Refute this idea of truth please

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Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Anomaly654 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:00 pm

Refute this notion of truth


I take the position that truth is preexistent in the fabric of reality. For the most part it’s there and we find it. We can also ‘create’ our own subjective, mutable truths, for instance a consensus of human minds decide the shape, design, inscriptions and materials used to print bills and stamp coins. Certain denominations thus have attributable value. Attributable value can be falsified or removed from individual components of currency by destruction, defacing, etc. Following this example, truth seems strongly associated with design.

Arguments against the idea of truth as preexistent in reality typically center on the claim that value requires an intellect. Some would argue that any mind is sufficient, i.e., higher animals, the claim goes, also perceive value and impose it into their existence the same as humans. This view is controversial unproven, and I take the position that only a mind with at minimum intellectual capability (human or higher) is able to in any sense impose or apprehend value.

The manifest problem of course is that the so-called “serious metaphysician” is expected to limit himself to natural explanations. I’m a theist and freely accept the ‘metaphysic of inherent value’ (MIV) so-called for lack of a better designation, is, by this standard, essentially a theology. But I also believe this view has analytical coherence whose function can be traced from hypothesis to instantiation in factual existence.

But MIV doesn’t have to be theology. I recall reading that Richard Dawkins once commented that he’d embrace the idea that aliens from another galaxy created life on earth rather than allow the idea of God. Maybe value was somehow imposed on our existence by aliens. Or one might argue that a mind isn't necessary for value to be preexistent, though I’m not sure what kind of arguments would be raised to support this idea.

It seems to me dismissal of MIV on the basis that no mind capable of imposing value into reality exists so the hypothesis has to be rejected, while commonly accepted today, is nonetheless circular and prevents one from giving objective consideration to the evidence. Specific critiques of MIV are welcome.
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:54 am

Which definition of 'value' are you using?
Check here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/value

I define what is of value or is a valuable in terms of survival.
Empirically, the ability to breathe is most valuable within a continuum and range of values, note Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. I take it that anyone would readily exchange whatever assets of value they have with the ability to breathe, or to cure any terminal disease.

Your so-called ‘metaphysic of inherent value’ (MIV) if has any value must be somehow related to one's survival or one's own existence.
There is no MIV existing independently from human psychology and this is reducible to one's own existential psychology and that of the collective.

Non-humans do have an implied sense of value but such is more instinctive where whatever naturally favor their survival is always preferred over lesser ones.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Anomaly654 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:19 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:Which definition of 'value' are you using?
Check here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/value

I define what is of value or is a valuable in terms of survival.
Empirically, the ability to breathe is most valuable within a continuum and range of values, note Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. I take it that anyone would readily exchange whatever assets of value they have with the ability to breathe, or to cure any terminal disease.

Your so-called ‘metaphysic of inherent value’ (MIV) if has any value must be somehow related to one's survival or one's own existence.
There is no MIV existing independently from human psychology and this is reducible to one's own existential psychology and that of the collective.

Non-humans do have an implied sense of value but such is more instinctive where whatever naturally favor their survival is always preferred over lesser ones.

Hi Prismatic. Thanks for responding.
Here is the definition I use for MIV:

Value
Truth and falsity are the two dynamic denominations of value inherent in the information of all existents as a primary “condition of being” from which value—often formulated as goods and evils—derives.

Truth function
Truth potential in an existent engenders natural reciprocal dispositions with truth in other entities, effecting the organization, interaction and compatibility of associated existents, i.e., particulars, properties and relations.
The power of truth to induce proper function between existents operates under the administration of external force (Form) in various modes, resulting in the proper ordering of reality and production within this organization of characteristic functions and goods: unity, harmony, accord, concurrence, perfection, rightness, precision, etc. Falsity is truth corrupted and stands in natural opposition to it.

