normal world? Too special? Because its people have transcended the mundance world, even while needing protection and shelter from it? What an irony.

I had recommended ALL humans should be given the opportunity to experience DMT [small doses] in a controlled environment and with a stable psychological state that will avoid addiction and other negative side effects.
I note many who experiment with DMT are not trained to have a stable and positive foundation, thus some ended with negative trips.
Thus a lot of foundation and preventive steps need to be taken before the project is implemented.

The problem is, at present especially fundy theists and many others are living within a defensive psychological silo of >10 feet thick and one mile high. One of the consequences is the below and many other terrible negatives;

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg

I believe DMT [so called Spirit Molecule] will break the walls of that thick psychological silo they are trapped in and facilitate them to view reality in a wider perspective and dissolve the inherent insecurity that drive them [SOME] to commit terrible violence and the
whole range of evils.

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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:44 am

Pandora,

"It is not the same reality. I see it as a corruption of perception of reality.

The often recurring theme in drug use (and other spiritual quests) is the goal of dissolving ego. One of the functions of ego is reality testing or recognizing and modulating the boundary between conscious and unconscious material (reality vs one’s personal feeling about reality). When ego is dissolved (or weakened) the person is no longer able to distinguish between the two. The goal for a healthy personality should not be to destroy one’s ego, but to discipline and strengthen it."
You're associating "drug use" with psychedelics, which are nothing like other typical, abused and addicting drugs like the ones in society.

But it isn't a corruption of reality because you're still in reality and can function in reality Pandora, when you're on a trip you can see more, it's as if your eye opens wider and it's an Hd reality, you can control the dilation of your eyes as well and control what you see and feel by thought like colors out of light and geometrical patterns in wood or texturing of reality/objective surrounding. I am not saying we need these drugs to understand what we can understand already, I am saying we should experiment with these drugs to see if there is anymore to understand or for solutions and exploration, about reality, they enhance creativity..

You can still interact with reality, play games, talk to people, eat small portions, go to the bathroom, etc. What one imagines and is feeling is how the trip goes or feels. Like listening to classic rock on lsd or mushrooms is an amazing experience, the music is magical and one can appreciate it even more so and notice the hidden subliminals and what not, it isn't needed to appreciate the music, it isn't needed at all it just makes it better if you do try them, because they show a grand and bigger image/perspective and one can correlate more information about it, whatever the subject, music is only one example.

You're right, it is wrong to destroy or try to destroy ones ego but they don't destroy the ego or kill it, an ego death is not permanent unless psychosis or some dieassociative disorder is already in genetics. They call it ego death because it's in the moment, not permanent Pandora.. It doesn't really "kill" the ego, it just makes it easily distinguishable from the subconscious and easy to judge or understand it for what it is, a byproduct and collection of ideas. People that say they have killed the ego, the first question I ask them is, "what is your name?" And they respond with their name, this is direct evidence that it doesn't completely "kill ego" it's merely a temporary state, like I said, a mirror.

"And only two of those fall within normal human experiences. The drug induced experience is either accidental (as in case of poisoning) or artificially induced. I’m not schizophrenic either, and yet, I know of the dangers of treating such information equally. They do not belong to the same reality, and should not be treated equally."

/You/ and /I/ don't get to determine what reality is in the way of which you are trying, Pandora... It just is, nature. Experience is experience, if I feel terror in a dream, that automatically chalks down to not being real because the experience isn't available to you? So what if I have a heart attack from a dream, is that not real? The heart attack sure was though, right? Because it's observable to /you/? Opinion means nothing to reality, you thinking something is /accidental/ is opinion, not reality. They should be treated equally. You don't understand the full implication of what a psychedelic is Pandora so how can you say or determine what it is or what it feels like? How do you know what ice cream tastes like and what coffee tastes like if you have never tried them? Want me to describe them to you? That's what we're trying to do Pandora, describe the experience to you so you can make sense of it but it isn't working because it is a very difficult experience to explain with you believing us, you have to step outside of your ego and trust us and I know that is difficult, it's why I say they are the /evidence/ to a lot of aspects in humanity, especially with art, language/symbolism and people trying to express psyche in a past and current tense.

They do belong to the same reality, they're literally drugs in this reality that we can ingest and they don't harm or kill us, yet sugar and other drugs you advocate for have killed people, literally. So is this what you determine as "should not be treated as equal"? this is the issue with society, not wanting to change things due to comfort, a trap in understanding what is but not understanding what could/can be.

"I’ve been studying dreams and the subconscious and honestly I have not really learned anything significant or life changing from my dreams. One thing that I did learn is that it is not a good idea to blend conscious and the subconscious, or to dive head fast into unconscious. When you don’t have any bearings (another function of ego) and nothing to go on, except perhaps your subconscious fears or desires, you’re as good as lost. It’s like getting into car with a blind driver."

Or maybe /you/ just misinterpret your dreams and subconcscious' imagery and inner workings? Do you think this may be a possibility for yourself and not for others or something you are but shouldn't be projecting onto /everyone/ else? Pandora, what if I told you, you could be conscious in a dream, similar to 'lucid dreaming', inside the subconscious imagery and being able to also control and project what you wish to project onto it visually/perceptionly but also be awake while doing so and not only that but also be able to understand it and whilst also still remaining attached to and understanding of reality and how reality actually functions/universal laws? Is that still a /blind driver/?


"No, I don’t have experience of LSD or or other psychadelics, nor do I feel the need to try them, but I think you already know that, and you know my position of drug use. I do have some experience with Jungian psychology and hypnosis, and I know of dangers of tinkering with subconscious. When your critical judgement is subdued what you perceive and what someone perceives from outside looking in is not the same, and in such a case, I would go with the outside perspective as being more correct one. Some small examples, everyone is hailing ayahuasca drinking ceremony as the holy or holies. But who really pays attention to the fact that the physical body, after drinking ayahuasca, wants to violently expel it from all orifices? The body treats it as poison. Is the body wrong when it tries to cleanse itself from it? The guru Terrance McKenna achieved a great following and drug induced visions (“insights”), but could not even save his own marriage. Most famous drug users are not involved in practical day to day concerns. Most are story tellers, writers, actors, musicians, comedians, or philosophers, etc. They dive into phantasmagorical worlds only to recreate them, visually, acoustically, or literarily. What about realistic solutions to complex real world problems such as poverty, world hunger, overpopulation, etc., something that does not involve people joining the drug culture, or turning to drugs for answers?"

Ayahuasca isn't the same as normal dmt alone, ayahuasca is a inhibitor/enzyme from a vine in the south/central America's of which is mixed with dmt to create an orally ingestable brew, which is ayahuasca, without this vine or enzyme, one cannot ingest dmt orally due to organs not secreting the proper enzyme of which is used to break down the molecule in that fashion, but if one only smokes it, which a lot of people do, it lasts only around 5-10 minutes through vaporozing it, it lasts around 5 hours if one drinks or orally ingestss dmt/ayahuasca.

It isn't about a /need/ to try them, I don't /need/ to try anything but we do /try/ things, Pandora, new things... all of the time, because we're told they're good, especially the industry of food, hygiene and taking care of oneself, right? So how is a drug that hasn't killed anyone due to them ingesting it but expands perception, bad? It's about trying new things Pandora, and expanding self, not staying limited or comfortable with what is, that's the point of life, expression of self and growth. It would seem to me that you yourself have a biased fear of psychedelics or psychedelic culture. Terence McKenna's visions were merely metaphor and his attempt at describing his own conscious/awareness of his own subconscious, it's subjective because it's his language, his expression of an experience.. It /seems/ subjective, until you experience it.. Do you understand? Evidence is found in consistency, Pandora.. The evidence and consistency of the effects of these drugs and also it's /significant harm/ upon reality/humanity, is against you.
It isn't the same because a dream isn't fully remembered, it's only fragmented imagery that one attempts to piece together with the ego/consciousness in a conscious state but dreams are not so simple as what is pieced together by the state of being awake after. Some dreams are more vivid than others due to being more /profound/ of an unconscious experience and so the consciousness collects that data and stores it ahead of the rest which is then pieced together in an an awakened/conscious state to the best of memories ability.