You've told me how you define value and how MIV would have to be adapted to your view to be valid. Your view stands naturally opposed to the above definition. The question asked in the op remains: how would you rebut my definition of value?
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Silhouette » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:05 am

Anomaly654 wrote:Refute this notion of truth

I'm trying to distill this argument to a more syllogistic form to aid in its potential refutation. Perhaps you can assist me.

Anomaly654 wrote:I take the position that truth is preexistent in the fabric of reality. For the most part it’s there and we find it. We can also ‘create’ our own subjective, mutable truths, for instance a consensus of human minds decide the shape, design, inscriptions and materials used to print bills and stamp coins. Certain denominations thus have attributable value. Attributable value can be falsified or removed from individual components of currency by destruction, defacing, etc. Following this example, truth seems strongly associated with design.

This paragraph would appear to contain the conclusion, that "truth is preexistent in the fabric of reality".
The mention of the possibility of subjective truth appears to be an auxiliary case, not fundamental to your argument but supporting of it.

Anomaly654 wrote:Arguments against the idea of truth as preexistent in reality typically center on the claim that value requires an intellect. Some would argue that any mind is sufficient, i.e., higher animals, the claim goes, also perceive value and impose it into their existence the same as humans. This view is controversial unproven, and I take the position that only a mind with at minimum intellectual capability (human or higher) is able to in any sense impose or apprehend value.

This paragraph suggests that counter arguments are regularly invalid - thereby at least supporting your position if not proving it.
So you do not subscribe to the idea that "value requires an intellect", and go on to clarify that minds would at least need to be human in order to value in such a way - an auxiliary supporting point once again.
Is this premise intended to set up a proof by contradiction? That value requires intellect?

Anomaly654 wrote:The manifest problem of course is that the so-called “serious metaphysician” is expected to limit himself to natural explanations. I’m a theist and freely accept the ‘metaphysic of inherent value’ (MIV) so-called for lack of a better designation, is, by this standard, essentially a theology. But I also believe this view has analytical coherence whose function can be traced from hypothesis to instantiation in factual existence.

Is this the second premise? That so-called serious metaphysicians are expected to limit themselves to natural explanations?
Is this meant to be counter to the premise that value requires intellect?
The rest appears only to be a qualification of any possible associations with theism.

Anomaly654 wrote:It seems to me dismissal of MIV on the basis that no mind capable of imposing value into reality exists so the hypothesis has to be rejected, while commonly accepted today, is nonetheless circular and prevents one from giving objective consideration to the evidence. Specific critiques of MIV are welcome.

It seems that here we attempt the argument:
P1) no mind capable of imposing value into reality exists
P2) (supposed) objective consideration requires this
therefore it is not objectively the case that there is no mind capable of imposing value into reality

Here valuation heavily privileges objective criteria over subjective, as though objective valuation is the primary criterium, which of course is circular: if you presume objective truth and value, and require objective truth and value in order to disprove this, then of course you are "begging the question".

So in conclusion, I do not see a valid syllogism that shows contradiction through:
1) value requires an intellect
2) serious metaphysicians are expected to limit themselves to natural explanations
to
3) truth is preexistent in the fabric of reality
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:47 am

Anomaly654 wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Which definition of 'value' are you using?
Check here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/value

I define what is of value or is a valuable in terms of survival.
Empirically, the ability to breathe is most valuable within a continuum and range of values, note Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. I take it that anyone would readily exchange whatever assets of value they have with the ability to breathe, or to cure any terminal disease.

Your so-called ‘metaphysic of inherent value’ (MIV) if has any value must be somehow related to one's survival or one's own existence.
There is no MIV existing independently from human psychology and this is reducible to one's own existential psychology and that of the collective.

Non-humans do have an implied sense of value but such is more instinctive where whatever naturally favor their survival is always preferred over lesser ones.

Hi Prismatic. Thanks for responding.
Here is the definition I use for MIV:

Value
Truth and falsity are the two dynamic denominations of value inherent in the information of all existents as a primary “condition of being” from which value—often formulated as goods and evils—derives.