"We don’t need to use psychadelics to do that. Understanding acquired under impaired perception will produce a wrong understand of self and the world."

That's subjective opinion from experience that /you/ do not possess, Pandora. It isn't about /needing/ them, we don't /need/ anything except the very basics of survival, yet here we are... on the internet, it is a tool of nature to be regarded as sacred and the experiencing of subconsciousness openly discussed as to help correlate imagery and understand possibilities through creativity/understanding of what is and what could/can be.

"I’m saying drug induced insights have no use in our continual survival. It seems like you want everybody drugged up and living in a hive mind of some sort."

So because it's a drug of the mind and you haved a biased /fear/, we should all treat it differently than that of a drug that interacts with the body, even though drugs like alcohol, coffee, sugar, opiates, cigarrettes, etc... are all bad for the body and it's functioning, especially since they're highly addictive and all effect brain/body in negative ways more so than the temporary positives? Is it not up to the individual to determine the worth of these drugs based off of experiencing them?


"We only think we don’t. The bubble is quite fragile and when it bursts, everything will revert back to how it has always worked, even before our first ancestors climbed down the trees."

How do you know this as a fact, Pandora? You know the future?

I think mankind will and can go extinct if it doesn't choose to evolve, do you agree or not? Or do you think we can't survive no matter even if we evolve to understand how to treat our environment and evolve ourself in a quicker fashion?

"It increases an awareness of redundant things, which you call mindfulness. It’s like being an infant who’s endlessly fascinated by all kinds of stimuli around him. You call it enhanced perception; and I call it ultimate retardation.

[You’re probably one of those weird asmr people, too, or that’s something you and other drug users would really like, endless fascination with random and irrelevant stimuli (noise). I bet they call it mindfulness, too. That fad itself also smells very Japanese to me in its mind-set, and Japanese happen to also have quite weak egos. (It’s quite popular with other Asians, too). The “attractive” factor is that it’s not rational or sits down the rational part of the brain. ]"

Ok, this is your opinion/subjective misinterpretation/misunderstanding, also based off of not having dealt or having the experience in which to have an opinion in/for.

That's also ad hominem to try and direct topic at me and what /I/ am. What you determine as noise and what I determine as noise could be different or maybe not so much, your judgement is based off of a lack of knowing and if you do not know, then you also cannot understand. Nothing is truly "irrelevant" nature is all around and it communicates, "irrelevant" is based off of opinion, not objective.


"But not by dissolving ego. It is your only tether to reality"

It doesn't dissolve the ego, it is judgement/critisicm of it, by inner self. A mirror, a literal mirror for the metaphorical, make sense? I am still attached to reality as my identity, easily so, with no schizophrenia or "psychosis" as you claim to be caused by such use, hence, I am here trying to describe blue and the many different flavors of ice cream to you as if you were never to experience them.

"It’s called brain hacking for a reason."

So basic drugs like sugar, caffeine, cigarettes that grant mere temporary boosts to states of mind for a cost of body and risk of addiction are not brain hacking? While psychedelics can grant a permanent understanding of much more exponential concepts/topics? Yet psychedelics to you are /bad/ ? That is not logical or reasonable, Pandora.

"I’m going to pass this one."

Don't pass it, you can go read the studies and experiment with plants for yourself, just because they respond to stimuli differently than we do, does not mean they do not feel. Plants can hear and feel themselves being eaten and also are very aware of the environment around them, due to their inability to move, being cessile organisms.. Awareness is their only trait of which they use to survive, by chemical release, natural defense and preservation mechanisms, etc. Similar to how a brain and body has /mechanisms/ to survive.

"it’s playing a redefining game. The ego, the guardian of reality, is now the evil one, and is holding the “real self” hostage. The evil one has to be dissolved so that the “real self” can emerge and manifest to us the nature of the ultimate reality. Want to see for yourself? Just kill the ego! How brazen is it to say such things when everything in nature around contradicts it."

The ego isn't always the guardian of reality, if it is not understood fully. A lot of peoples ignorance and willful ignorance/evading of understanding and the responsibility of knowing/understanding is what is /evil/, with the implication of /intent/ of course.

We don't kill the ego, it's not possible to do so unless some disassociative disorder in genetics, everything in nature is a physical manifestation of the subconscious, we evolved out of instinct, we're animals, becoming civil.. not the other way around. It isn't a "redefining game" it's an /understanding/ and having an insightful experience game.


"The reality is not the subconscious. That’s subjective reality."

Reality has few rules that state what we can or cannot do subjectively if one takes their thinking outside of a literal only or unreasonable style of thinking and is consistent in this thinking/understanding. One must base ones thinking off of universal laws, this doesn't mean a subjective reality is completely impossible, what's art then if subjective projection into reality is not "Reality"?

We manifested out of the subconscious, instincts and nature, not the opposite, Pandora.

"that the subconscious is more like chaos, yes."

Do you think it is better to run from this chaos, or to understand it further through correlation of imagery?

"Conscious as dream of the subconscious? Sounds like an inverted or confused perspective to me. Did you mean instincts? Just because we evolved additional perceptions, such as self-awareness and sense of time, does not mean they are illusory, or just a dream. Why waste so much effort with trial and error? Just to dream? In evolution, things that don’t keep pace with reality disappear. Our higher functions evolved to facilitate this, they were not arbitrary."

Pandora, I am not saying our perception is a /dream/ I am saying all experiencing is experience, subjective or not, there are lessons and understandings to be had and seeked. No, consciousness isn't the dream of the subconscious, it's the evolution of it.. /reality/ and /experiencing/ are the dreams of the subconscious, we may experience, due to subconscious' evolution into a state of duality, consciousness/subconsciousness and what we may interact with, is the trinity, the /dream/. We are both the spectator and spectated, make sense? It's not about just /dreaming/ Pandora, it's about helping others understand and speed up our understanding as a collective species so we may utilize unique diversity and manifest a better model of society/reality based off of universal wants/needs and a more logical/reasonable approach to issues/future. To further education, to help others gain the spark of curiosity back and to experience more, to willfully evolve.

"You’re romanticising subconscious again. The danger of delving into subconscious is that you may become lost in it. It takes over and you’re essentially sleepwalking. Hypnosis works this way too (and you can hypnotize yourself). The subconscious can trick you, as well. One example that happens in lucid dreaming work is false awakening. You don’t want the subconscious taking over your conscious."

I don't think I am, unfortunately.. I am dealing with facts here only, observable proofs through experiencing. The subconscious can't trick you, intuition, ideas, and dreams based off of universal law are all possibilities through/in reality, the misunderstanding of the subconscious imagery through the simplicity of the ego is what can /trick/ you, just like the ego can be tricked in normal reality, /optical illusions/. It depends upon one's ability of thought and intentions of which may or may not lead to an understanding.

"The egos job is to negotiate between different environments. It has to be discriminating."

The ego's /job/ is to be able to perform interaction with environment through being conscious, not discriminate against nature/reality, it may only discriminate once an experience is had and that is a subjective experiencing/opinion or lack of. The bodies job is to be discriminating of environment by sensory of experience through being unique/diverse in genetics/environment. An ego is merely a collection of ideas, not the body. The body is the receiver, the ego is the projection of conscious self based off of one's environment, which it uses the body as it's receiver of experience to interact with environment.

"But your “conscious” evolution involves giving control to the subconscious, the one you call eternal and wise."

Do you not deem nature, eternal and wise? do you not appreciate what is and what can/could be out of or due too what is? Nature is a series of reactions, do you think these reactions will cease when one dies as a temporary collection of idea's/ego? It's not about giving control to the subconcscious, it's about seeking balance between subconscious and consciousness, to experience and understand both sides as to further ones own evolution along with it's species, through art and expression of diverse understanding of what is and what can be through a model of thinking based off of reality/universal laws.

"You cannot weaken ego AND get rid of instincts like fear or anger; that’s ultimate hacking and suicide (...homicide?)"