Truth function
Truth potential in an existent engenders natural reciprocal dispositions with truth in other entities, effecting the organization, interaction and compatibility of associated existents, i.e., particulars, properties and relations.
The power of truth to induce proper function between existents operates under the administration of external force (Form) in various modes, resulting in the proper ordering of reality and production within this organization of characteristic functions and goods: unity, harmony, accord, concurrence, perfection, rightness, precision, etc. Falsity is truth corrupted and stands in natural opposition to it.

You've told me how you define value and how MIV would have to be adapted to your view to be valid. Your view stands naturally opposed to the above definition. The question asked in the op remains: how would you rebut my definition of value?

How is my definition of value and MIV being reduced to survival wrong?

Note truth and falsity are also reducible to survival if you know how to navigate philosophically via the complex labyrinth down to the source.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Anomaly654 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:22 pm

Silhouette wrote:
Anomaly654 wrote:Refute this notion of truth


This paragraph would appear to contain the conclusion, that "truth is pre-existent in the fabric of reality". The mention of the possibility of subjective truth appears to be an auxiliary case, not fundamental to your argument but supporting of it.

You either over thought the op or I didn’t communicate clearly.

Yes, conclusion is truth is pre-existent in the fabric of reality. I used an example of the existence of subjective truth to suggest that the two—objective, absolute pre-existent truth and mutable subjective truth are compatible features of the same reality. In retrospect, it should have been left out. Didn’t present it clearly, failed to provide examples and the inclusion of attributable subjective truth wasn’t necessary to the request for refutation of the conclusion.


This paragraph suggests that counter arguments are regularly invalid - thereby at least supporting your position if not proving it.
So you do not subscribe to the idea that "value requires an intellect", and go on to clarify that minds would at least need to be human in order to value in such a way - an auxiliary supporting point once again.
Is this premise intended to set up a proof by contradiction? That value requires intellect?

No, just trying to flesh out what I understand to be typical views of truth as starting point for discussion. Most require a mind as prerequisite to value. I agree with the premise, but assume some may argue that a mind isn’t needed; I’d like to hear those arguments. I also believe value requires a mind. Obviously, if truth is a pre-existent component of reality, it couldn’t have come from a human mind.

Within philosophy particularly and the non-philosophical world generally, it appears truth is assumed to be entirely a feature of human minds. I recall reading an argument some years ago by someone who included any intelligent mind as recognizers/formulators of truth. Hence the mention of varieties of minds relative to value.

Is this the second premise? That so-called serious metaphysicians are expected to limit themselves to natural explanations?
Is this meant to be counter to the premise that value requires intellect?


No, I read a paper recently in which it was put forth roughly that “serious metaphysicians” limited themselves to naturalist methodology. It was included 1) to see if the notion prompted agreement or dispute, 2) to contrast what I take to be the status quo position with the implications raised by MIV.

It seems that here we attempt the argument:
P1) no mind capable of imposing value into reality exists
P2) (supposed) objective consideration requires this
therefore it is not objectively the case that there is no mind capable of imposing value into reality

Here valuation heavily privileges objective criteria over subjective, as though objective valuation is the primary criterium, which of course is circular: if you presume objective truth and value, and require objective truth and value in order to disprove this, then of course you are "begging the question".

So in conclusion, I do not see a valid syllogism that shows contradiction through:
1) value requires an intellect
2) serious metaphysicians are expected to limit themselves to natural explanations
to
3) truth is pre-existent in the fabric of reality


1) I hadn’t intended to frame the discussion in formal logic. The salient points in my thinking are:

1. Many suppose that all value is subjective and mutable
2. Most of these appear to suppose that a mind necessarily precedes value
3. Serious metaphysicians are expected to accept the conclusion that no mind could exist antecedent to those produced by evolution (restatement of 1)

I believe:
1) value exists in two denominations, true and false, in the fabric of reality, from which the two in amalgam generate all goods and evils (factual and moral).
2) of the two, truth is by its nature logically objective and absolute; the false can be objective but never absolute
3) Truth is found in things—propositions, scientific laws, semantics, etc. Some truth is attributed by human minds, but truth qua truth is discovered and preexists human minds.
4) value requires a mind. This necessitates a mind preexisting human minds capable of possessing/imposing value on the reality we find ourselves in.