It's not about weakening ego, it's about controlling the manifestation of ego through understanding. Fear and anger are both irrational states of perception due to fear often being of/to the unknown and anger often to the inability to cope with the known/reality. Both instinctive traits through both genetics and induced in/through environment, they are due to a lack of understanding and practiced out of that. If one practices and seeks understanding through consistency of thoughts and healthy actions/routine/coping then one may conquer fear and negative impulsive aspects of ego through an understanding of how, why, when, who, what, where and self.

"I can see their effects on your judgement."

And the lie detector test has detected that this, is a lie!
You cannot comprehend some of what I have said and have been saying, this much is obvious due to your lack of experience with a psychedelic. It has been proven above. My judgement is sound and based off of reality/universal objectivity. Evidence through consistent results.

"or they think they do."

How can you comment on the perception with no experience? You're the one choosing not to have an experience based off of fear, Pandora.. not me.

"And I was warning you that manifesting subconscious is dangerous on the account that you can become “lost in it”. You’re already giving it the preference- eternal subconscious as the driver and source of all. There is a reason why it was designed to stay hidden, and it’s not so that you can go on some divine treasure hunt and find the key to universe and everything. It’s a self-fulfilling prophesy perception loop, that some people do not escape from."

Except I am not lost in it, my description of the experience is what you're percieving as being "lost in subconsciousness" because you lack the experience to visualize or correlate what I am stating. It was obviously not designed to stay hidden, considering one can be conscious of the subconscious and there is objective proof in reality through natures own design /psychedelics/ and even in the body itself. It isn't about finding the key to the universe, it's about finding the key to the self, which is a force of the universe. You misconstrue the messages and the understanding of the "divine treasure hunt", knowledge and experience is worth more than gold. It isn't self fulfilling based off of things not achievable in reality though, my fulfillment of self is through translating my unique understanding which is one based off of logic, reason and universal laws to people who have yet to understand what is and what can/could be.


"*Pandora shakes her head* Based on what you’ve been saying so far it is not science but mysticism you are after, but what you will get is psychosis.
You will get what you really want. Not reality, but your reality. The subconscious will give you that."

What I want is a reality based off of universal wants/needs, a educated and understanding populace so we may evolve faster experience more based off of that, to create a better loop. Not mysticism and "psychosis", that's your own inexperience talking.


"You’re equating things like evolution and psychadelic drugs. I do not see a connection. Hallucinations are not conductive to survival, hense they are not compatible. In fact, you should not be using them in the same sentence."

This reality isn't comfortable to me because it's mundane and forced entrapment. It isn't so easy as to "move away" and be balanced between nature and technology, just face that facts that mankinds societies are unjust. Now it the issue is getting man to accept responsibility and seek the unknown instead of staying content with the comfortable, you misconstrue the present with the past in terms of /evolution/ and /devolution/. We're in a society that is devolution at the moment. Our society could be run much more efficiently to further our evolution quicker through understanding and education. Escaping comfort and fear due to unknown/willful ignorance which is /devolution/ is conducive to /survival/. We will be wiped out if we stay in this state, eventually.

Drugs play a huge role in evolution by creating multiple ways/angles of perspective/perception and enhancement of our bodily function with reality for the purpose of finishing tasks quicker, understanding better.. oh wait, not understanding more or drugs based on enhancement of such because that would crumble this illogically run society that is based off of willful ignorance due to fears of unknown, avoidance of self responsibility and being comfortable with /what is/ instead of seeking what can/could be.


"Yes, if only it can fill a stomach of a starving child in Africa. Does he care if a famous actor makes his world better by hanging a psychadelic painting on his mansion wall?
Also, your bigger image of eternal subconscious that dreamt reality into being, including consciousness and ego and all, just because, is very questionable."

The ideas that come from the creativity and understanding that it manifests, could do such. You're attaching physical culture and a literal only/objective only style of thinking or perspective through an attempt of using ones subjective art and your misunderstanding of the experiencing within the culture to not being able to solve world issues, which is a message that is not accurate and misconstrued.


"If you give subconscious the reigns, you’re no longer in control."

And if you give the ego the full control, you no longer live as self. It's a state of balance that is needed, a consciousness of both sides, the duality that manifest out of subconsciousness.

"It’s not the same, because you’re interfering the the same perception apparatus that is supposed to explore reality. That’s why all scientific instruments have to be carefully calibrated before hand."

But it is the same because it is a conscious exploration of self, which is in reality. We are a tool of nature, the point is to understand how to use the tool. One must understand for the sake of understanding, with this mindset one can evolve consciously and have a choice in how one does

"That’s a bad starting premise. Why would one want to seek reality in illusion?"

Because reality is an illusion on a mass/macro scale in terms of evolution since Subconscious instincts evolved into Consciousness(awareness of those instincts), just like the ego is a collection of ideas and those ideas may change based off of understanding, which makes the ego /temporary/ "illusive" in it's controlling interaction with "reality". You're claiming subjectivity is illusion but do not have the experience of this specific experience which is based off of a subjective understanding since language/comprehension is unique and diverse through an enhanced state 0f perception and correlation of imagery/subconsciousness.

"I didn’t talk about death. Is the goal to bypass the fear of death?"

No it's about getting others to understand for the sake of understanding and bypass any and all fear by strengthening ones understanding of the path to/of self. Death isn't what people perceive it to be and yes it what a lot of people who do not understand, fear based off of their misunderstanding of what death fully implies.

"So I take it you just don’t want to pay the price of higher awareness, so you devolve your consciousness, or redefine reality and self. Again, the allure of timelessness."

Not even, I love that we are in a timeless state of duality/trinity of which can evolve, I appreciate higher awareness and pay the price everyday and even now, due to your lack of understanding the way in which I comprehend and the price is due to my own obligation to and in attempt at breaking down my own perception in a language you can comprehend, the transfer of knowledge/understanding of experience through subjectivity.


"Do not compare coffee, sugar and red meat to hallucinogens. I have never tripped or hallucinated on coffee, or eating a steak."
That's the point... those are basic drugs that enhance us temporarily at the cost of causing slow or quick harm to the body based off of usage and or addiction. Psychedelics are opposite of that, a state of perception or understanding of reality that may be permanent at the risk of triggering genetic disorders, of which those genetic disorders can also be bred out through environment and molecular therapy.

"People find other ways out. Some people move to other countries. Some go off the grid. It’s actually pretty amazing what solutions people come up with if you really look into it. And drugs are not involved, just research and actually going out and looking for those things."

The only way out is in, running away from society to avoid it's issues is not a solution to those issues, that's only a selfish solution by appeasing to their subjective self and it's ignorant thinking or attempt at greater satisfaction by being pretentious of what mankind is(nature) and fearful misunderstanding of the unknown. People must accept self responsibility and try to help advance humanity and it's societies by understanding and then seeking the root of issues and removing/replacing them with better ideas that would focus on improving an always changing and or everlasting "current" society based off of universal needs/wants through what is consistent in opinion to an extent.


"I think I already explained to you why drugs cannot be responsible for our evolution. And drugs are now becoming increasingly legal and popular. Where is the government conspiracy here? Where I live, there is a homelessness and drug problem. The government turns a blind eye on it, and just keeps throwing more tax payer money on it, and it’s only getting worse. Did more drugs help those people?"

We are made up of molecules that interact, we are conscious drugs walking around.... drugs(body) are/is our receiver and being able to alter the receiver (body) to enhance awareness permanently or temporarily, both with possible costs that one must deem satisfactory or worth it based off of experience. You're conflating or wrongfully attaching manmade drugs to control populace through "big pharma" and military importing of opiates/drugs and based off of a monopoly system and fear to a drug wrongfully labeled by simple misunderstanding, a drug that enhances perception and has more benefits than negatives. Meth has an effect of which is worse than the benefit, this doesn't mean psychedelics do too. That is your own misconception of what psychedelics are and the experiencing of "hallucinations". A label wrongfully given considering reality is a macro version of a hallucination, (evolution of subconsciousness into physically, conscious individuals.
Last edited by Artimas on Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:48 am

Pandora wrote:How long would a hallucinating person survive in the wild? One hour? One day? A couple of days?

Is it a coincidence that a hallucinating person needs a safe and protective environment to trip in?