From this I generate MIV as a hypothesis to answer the questions, “what is value, where is it located, how does it operate”?
I suppose I’d frame it like this:
1) value necessitates a mind for its existence
2) though value can be imposed by human minds, it exists prior to the existence of human minds as a feature of the reality we find ourselves in
3) value must have been designed into reality by a mind prior to human minds

This should be preceded by having provided evidence for the assumption in 2, but figured it would likely come up in discussion.
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Anomaly654 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:33 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Anomaly654 wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Which definition of 'value' are you using?
Check here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/value

I define what is of value or is a valuable in terms of survival.
Empirically, the ability to breathe is most valuable within a continuum and range of values, note Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. I take it that anyone would readily exchange whatever assets of value they have with the ability to breathe, or to cure any terminal disease.

Your so-called ‘metaphysic of inherent value’ (MIV) if has any value must be somehow related to one's survival or one's own existence.
There is no MIV existing independently from human psychology and this is reducible to one's own existential psychology and that of the collective.

Non-humans do have an implied sense of value but such is more instinctive where whatever naturally favor their survival is always preferred over lesser ones.

Hi Prismatic. Thanks for responding.
Here is the definition I use for MIV:

Value
Truth and falsity are the two dynamic denominations of value inherent in the information of all existents as a primary “condition of being” from which value—often formulated as goods and evils—derives.

Truth function
Truth potential in an existent engenders natural reciprocal dispositions with truth in other entities, effecting the organization, interaction and compatibility of associated existents, i.e., particulars, properties and relations.
The power of truth to induce proper function between existents operates under the administration of external force (Form) in various modes, resulting in the proper ordering of reality and production within this organization of characteristic functions and goods: unity, harmony, accord, concurrence, perfection, rightness, precision, etc. Falsity is truth corrupted and stands in natural opposition to it.

You've told me how you define value and how MIV would have to be adapted to your view to be valid. Your view stands naturally opposed to the above definition. The question asked in the op remains: how would you rebut my definition of value?

How is my definition of value and MIV being reduced to survival wrong?

Note truth and falsity are also reducible to survival if you know how to navigate philosophically via the complex labyrinth down to the source.

I didn't say your view was wrong. I believe using the MIV mentioned in the op I can provide evidence that your view is correct, or that it stands in some demonstrable state of legitimacy. I only noted that your and my approach are opposites and that in stating your view of value there was no refutation of the idea that value pre-exists human minds because it's found woven into reality.
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Anomaly654 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:57 pm

Maybe another way of looking at this for discussion:

I define truth as an object, a real thing (real in its base sense) that has properties (objective truth). It's properties are harmony, accord, propriety, unity, correspondence, union, etc. Falsity, also objective, has properties like discord, conflict, impropriety, disconnection, etc. Falsity, while objective, can never be absolute because its nature is toward chaos and disintegration. Degeneration can't reach the absolute state. Descent into nothingness is the natural outcome of falsity unchecked. Truth qua truth, on the other hand, is the only real absolute. There is no possible world in which it is always absolutely better to attain to higher truth states because the ultimate truth state is absolute perfection. (More discussion points)

It seems to me the naturalist would claim that truth as a purely subjective entity is itself only a property of other things.

Btw, by 'base sense' I mean existents are made out of information. On this view, James Saint's affectance would be raw [unformed] information or being in my world, though he may disagree with this notion from his point of view. Information can be objects or subjects, things or attributes. Anything capable of supplying information to the 'living information' of a mind for apprehension has reality of some sort. These are presuppositions I use but not necessary to the idea of truth as an objective thing.
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:36 am

Anomaly654 wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
Anomaly654 wrote:You've told me how you define value and how MIV would have to be adapted to your view to be valid. Your view stands naturally opposed to the above definition. The question asked in the op remains: how would you rebut my definition of value?