————
In fact, most such spirit world gurus require assistance even in basic living requirements such as food and shelter, which they usually acquire from their brainwashed followers.

A monk is revered, even as he carries a begging bowl around him. What kind of spirit world is it that cannot stand on its own, except in words and unconfirmable promises?

Why such dependency of that which claims to be so lofty? Because it’s “too good” for normal world? Too special? Because its people have transcended the mundance world, even while needing protection and shelter from it? What an irony.


How often are you in the wild Pandora or fighting a lion/shark/cougar/wolf and or other forces of nature? The point of survival now, is to escape the being consumed by comfort and willful ignorance due to fears and avoidance of self responsibility.

I stand on my own, I can't speak for others and their lack of understanding, if those truly are the cases of gurus/monks. I stand for balance and understanding of self. I wish to evolve the "normal" world, not stay in what is forever and turn a blind eye on our ability to speed up our own evolution, there is a difference. That difference is, what is from what can/could be or what one can make it as self and also as a collective species.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:52 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
Pandora wrote:How long would a hallucinating person survive in the wild? One hour? One day? A couple of days?

Is it a coincidence that a hallucinating person needs a safe and protective environment to trip in?

————
In fact, most such spirit world gurus require assistance even in basic living requirements such as food and shelter, which they usually acquire from their brainwashed followers.

A monk is revered, even as he carries a begging bowl around him. What kind of spirit world is it that cannot stand on its own, except in words and unconfirmable promises?

Why such dependency of that which claims to be so lofty? Because it’s “too good” for normal world? Too special? Because its people have transcended the mundance world, even while needing protection and shelter from it? What an irony.

I had recommended ALL humans should be given the opportunity to experience DMT [small doses] in a controlled environment and with a stable psychological state that will avoid addiction and other negative side effects.
I note many who experiment with DMT are not trained to have a stable and positive foundation, thus some ended with negative trips.
Thus a lot of foundation and preventive steps need to be taken before the project is implemented.

The problem is, at present especially fundy theists and many others are living within a defensive psychological silo of >10 feet thick and one mile high. One of the consequences is the below and many other terrible negatives;

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg

I believe DMT [so called Spirit Molecule] will break the walls of that thick psychological silo they are trapped in and facilitate them to view reality in a wider perspective and dissolve the inherent insecurity that drive them [SOME] to commit terrible violence and the
whole range of evils.



A "bad" trip is only bad if one does not understand what makes the trip "bad". One must understand the message of the bad trip to to evolve, similar to us learning from pain physically through trial and error. In this case it is looked upon as a "bad trip", that which manifests as subconscious chaos in the consciousness and projected upon reality.

I believe given balanced environments and a proper guide that understands the drugs and understands themself fully should be the one helping people and in these settings if one is to induce others with molecular therapy of the mind.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:54 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
Artimas wrote:To evolve the brain is to choose what environment one is in and the chemicals/sustenance one uses to survive and live for the next day, by us consuming more molecules and substances we either develop a resistance if they're "toxic" but beneficial, we can choose low dosing and breed resistances into our collective species so we may expand further in being able to sense and perceive by consciously creating new substances or reactions.

This is how the dog was bred, we bred out a lot of their primitive wolf-like instincts and features, by substances, genetics and length of time for change to occur and this is a cycle of consciousness, we could breed dogs and mammals to be almost as conscious as us but they do not have hands and limbs to craft tools so that is why they haven't naturally already, we do though which means if we over time and breeding, introduce substances that are toxic or bad to one it may become beneficial and perceived as good over a possibly long period of time due to building a bodily tolerance/resistance "stress breeding the strong, trial and error, selective breeding and chemical inducing" Same thing applies to us, it's us acting as nature/god because we are it.

The issue is getting others to understand and help them to this state of mind or perception. "The bigger image".

Noted the above for dogs and others but those are trial and error methods which we may be unethical for humans because there naturally and likely side-effects and defects.

However, the advancement of the Human Genome and Human Connectome project can enable potential to advance human development in some ways via targeted, specific, fool proof [no side effects] and holistic methods.


Yeah, they are unethical at the foundation, due to force inducing without consent of dog which is presently unconscious.. But is this not also what we as individuals are trying to do or achieve as a species, evolve ourselves further and wake others up to these facts and understandings of what is and what can/could be? Do you think it is unethical or ethical that we should hog consciousness all to ourselves or try to induce it in other mammals by molecular alterations/environments?
Last edited by Artimas on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:00 am

Reptiles has special reasons due to their need to absorb heat into their body so they turn towards the Sun.

I believe we need more empirical and objective evidence before we can say whether sunlight directed at the pineal gland [with closed eyes] can have any actual positive effects.

Btw too much direct exposure to the Sun can have potential cancer threat.


I agree that too much exposure to sun is bad for the skin, balance/moderation is the method for life as a whole, near if not in all aspects of living. That's the way of living in a system developed and based off of contrast/duality and it's evolution as a trinity (physical manifested conscious/subconscious unique/diverse individual)

I also agree that we need more objective evidence on understanding of certain aspects in body and bodies interaction with reality (minerals, molecules, sunlight, etc.)

Exactly, but do you see what could be a connection? Reptiles still have their pineal glands due to being in the sun consistently, which they're in the sun a lot due to other reasons involving their survival. Which keeps their pineal gland in their evolutionary path by staying in a consistent environment unconsciously forced by other bodily functions as an entire species.

I will upload the pictures on Imgur here soon and show them to you so you may digest and or hopefully correlate.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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User avatar
Artimas
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Posts: 3756
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:11 am

Artimas wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:]
Noted the above for dogs and others but those are trial and error methods which we may be unethical for humans because there naturally and likely side-effects and defects.

However, the advancement of the Human Genome and Human Connectome project can enable potential to advance human development in some ways via targeted, specific, fool proof [no side effects] and holistic methods.


Yeah, they are unethical at the foundation, due to force inducing without consent of dog which is presently unconscious.. But is this also not what are trying to also do to ourselves? evolve ourselves further and wake others up to these facts and understandings of what is and what can/could be? Do you think it is unethical or ethical that we should hog consciousness all to ourselves or try to induce it in other mammals by molecular alterations/environments?

One point on why humanity need to accelerate and expedite to widen the span of human consciousness via an altered states of consciousness is the following;

    1. Humans has evolved their consciousness to have a higher sense of self-consciousness.
    2. From that humanity has gathered and expanded their range of knowledge.
    3. Unfortunately with an expansion of knowledge, humanity is now aware of the greater range of possible threats of catastrophic scales.
    4. Examples are those that could exterminate the human species, such as WMDs [physical and biological], religion (especially Islam) threats from space - rogue asteroids appearing out of nowhere heading toward Earth, depleting of natural resources, and others.

To counter the above threats via co-operation and teaming up by all within humanity, we need more advancing knowledge, competence and resources. It is possible psychedelics like DMT and other can be useful [within control circumstances and conditions] for this endeavor.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:18 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:]
Noted the above for dogs and others but those are trial and error methods which we may be unethical for humans because there naturally and likely side-effects and defects.

However, the advancement of the Human Genome and Human Connectome project can enable potential to advance human development in some ways via targeted, specific, fool proof [no side effects] and holistic methods.


Yeah, they are unethical at the foundation, due to force inducing without consent of dog which is presently unconscious.. But is this also not what are trying to also do to ourselves? evolve ourselves further and wake others up to these facts and understandings of what is and what can/could be? Do you think it is unethical or ethical that we should hog consciousness all to ourselves or try to induce it in other mammals by molecular alterations/environments?

One point on why humanity need to accelerate and expedite to widen the span of human consciousness via an altered states of consciousness is the following;

    1. Humans has evolved their consciousness to have a higher sense of self-consciousness.
    2. From that humanity has gathered and expanded their range of knowledge.
    3. Unfortunately with an expansion of knowledge, humanity is now aware of the greater range of possible threats of catastrophic scales.
    4. Examples are those that could exterminate the human species, such as WMDs [physical and biological], religion (especially Islam) threats from space - rogue asteroids appearing out of nowhere heading toward Earth, depleting of natural resources, and others.

To counter the above threats via co-operation and teaming up by all within humanity, we need more advancing knowledge, competence and resources. It is possible psychedelics like DMT and other can be useful [within control circumstances and conditions] for this endeavor.


Agree and this is my message as well and what I try to convey through learning perceptions of others, so I may communicate my experiences and understandings to them in their language or way of comprehension.

I was just thinking of possibilities in regards to consciousness as a whole of life more so than the urgency of mankinds pressing and expanding issues and the willful breeding of the avoidance and staying ignorant to these issues.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Silhouette » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:30 pm

Pandora wrote:
Silhouette wrote:Have you ever heard of a metaphor?

Well, coming from you, I couldn’t really tell if you’re being literal or figurative.

Haha, I love it. This way you don't have to trust anything I say because I've been "corrupted". I guess this makes further discussion fruitless? And by fruitless I don't mean without apples etc., I mean no alternative consideration by yourself is going to be achieved - just in case you can't tell if I'm being metaphorical here...

Pandora wrote:
Silhouette wrote:...what you experience under the effects of e.g. LSD is the same reality as always -

It is not the same reality. I see it as a corruption of perception of reality.

It's the same reality, perceived differently. The same thing is done when you think outside of the box, beyond the current or popular interpretation of reality, except it's facilitated. Creativity isn't corrupted thinking - in fact it's the exact opposite. To the Conservative, anything new that deviates from the normal and accepted is scary - that is how you are coming across here: very Conservative minded. Do you agree?

Pandora wrote:The often recurring theme in drug use (and other spiritual quests) is the goal of dissolving ego. One of the functions of ego is reality testing or recognizing and modulating the boundary between conscious and unconscious material (reality vs one’s personal feeling about reality). When ego is dissolved (or weakened) the person is no longer able to distinguish between the two. The goal for a healthy personality should not be to destroy one’s ego, but to discipline and strengthen it.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_principle

Ego, in the Freudian sense that you're using it, is different to the sense in which it's being used when its dissolution is the goal of drug use. You don't take psychedelics to lose your ability to recognise the boundary between conscious and unconscious, nor is this what happens when you take them. "Ego" as in the the identity of yourself as separate from the world is challenged, for sure - you can experience what it is like to be a continuation throughout existence "one with everything". This of course can be achieved without drugs and there are entire religions based around the attempt to achieve this state of unity. You probably don't realise you're casually trashing entire swathes of the world population who take e.g. Buddhism seriously? Maybe you do and you think it's all hippie nonsense because the goal is to discipline and strengthen the conventional interpretation of reality - like your own religion: praise the norm and passive acceptance!

Pandora wrote:And only two of those fall within normal human experiences. The drug induced experience is either accidental (as in case of poisoning) or artificially induced. I’m not schizophrenic either, and yet, I know of the dangers of treating such information equally. They do not belong to the same reality, and should not be treated equally.

I know both. I can treat them unequally, and value them respectively. When you are sober you can still remember what you learned and apply it to your "normal" life - if you wish. Or you can disregard it - up to you.

Pandora wrote:I do have some experience with Jungian psychology and hypnosis, and I know of dangers of tinkering with subconscious. When your critical judgement is subdued what you perceive and what someone perceives from outside looking in is not the same, and in such a case, I would go with the outside perspective as being more correct one. Some small examples, everyone is hailing ayahuasca drinking ceremony as the holy or holies. But who really pays attention to the fact that the physical body, after drinking ayahuasca, wants to violently expel it from all orifices? The body treats it as poison. Is the body wrong when it tries to cleanse itself from it? The guru Terrance McKenna achieved a great following and drug induced visions (“insights”), but could not even save his own marriage. Most famous drug users are not involved in practical day to day concerns. Most are story tellers, writers, actors, musicians, comedians, or philosophers, etc. They dive into phantasmagorical worlds only to recreate them, visually, acoustically, or literarily. What about realistic solutions to complex real world problems such as poverty, world hunger, overpopulation, etc., something that does not involve people joining the drug culture, or turning to drugs for answers?

Ooo hypnosis, sounds like an artificially induced state of mind where the conscious and unconscious are merged! Is that only bad if you ingest something in induce it? Or have you decided it is equally dangerous?

I don't think being unable to save a marriage is any reflection on wisdom achieved through drug usage - it's extremely common for all kinds of lifestyles and often advisable. Again you're sounding very Conservative, not least also with that implicit mild derision towards the arts. "What about the realistic instead of the creative?" I find that most of the time, real world problems are more hindered by lack of creativity than held back by it. The Conservative insistence is on sticking to the accepted that brought about these real world problems in the first place - the challenge is to solve the problems accepted as normal, and even if drugs won't necessarily give you the answer, they give you the extra experience to go by when considering solutions. Your pool of considered choices is larger. You won't be unaware, I'm sure, of the somewhat clichéd solution of drug users to love everyone and to pursue world peace. It's funny, I think, how the attitude is to disregard such sympathies and the means taken towards them, but to instead pursue world peace and lament the lack of love that's causing all its problems...
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:45 pm

Nope. OK I'll see the pictures.



https://imgur.com/a/tSrinwd

A few pictures I deem interesting and good for correlating the high possibilities of what is and what we should be looking for in regards to literal evidence/experimentation.

The elements and alchemy should still be regarded, not just in its basic method of being chemistry and only objective or exploration of physical molecules but also alchemy of changing and benefitting the mind as well through transmutation, change of matter or of something from one form to another enhanced one.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:07 am

Artimas wrote:Pandora,

"It is not the same reality. I see it as a corruption of perception of reality.

The often recurring theme in drug use (and other spiritual quests) is the goal of dissolving ego. One of the functions of ego is reality testing or recognizing and modulating the boundary between conscious and unconscious material (reality vs one’s personal feeling about reality). When ego is dissolved (or weakened) the person is no longer able to distinguish between the two. The goal for a healthy personality should not be to destroy one’s ego, but to discipline and strengthen it."
You're associating "drug use" with psychedelics, which are nothing like other typical, abused and addicting drugs like the ones in society.

But it isn't a corruption of reality because you're still in reality and can function in reality Pandora, when you're on a trip you can see more, it's as if your eye opens wider and it's an Hd reality, you can control the dilation of your eyes as well and control what you see and feel by thought like colors out of light and geometrical patterns in wood or texturing of reality/objective surrounding. I am not saying we need these drugs to understand what we can understand already, I am saying we should experiment with these drugs to see if there is anymore to understand or for solutions and exploration, about reality, they enhance creativity..

You can still interact with reality, play games, talk to people, eat small portions, go to the bathroom, etc. What one imagines and is feeling is how the trip goes or feels. Like listening to classic rock on lsd or mushrooms is an amazing experience, the music is magical and one can appreciate it even more so and notice the hidden subliminals and what not, it isn't needed to appreciate the music, it isn't needed at all it just makes it better if you do try them, because they show a grand and bigger image/perspective and one can correlate more information about it, whatever the subject, music is only one example.

You're right, it is wrong to destroy or try to destroy ones ego but they don't destroy the ego or kill it, an ego death is not permanent unless psychosis or some dieassociative disorder is already in genetics. They call it ego death because it's in the moment, not permanent Pandora.. It doesn't really "kill" the ego, it just makes it easily distinguishable from the subconscious and easy to judge or understand it for what it is, a byproduct and collection of ideas. People that say they have killed the ego, the first question I ask them is, "what is your name?" And they respond with their name, this is direct evidence that it doesn't completely "kill ego" it's merely a temporary state, like I said, a mirror.

"And only two of those fall within normal human experiences. The drug induced experience is either accidental (as in case of poisoning) or artificially induced. I’m not schizophrenic either, and yet, I know of the dangers of treating such information equally. They do not belong to the same reality, and should not be treated equally."