How is my definition of value and MIV being reduced to survival wrong?

Note truth and falsity are also reducible to survival if you know how to navigate philosophically via the complex labyrinth down to the source.

I didn't say your view was wrong. I believe using the MIV mentioned in the op I can provide evidence that your view is correct, or that it stands in some demonstrable state of legitimacy. I only noted that your and my approach are opposites and that in stating your view of value there was no refutation of the idea that value pre-exists human minds because it's found woven into reality.

I have argued elsewhere, there is no value - absolute, objective, - that is independent of the human conditions.
This is reflected in the arguments between the Philosophical Realists versus the Philosophical anti-Realists [mine] views.

Note this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
which I do not agree, thus no pre-existed nor existing value independent of the human conditions.

The tendency towards any 'value' independent and pre-exists human beings is a psychological issue which is reducible to survival individually and collectively.
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Anomaly654 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:42 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Anomaly654 wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:I have argued elsewhere, there is no value - absolute, objective, - that is independent of the human conditions.
This is reflected in the arguments between the Philosophical Realists versus the Philosophical anti-Realists [mine] views.

Note this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
which I do not agree, thus no pre-existed nor existing value independent of the human conditions.

The tendency towards any 'value' independent and pre-exists human beings is a psychological issue which is reducible to survival individually and collectively.

Okay, but rather than answer the question I asked you just state your opinion that you don't believe in preexistent value and say you've argued it elsewhere. Is it true or false that the scientific laws were in effect forming the universe from the Big Bang to the first appearance of life on earth? Was it true or false that 4 + 4 = 8 prior to life on earth?

I'm no philosopher but it seems to me that if one answers either true or false to the above questions it suggests that value existed in reality from day one. To suggest that the questions can't be answered because there was no value in reality until minds evolved to endorse it seems to me the intellectual equivalent of covering one's ears and chanting 'nyah, nyah, nyah…" in order to make the questions go away. How would you approach this?
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Silhouette » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:26 pm

Anomaly654 wrote:Is it true or false that the scientific laws were in effect forming the universe from the Big Bang to the first appearance of life on earth? Was it true or false that 4 + 4 = 8 prior to life on earth?

Just to be pedantic, scientific laws break down at "ground zero" of the Big Bang. It's more like they were converged to just after it - so we already have an example of truth, at least in the form of scientific laws, not pre-existing in the universe right there.

More generally speaking, just as dissecting the brain and finding no consciousness, finding no algorithms deep inside a circuit board, or manipulating a flower and finding no intrinsic colour, discovering no coldness at the essence of a snowflake, or drilling to the centre of the earth and finding no centre of gravity, we attribute truth to reality. We don't find truth in it. We discover ways in which to model the world that describe and predict it to a certain degree of accuracy. Calling 4 "4" and 8 "8" is just seeing a shape, making a noise, and saying it and some arrangement of reality are the same. It's then no shock that, given our association, we find our association is correct when 4 + 4 = 8. Circular.

Anomaly654 wrote:I'm no philosopher but it seems to me that if one answers either true or false to the above questions it suggests that value existed in reality from day one. To suggest that the questions can't be answered because there was no value in reality until minds evolved to endorse it seems to me the intellectual equivalent of covering one's ears and chanting 'nyah, nyah, nyah…" in order to make the questions go away. How would you approach this?

Is human vision a perfect representation of what reality "looks like"? The culmination of all our senses seems to enable us to survive for some quantum of time, at least in the way humans happen to understand time. What if there was so much more to reality than we could apparently perceive of it? More than extra dimensions, but entirely revolutionary versions of perception that we could never even possibly conceive? What if we see only the very tip of the iceberg? If we have any access to "truth preexistent in reality" we are complacent beyond belief to think it's anything more than an iota - if at all. In fact, a theory I have landed upon, and take really very seriously is that it's lies and falsity that give meaning to anything - not truth. Truth says nothing, it's tautology. But when we say "that is a tree" and point to a tree, the word tree isn't what we're pointing at, we're not touching anything, you have to understand the gesture of pointing as following a line from the finger to the first general arrangment of presumed common sensation and pattern recognition as the intended subject of conversation... there are so many factors to distort the fact that "it seems like something exists" into something that means anything to anyone. The understanding of truth at all requires this, paradoxically, and it needs a mind for all the sense data to be passed into to even exist as a concept, nevermind relate to anything at all in the first place.
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Anomaly654 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:36 pm

Silhouette wrote:Just to be pedantic, scientific laws break down at "ground zero" of the Big Bang. It's more like they were converged to just after it - so we already have an example of truth, at least in the form of scientific laws, not pre-existing in the universe right there.

Another way of interpreting the data at ground zero is showing truth at work as the primary underlying force initiating the sort of composition from hot, dense unformed information into (in the case of empirical reality) the formation of matter and its governing laws. Rather than a chaotic, uncontrolled expansion, it seems reasonable to suppose that the information enclosed in the singularity would, in a reality in which truth is the underlying dynamic and primary organizing principle, proceed to an orderly convergence of patterning in a way that suggests design, as opposed to spiraling off into chaos.

More generally speaking, just as dissecting the brain and finding no consciousness, finding no algorithms deep inside a circuit board, or manipulating a flower and finding no intrinsic colour, discovering no coldness at the essence of a snowflake, or drilling to the centre of the earth and finding no centre of gravity, we attribute truth to reality. We don't find truth in it. We discover ways in which to model the world that describe and predict it to a certain degree of accuracy. Calling 4 "4" and 8 "8" is just seeing a shape, making a noise, and saying it and some arrangement of reality are the same. It's then no shock that, given our association, we find our association is correct when 4 + 4 = 8. Circular.

Again, that’s just one interpretation of facts. Seems reasonable enough except the explanations lack an organizational standard. We can say the non-contact forces order matter, but what orders the non-contact forces and what does matter so-called have that it follows the direction of the forces acting on it in the same, specific patterns of operation ad infinitum?

A reason consciousness is not in the brain could be because the brain isn’t consciousness, isn’t the person. Lack of algorithms in circuitry itself ignores that those algorithms still play a fundamental role in directing the operation of various currents through the circuits in predesigned ways, and so on. How would you prove that the discovery of facts to model the world and make true predictions of it are not due to the compelling direction of a non-empirical force operating as a power to create the property of correspondence which directs and completes the discovery function? The rest of your inquiry into the mind’s computational operations with reality can be demonstrated by the same active principle truth imposes on the proper and sufficient operation of each example. If truth is the dynamic quality governing the proper operation of existents, it seems that saying in effect ‘this is just the way things operate’ would be circular.

At the end of the day I acknowledge the view of truth I hold is speculative. This has to be so of any non-empirical reality. But speculation prevails on all fronts. Do you have any basis other than the usual lack of empirical evidence to demonstrate that the view of truth I’m defending is false? Lack of empirical confirmation is evidence that I think grows weaker as logical evidence for a non-empirical proposition becomes stronger.

What if there was so much more to reality than we could apparently perceive of it? More than extra dimensions, but entirely revolutionary versions of perception that we could never even possibly conceive? What if we see only the very tip of the iceberg? If we have any access to "truth preexistent in reality" we are complacent beyond belief to think it's anything more than an iota - if at all. In fact, a theory I have landed upon, and take really very seriously is that it's lies and falsity that give meaning to anything - not truth. Truth says nothing, it's tautology. But when we say "that is a tree" and point to a tree, the word tree isn't what we're pointing at, we're not touching anything, you have to understand the gesture of pointing as following a line from the finger to the first general arrangment of presumed common sensation and pattern recognition as the intended subject of conversation... there are so many factors to distort the fact that "it seems like something exists" into something that means anything to anyone. The understanding of truth at all requires this, paradoxically, and it needs a mind for all the sense data to be passed into to even exist as a concept, nevermind relate to anything at all in the first place.