/You/ and /I/ don't get to determine what reality is in the way of which you are trying, Pandora... It just is, nature. Experience is experience, if I feel terror in a dream, that automatically chalks down to not being real because the experience isn't available to you? So what if I have a heart attack from a dream, is that not real? The heart attack sure was though, right? Because it's observable to /you/? Opinion means nothing to reality, you thinking something is /accidental/ is opinion, not reality. They should be treated equally. You don't understand the full implication of what a psychedelic is Pandora so how can you say or determine what it is or what it feels like? How do you know what ice cream tastes like and what coffee tastes like if you have never tried them? Want me to describe them to you? That's what we're trying to do Pandora, describe the experience to you so you can make sense of it but it isn't working because it is a very difficult experience to explain with you believing us, you have to step outside of your ego and trust us and I know that is difficult, it's why I say they are the /evidence/ to a lot of aspects in humanity, especially with art, language/symbolism and people trying to express psyche in a past and current tense.

They do belong to the same reality, they're literally drugs in this reality that we can ingest and they don't harm or kill us, yet sugar and other drugs you advocate for have killed people, literally. So is this what you determine as "should not be treated as equal"? this is the issue with society, not wanting to change things due to comfort, a trap in understanding what is but not understanding what could/can be.

"I’ve been studying dreams and the subconscious and honestly I have not really learned anything significant or life changing from my dreams. One thing that I did learn is that it is not a good idea to blend conscious and the subconscious, or to dive head fast into unconscious. When you don’t have any bearings (another function of ego) and nothing to go on, except perhaps your subconscious fears or desires, you’re as good as lost. It’s like getting into car with a blind driver."

Or maybe /you/ just misinterpret your dreams and subconcscious' imagery and inner workings? Do you think this may be a possibility for yourself and not for others or something you are but shouldn't be projecting onto /everyone/ else? Pandora, what if I told you, you could be conscious in a dream, similar to 'lucid dreaming', inside the subconscious imagery and being able to also control and project what you wish to project onto it visually/perceptionly but also be awake while doing so and not only that but also be able to understand it and whilst also still remaining attached to and understanding of reality and how reality actually functions/universal laws? Is that still a /blind driver/?


"No, I don’t have experience of LSD or or other psychadelics, nor do I feel the need to try them, but I think you already know that, and you know my position of drug use. I do have some experience with Jungian psychology and hypnosis, and I know of dangers of tinkering with subconscious. When your critical judgement is subdued what you perceive and what someone perceives from outside looking in is not the same, and in such a case, I would go with the outside perspective as being more correct one. Some small examples, everyone is hailing ayahuasca drinking ceremony as the holy or holies. But who really pays attention to the fact that the physical body, after drinking ayahuasca, wants to violently expel it from all orifices? The body treats it as poison. Is the body wrong when it tries to cleanse itself from it? The guru Terrance McKenna achieved a great following and drug induced visions (“insights”), but could not even save his own marriage. Most famous drug users are not involved in practical day to day concerns. Most are story tellers, writers, actors, musicians, comedians, or philosophers, etc. They dive into phantasmagorical worlds only to recreate them, visually, acoustically, or literarily. What about realistic solutions to complex real world problems such as poverty, world hunger, overpopulation, etc., something that does not involve people joining the drug culture, or turning to drugs for answers?"

Ayahuasca isn't the same as normal dmt alone, ayahuasca is a inhibitor/enzyme from a vine in the south/central America's of which is mixed with dmt to create an orally ingestable brew, which is ayahuasca, without this vine or enzyme, one cannot ingest dmt orally due to organs not secreting the proper enzyme of which is used to break down the molecule in that fashion, but if one only smokes it, which a lot of people do, it lasts only around 5-10 minutes through vaporozing it, it lasts around 5 hours if one drinks or orally ingestss dmt/ayahuasca.

It isn't about a /need/ to try them, I don't /need/ to try anything but we do /try/ things, Pandora, new things... all of the time, because we're told they're good, especially the industry of food, hygiene and taking care of oneself, right? So how is a drug that hasn't killed anyone due to them ingesting it but expands perception, bad? It's about trying new things Pandora, and expanding self, not staying limited or comfortable with what is, that's the point of life, expression of self and growth. It would seem to me that you yourself have a biased fear of psychedelics or psychedelic culture. Terence McKenna's visions were merely metaphor and his attempt at describing his own conscious/awareness of his own subconscious, it's subjective because it's his language, his expression of an experience.. It /seems/ subjective, until you experience it.. Do you understand? Evidence is found in consistency, Pandora.. The evidence and consistency of the effects of these drugs and also it's /significant harm/ upon reality/humanity, is against you.
It isn't the same because a dream isn't fully remembered, it's only fragmented imagery that one attempts to piece together with the ego/consciousness in a conscious state but dreams are not so simple as what is pieced together by the state of being awake after. Some dreams are more vivid than others due to being more /profound/ of an unconscious experience and so the consciousness collects that data and stores it ahead of the rest which is then pieced together in an an awakened/conscious state to the best of memories ability.

"We don’t need to use psychadelics to do that. Understanding acquired under impaired perception will produce a wrong understand of self and the world."

That's subjective opinion from experience that /you/ do not possess, Pandora. It isn't about /needing/ them, we don't /need/ anything except the very basics of survival, yet here we are... on the internet, it is a tool of nature to be regarded as sacred and the experiencing of subconsciousness openly discussed as to help correlate imagery and understand possibilities through creativity/understanding of what is and what could/can be.

"I’m saying drug induced insights have no use in our continual survival. It seems like you want everybody drugged up and living in a hive mind of some sort."

So because it's a drug of the mind and you haved a biased /fear/, we should all treat it differently than that of a drug that interacts with the body, even though drugs like alcohol, coffee, sugar, opiates, cigarrettes, etc... are all bad for the body and it's functioning, especially since they're highly addictive and all effect brain/body in negative ways more so than the temporary positives? Is it not up to the individual to determine the worth of these drugs based off of experiencing them?


"We only think we don’t. The bubble is quite fragile and when it bursts, everything will revert back to how it has always worked, even before our first ancestors climbed down the trees."

How do you know this as a fact, Pandora? You know the future?

I think mankind will and can go extinct if it doesn't choose to evolve, do you agree or not? Or do you think we can't survive no matter even if we evolve to understand how to treat our environment and evolve ourself in a quicker fashion?

"It increases an awareness of redundant things, which you call mindfulness. It’s like being an infant who’s endlessly fascinated by all kinds of stimuli around him. You call it enhanced perception; and I call it ultimate retardation.

[You’re probably one of those weird asmr people, too, or that’s something you and other drug users would really like, endless fascination with random and irrelevant stimuli (noise). I bet they call it mindfulness, too. That fad itself also smells very Japanese to me in its mind-set, and Japanese happen to also have quite weak egos. (It’s quite popular with other Asians, too). The “attractive” factor is that it’s not rational or sits down the rational part of the brain. ]"

Ok, this is your opinion/subjective misinterpretation/misunderstanding, also based off of not having dealt or having the experience in which to have an opinion in/for.

That's also ad hominem to try and direct topic at me and what /I/ am. What you determine as noise and what I determine as noise could be different or maybe not so much, your judgement is based off of a lack of knowing and if you do not know, then you also cannot understand. Nothing is truly "irrelevant" nature is all around and it communicates, "irrelevant" is based off of opinion, not objective.


"But not by dissolving ego. It is your only tether to reality"

It doesn't dissolve the ego, it is judgement/critisicm of it, by inner self. A mirror, a literal mirror for the metaphorical, make sense? I am still attached to reality as my identity, easily so, with no schizophrenia or "psychosis" as you claim to be caused by such use, hence, I am here trying to describe blue and the many different flavors of ice cream to you as if you were never to experience them.

"It’s called brain hacking for a reason."

So basic drugs like sugar, caffeine, cigarettes that grant mere temporary boosts to states of mind for a cost of body and risk of addiction are not brain hacking? While psychedelics can grant a permanent understanding of much more exponential concepts/topics? Yet psychedelics to you are /bad/ ? That is not logical or reasonable, Pandora.

"I’m going to pass this one."

Don't pass it, you can go read the studies and experiment with plants for yourself, just because they respond to stimuli differently than we do, does not mean they do not feel. Plants can hear and feel themselves being eaten and also are very aware of the environment around them, due to their inability to move, being cessile organisms.. Awareness is their only trait of which they use to survive, by chemical release, natural defense and preservation mechanisms, etc. Similar to how a brain and body has /mechanisms/ to survive.