This is an interesting take on things. Agree readily with your implication that there’s possibly way more than meets the eye in the grand scheme of things, but will have to think though your idea that “it’s lies and falsity that give meaning to anything”. I agree too that truth in the way I understand and present it here says nothing. More accurately, it “does” something: it sets the stage for the conscious information of minds to do the thinking and saying in proper order and function with the informational content they work with.
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:36 am

Anomaly654 wrote:Okay, but rather than answer the question I asked you just state your opinion that you don't believe in preexistent value and say you've argued it elsewhere. Is it true or false that the scientific laws were in effect forming the universe from the Big Bang to the first appearance of life on earth? Was it true or false that 4 + 4 = 8 prior to life on earth?

I agree with Silhouette's response to your points.

Re 'I have argued elsewhere' refer a complex web of arguments which is too tedious to repeat here. I believe we may have gone through this long long ago in this forum??

Note according to Popper, scientific theories are at best polished conjectures intersubjectively agreed by a group of scientists. Therefore there were no scientific laws before humans appeared on Earth.

4 + 4 = 8 is a priori, i.e. not a posteriori.
In this case, it is true before you or most people were born, but there no such truth without any humans [past and evolved] involved.

I'm no philosopher but it seems to me that if one answers either true or false to the above questions it suggests that value existed in reality from day one. To suggest that the questions can't be answered because there was no value in reality until minds evolved to endorse it seems to me the intellectual equivalent of covering one's ears and chanting 'nyah, nyah, nyah…" in order to make the questions go away. How would you approach this?

I agree with what you stated about reality so far, but that is limited to the common sense, conventional or scientific perspective which are limited.
To do philosophy-proper one has to go beyond the above perspectives to higher philosophical perspectives.

Note I regularly quoted Russell's;

Bertrand Russell wrote:Among these surprising possibilities, doubt suggests that perhaps there is no table at all.

Such questions are bewildering, and it is difficult to know that even the strangest hypotheses may not be true.
Thus our familiar table, which has roused but the slightest thoughts in us hitherto, has become a problem full of surprising possibilities.
The one thing we know about it is that it is not what it seems. Beyond this modest result, so far, we have the most complete liberty of conjecture. Leibniz tells us it is a community of souls: Berkeley tells us it is an idea in the mind of God; sober science, scarcely less wonderful, tells us it is a vast collection of electric charges in violent motion.


Russell went on to conclude what Philosophy is about, i.e. it has no certainty and final answers but rather a never ending drive of endless questioning;

Bertrand Russell wrote:Philosophy, if it cannot answer so many questions as we could wish, has at least the power of asking questions which increase the interest of the world, and show the strangeness and wonder lying just below the surface even in the commonest things of daily life.

Thus, to sum up our discussion of the value of philosophy;
Philosophy is to be studied, not for the sake of any definite answers to its questions since no definite answers can, as a rule, be known to be true, but rather for the sake of the questions themselves;
because these questions enlarge our conception of what is possible, enrich our intellectual imagination and diminish the dogmatic assurance which closes the mind against speculation;
but above all because, through the greatness of the universe which philosophy contemplates, the mind also is rendered great, and becomes capable of that union with the universe which constitutes its highest good.


Why you want certainty and final answers is due to some subliminal psychological drives which are naturally are triggered by some defense mechanism to reify something out of nothing. Thus I suggest 'Know Thyself' [Socrates] i.e. research and explore what is going on in your brain.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Anomaly654 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:25 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Anomaly654 wrote:Okay, but rather than answer the question I asked you just state your opinion that you don't believe in preexistent value and say you've argued it elsewhere. Is it true or false that the scientific laws were in effect forming the universe from the Big Bang to the first appearance of life on earth? Was it true or false that 4 + 4 = 8 prior to life on earth?

according to Popper, scientific theories are at best polished conjectures intersubjectively agreed by a group of scientists. Therefore there were no scientific laws before humans appeared on Earth.

4 + 4 = 8 is a priori, i.e. not a posteriori.
In this case, it is true before you or most people were born, but there no such truth without any humans [past and evolved] involved.

Okay, couple questions.
1) Let's assume for the sake of argument that there exists in some galaxy in the universe an as yet undiscovered solar system consisting of a sun, four planets and two moons. According to the above, is the position you take that there is no such system with that number of bodies until it's discovered by at least one perceiving mind?
2) Some claim they believe it to be true that those laws developed at the beginning of the formation of the universe. If there were no scientific laws before humans appeared on earth, how did the universe form? What could have been the mechanism if scientific laws didn't exist? I read some time ago that we haven't yet discovered a lot of the universe because light hasn’t had time to reach us yet since its beginning. This seems to presuppose the preexistent truth of scientific laws doesn't it?

Are you an idealist?
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Re: Refute this idea of truth please

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:40 am

Anomaly654 wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
Anomaly654 wrote:Okay, but rather than answer the question I asked you just state your opinion that you don't believe in preexistent value and say you've argued it elsewhere. Is it true or false that the scientific laws were in effect forming the universe from the Big Bang to the first appearance of life on earth? Was it true or false that 4 + 4 = 8 prior to life on earth?

according to Popper, scientific theories are at best polished conjectures intersubjectively agreed by a group of scientists. Therefore there were no scientific laws before humans appeared on Earth.

4 + 4 = 8 is a priori, i.e. not a posteriori.
In this case, it is true before you or most people were born, but there no such truth without any humans [past and evolved] involved.

Okay, couple questions.
1) Let's assume for the sake of argument that there exists in some galaxy in the universe an as yet undiscovered solar system consisting of a sun, four planets and two moons.
According to the above, is the position you take that there is no such system with that number of bodies until it's discovered by at least one perceiving mind?

2) Some claim they believe it to be true that those laws developed at the beginning of the formation of the ]universe. If there were no scientific laws before humans appeared on earth, how did the universe form? What could have been the mechanism if scientific laws didn't exist? I read some time ago that we haven't yet discovered a lot of the universe because light hasn’t had time to reach us yet since its beginning. This seems to presuppose the preexistent truth of scientific laws doesn't it?

Note the points;

1. Empirically and rationally possible
2. Empirically and rationally impossible


If you note the question you raised in 1 above, all bolded items are related to empirically-related variables which has proven to exist as far as observed and verified.
Thus it is possible for such an empirically-possible world to exist say 100 light years away from Earth.
To confirm whether such a place exists, it is the question of bringing in the empirical evidence.

If you insist God is that bearded man in the sky, I can agree that is a possibility, but to confirm, bring the empirical evidence [bolded are empirical] for verification.

However the ultimate God that is claimed by the Abrahamic is non-empirical nor rational, thus impossible to be verified as real.
See my argument; viewtopic.php?f=5&t=193474

Are you an idealist?

Nah, not an absolute idealist.

If in this perspective, I am an Empirical Realist, i.e. there exists an external and independent reality [empirical rational] from my own self, but all these are subjected to the human conditions. In this case I am also a transcendental idealist.

You are more of an idealist if you think you are not one.
From what you have posted you are an empirical idealist and at the same time a transcendental realist.
From this perspective you THINK there is an external reality independent of your self [transcendental realist] but what is really real to you is only in your mind [i.e. empirical idealist].
Example you perceive and think [based on mind] there is a real table you can see but ultimately that is only in your mind via perception and as Russell stated, perhaps there is no real table at all.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am


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