"it’s playing a redefining game. The ego, the guardian of reality, is now the evil one, and is holding the “real self” hostage. The evil one has to be dissolved so that the “real self” can emerge and manifest to us the nature of the ultimate reality. Want to see for yourself? Just kill the ego! How brazen is it to say such things when everything in nature around contradicts it."

The ego isn't always the guardian of reality, if it is not understood fully. A lot of peoples ignorance and willful ignorance/evading of understanding and the responsibility of knowing/understanding is what is /evil/, with the implication of /intent/ of course.

We don't kill the ego, it's not possible to do so unless some disassociative disorder in genetics, everything in nature is a physical manifestation of the subconscious, we evolved out of instinct, we're animals, becoming civil.. not the other way around. It isn't a "redefining game" it's an /understanding/ and having an insightful experience game.


"The reality is not the subconscious. That’s subjective reality."

Reality has few rules that state what we can or cannot do subjectively if one takes their thinking outside of a literal only or unreasonable style of thinking and is consistent in this thinking/understanding. One must base ones thinking off of universal laws, this doesn't mean a subjective reality is completely impossible, what's art then if subjective projection into reality is not "Reality"?

We manifested out of the subconscious, instincts and nature, not the opposite, Pandora.

"that the subconscious is more like chaos, yes."

Do you think it is better to run from this chaos, or to understand it further through correlation of imagery?

"Conscious as dream of the subconscious? Sounds like an inverted or confused perspective to me. Did you mean instincts? Just because we evolved additional perceptions, such as self-awareness and sense of time, does not mean they are illusory, or just a dream. Why waste so much effort with trial and error? Just to dream? In evolution, things that don’t keep pace with reality disappear. Our higher functions evolved to facilitate this, they were not arbitrary."

Pandora, I am not saying our perception is a /dream/ I am saying all experiencing is experience, subjective or not, there are lessons and understandings to be had and seeked. No, consciousness isn't the dream of the subconscious, it's the evolution of it.. /reality/ and /experiencing/ are the dreams of the subconscious, we may experience, due to subconscious' evolution into a state of duality, consciousness/subconsciousness and what we may interact with, is the trinity, the /dream/. We are both the spectator and spectated, make sense? It's not about just /dreaming/ Pandora, it's about helping others understand and speed up our understanding as a collective species so we may utilize unique diversity and manifest a better model of society/reality based off of universal wants/needs and a more logical/reasonable approach to issues/future. To further education, to help others gain the spark of curiosity back and to experience more, to willfully evolve.

"You’re romanticising subconscious again. The danger of delving into subconscious is that you may become lost in it. It takes over and you’re essentially sleepwalking. Hypnosis works this way too (and you can hypnotize yourself). The subconscious can trick you, as well. One example that happens in lucid dreaming work is false awakening. You don’t want the subconscious taking over your conscious."

I don't think I am, unfortunately.. I am dealing with facts here only, observable proofs through experiencing. The subconscious can't trick you, intuition, ideas, and dreams based off of universal law are all possibilities through/in reality, the misunderstanding of the subconscious imagery through the simplicity of the ego is what can /trick/ you, just like the ego can be tricked in normal reality, /optical illusions/. It depends upon one's ability of thought and intentions of which may or may not lead to an understanding.

"The egos job is to negotiate between different environments. It has to be discriminating."

The ego's /job/ is to be able to perform interaction with environment through being conscious, not discriminate against nature/reality, it may only discriminate once an experience is had and that is a subjective experiencing/opinion or lack of. The bodies job is to be discriminating of environment by sensory of experience through being unique/diverse in genetics/environment. An ego is merely a collection of ideas, not the body. The body is the receiver, the ego is the projection of conscious self based off of one's environment, which it uses the body as it's receiver of experience to interact with environment.

"But your “conscious” evolution involves giving control to the subconscious, the one you call eternal and wise."

Do you not deem nature, eternal and wise? do you not appreciate what is and what can/could be out of or due too what is? Nature is a series of reactions, do you think these reactions will cease when one dies as a temporary collection of idea's/ego? It's not about giving control to the subconcscious, it's about seeking balance between subconscious and consciousness, to experience and understand both sides as to further ones own evolution along with it's species, through art and expression of diverse understanding of what is and what can be through a model of thinking based off of reality/universal laws.

"You cannot weaken ego AND get rid of instincts like fear or anger; that’s ultimate hacking and suicide (...homicide?)"

It's not about weakening ego, it's about controlling the manifestation of ego through understanding. Fear and anger are both irrational states of perception due to fear often being of/to the unknown and anger often to the inability to cope with the known/reality. Both instinctive traits through both genetics and induced in/through environment, they are due to a lack of understanding and practiced out of that. If one practices and seeks understanding through consistency of thoughts and healthy actions/routine/coping then one may conquer fear and negative impulsive aspects of ego through an understanding of how, why, when, who, what, where and self.

"I can see their effects on your judgement."

And the lie detector test has detected that this, is a lie!
You cannot comprehend some of what I have said and have been saying, this much is obvious due to your lack of experience with a psychedelic. It has been proven above. My judgement is sound and based off of reality/universal objectivity. Evidence through consistent results.

"or they think they do."

How can you comment on the perception with no experience? You're the one choosing not to have an experience based off of fear, Pandora.. not me.

"And I was warning you that manifesting subconscious is dangerous on the account that you can become “lost in it”. You’re already giving it the preference- eternal subconscious as the driver and source of all. There is a reason why it was designed to stay hidden, and it’s not so that you can go on some divine treasure hunt and find the key to universe and everything. It’s a self-fulfilling prophesy perception loop, that some people do not escape from."

Except I am not lost in it, my description of the experience is what you're percieving as being "lost in subconsciousness" because you lack the experience to visualize or correlate what I am stating. It was obviously not designed to stay hidden, considering one can be conscious of the subconscious and there is objective proof in reality through natures own design /psychedelics/ and even in the body itself. It isn't about finding the key to the universe, it's about finding the key to the self, which is a force of the universe. You misconstrue the messages and the understanding of the "divine treasure hunt", knowledge and experience is worth more than gold. It isn't self fulfilling based off of things not achievable in reality though, my fulfillment of self is through translating my unique understanding which is one based off of logic, reason and universal laws to people who have yet to understand what is and what can/could be.


"*Pandora shakes her head* Based on what you’ve been saying so far it is not science but mysticism you are after, but what you will get is psychosis.
You will get what you really want. Not reality, but your reality. The subconscious will give you that."

What I want is a reality based off of universal wants/needs, a educated and understanding populace so we may evolve faster experience more based off of that, to create a better loop. Not mysticism and "psychosis", that's your own inexperience talking.


"You’re equating things like evolution and psychadelic drugs. I do not see a connection. Hallucinations are not conductive to survival, hense they are not compatible. In fact, you should not be using them in the same sentence."

This reality isn't comfortable to me because it's mundane and forced entrapment. It isn't so easy as to "move away" and be balanced between nature and technology, just face that facts that mankinds societies are unjust. Now it the issue is getting man to accept responsibility and seek the unknown instead of staying content with the comfortable, you misconstrue the present with the past in terms of /evolution/ and /devolution/. We're in a society that is devolution at the moment. Our society could be run much more efficiently to further our evolution quicker through understanding and education. Escaping comfort and fear due to unknown/willful ignorance which is /devolution/ is conducive to /survival/. We will be wiped out if we stay in this state, eventually.

Drugs play a huge role in evolution by creating multiple ways/angles of perspective/perception and enhancement of our bodily function with reality for the purpose of finishing tasks quicker, understanding better.. oh wait, not understanding more or drugs based on enhancement of such because that would crumble this illogically run society that is based off of willful ignorance due to fears of unknown, avoidance of self responsibility and being comfortable with /what is/ instead of seeking what can/could be.


"Yes, if only it can fill a stomach of a starving child in Africa. Does he care if a famous actor makes his world better by hanging a psychadelic painting on his mansion wall?
Also, your bigger image of eternal subconscious that dreamt reality into being, including consciousness and ego and all, just because, is very questionable."

The ideas that come from the creativity and understanding that it manifests, could do such. You're attaching physical culture and a literal only/objective only style of thinking or perspective through an attempt of using ones subjective art and your misunderstanding of the experiencing within the culture to not being able to solve world issues, which is a message that is not accurate and misconstrued.


"If you give subconscious the reigns, you’re no longer in control."

And if you give the ego the full control, you no longer live as self. It's a state of balance that is needed, a consciousness of both sides, the duality that manifest out of subconsciousness.

"It’s not the same, because you’re interfering the the same perception apparatus that is supposed to explore reality. That’s why all scientific instruments have to be carefully calibrated before hand."

But it is the same because it is a conscious exploration of self, which is in reality. We are a tool of nature, the point is to understand how to use the tool. One must understand for the sake of understanding, with this mindset one can evolve consciously and have a choice in how one does

"That’s a bad starting premise. Why would one want to seek reality in illusion?"

Because reality is an illusion on a mass/macro scale in terms of evolution since Subconscious instincts evolved into Consciousness(awareness of those instincts), just like the ego is a collection of ideas and those ideas may change based off of understanding, which makes the ego /temporary/ "illusive" in it's controlling interaction with "reality". You're claiming subjectivity is illusion but do not have the experience of this specific experience which is based off of a subjective understanding since language/comprehension is unique and diverse through an enhanced state 0f perception and correlation of imagery/subconsciousness.

"I didn’t talk about death. Is the goal to bypass the fear of death?"

No it's about getting others to understand for the sake of understanding and bypass any and all fear by strengthening ones understanding of the path to/of self. Death isn't what people perceive it to be and yes it what a lot of people who do not understand, fear based off of their misunderstanding of what death fully implies.

"So I take it you just don’t want to pay the price of higher awareness, so you devolve your consciousness, or redefine reality and self. Again, the allure of timelessness."

Not even, I love that we are in a timeless state of duality/trinity of which can evolve, I appreciate higher awareness and pay the price everyday and even now, due to your lack of understanding the way in which I comprehend and the price is due to my own obligation to and in attempt at breaking down my own perception in a language you can comprehend, the transfer of knowledge/understanding of experience through subjectivity.


"Do not compare coffee, sugar and red meat to hallucinogens. I have never tripped or hallucinated on coffee, or eating a steak."
That's the point... those are basic drugs that enhance us temporarily at the cost of causing slow or quick harm to the body based off of usage and or addiction. Psychedelics are opposite of that, a state of perception or understanding of reality that may be permanent at the risk of triggering genetic disorders, of which those genetic disorders can also be bred out through environment and molecular therapy.

"People find other ways out. Some people move to other countries. Some go off the grid. It’s actually pretty amazing what solutions people come up with if you really look into it. And drugs are not involved, just research and actually going out and looking for those things."

The only way out is in, running away from society to avoid it's issues is not a solution to those issues, that's only a selfish solution by appeasing to their subjective self and it's ignorant thinking or attempt at greater satisfaction by being pretentious of what mankind is(nature) and fearful misunderstanding of the unknown. People must accept self responsibility and try to help advance humanity and it's societies by understanding and then seeking the root of issues and removing/replacing them with better ideas that would focus on improving an always changing and or everlasting "current" society based off of universal needs/wants through what is consistent in opinion to an extent.


"I think I already explained to you why drugs cannot be responsible for our evolution. And drugs are now becoming increasingly legal and popular. Where is the government conspiracy here? Where I live, there is a homelessness and drug problem. The government turns a blind eye on it, and just keeps throwing more tax payer money on it, and it’s only getting worse. Did more drugs help those people?"

We are made up of molecules that interact, we are conscious drugs walking around.... drugs(body) are/is our receiver and being able to alter the receiver (body) to enhance awareness permanently or temporarily, both with possible costs that one must deem satisfactory or worth it based off of experience. You're conflating or wrongfully attaching manmade drugs to control populace through "big pharma" and military importing of opiates/drugs and based off of a monopoly system and fear to a drug wrongfully labeled by simple misunderstanding, a drug that enhances perception and has more benefits than negatives. Meth has an effect of which is worse than the benefit, this doesn't mean psychedelics do too. That is your own misconception of what psychedelics are and the experiencing of "hallucinations". A label wrongfully given considering reality is a macro version of a hallucination, (evolution of subconsciousness into physically, conscious individuals.


You main rebuttals can be translated into either redefining things around, or claiming: Pandora, you don’t understand what I’m trying to say, just do the drug and you’ll see for yourself! But you do not dare to question the source, itself, the drug. Everything, reality, normal sense of self, and the workings of everyday world become irrelevant at face value in comparison. Is this not how addictions work? You defend them.

I want to comment on:

I wrote-

It’s not the same, because you’re interfering the the same perception apparatus that is supposed to explore reality. That’s why all scientific instruments have to be carefully calibrated before hand."

And you said-

But it is the same because it is a conscious exploration of self, which is in reality. We are a tool of nature, the point is to understand how to use the tool. One must understand for the sake of understanding, with this mindset one can evolve consciously and have a choice in how one does.—

This is a mistake. To begin with, psychadelics distort the sense of self (a normal sense of self), so what self is exploring what self? You think the observing consciousness cannot be corrupted, cannot be wrong? This is a very simple and fundamental mistake. You take a substance that you know alters perception itself and call what you see as a result of it a reality on par with normally perceived reality, or even greater. I call it a fruit of a poisoned tree.
Your faith is placed on a drug (!) over normal reality. Do you not see that?
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:21 am

An emerging business model:

https://therooster.com/blog/cannabis-we ... ychedelics

What kind of people will we be producing in the long run which will be encouraged to run to drugs and embrace chemically induced states of happiness when they don’t like what they experience in reality?
This is perhaps a similar question to what value would human life have if we lived forever?
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:29 am

I didn't say the stuff is actually there that you perceive did I? reality is still observable and distinctive, conscious self manifests subconscious feelings onto reality and you can tell the difference between the trip and between reality. My faith is placed in self and reality, both. The drug is merely a tool. How is it on par with reality or greater than reality when it is part of reality....

I am certainly not addicted either.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:32 am

Pandora wrote:An emerging business model:

https://therooster.com/blog/cannabis-we ... ychedelics

What kind of people will we be producing in the long run which will be encouraged to run to drugs and embrace chemically induced states of happiness when they don’t like what they experience in reality?
This is perhaps a similar question to what value would human life have if we lived forever?


That's a misconception that I do them to be "happy". Not even close to being a similar question.
You don't have any experience with it to call it anything really, dmt doesn't even make you vomit or have diarrhea, that's only ayahuasca, due to the enzyme in the vine, your point of the drug being "toxic" is moot.. You have chosen to limit your perception.
Last edited by Artimas on Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Artimas
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:40 am

The drug is merely a tool. How is it on par with reality or greater than reality when it is part of reality....
. What is an illusion then?
Does it exist?
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:44 am

Pandora wrote:
The drug is merely a tool. How is it on par with reality or greater than reality when it is part of reality....
. What is an illusion then?
Does it exist?

Not physically manifested, it's not the visuals that you get insight from, it's your own mind, from thinking and your thoughts/feelings display on top of reality.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


Image Image
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Artimas
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:00 am

If you believe that a mind can be mistaken, or is capable of misperceiving reality, then you must consider the possibility that a hallucinating mind is having a wrong understanding of reality.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:26 am

Pandora wrote:If you believe that a mind can be mistaken, or is capable of misperceiving reality, then you must consider the possibility that a hallucinating mind is having a wrong understanding of reality.


I wouldn't say it's a wrong understanding of reality. It simply gives you more angles to look at reality from, many more.

The mind can misperceive reality itself through optical illusions, does this mean we have a wrong understanding of reality?

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


Image Image
User avatar
Artimas
Emancipator of ignorance and also Chameleon upon the stars
 
Posts: 3756
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:47 pm
Location: Earth, Milky Way

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