I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours?

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:46 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Thanks all.

Seems that many no longer strive to be the fittest.

Not too surprising given the likely age group.

Regards
DL

Thanks for that.

I assume this was aimed at me, if it was it was just. Not true, but very just in response to my post here and my general behaviour yesterday.

February 4th always makes a kind of weak mush of me. On this day my best friend decided to kill himself in my garden a few feet from my bed and caused my whole family to be completely ruined, fall apart.
The day is always a pure nightmare. And I grow weak. Because all weakness in the world becomes manifest. I stay in a family place and... try to ....help. But... it never works. Nothing ever works on that day.

Of course I am my own judge and guide. It is I who value my Gods. For reasons that rest in me.

And of course humans are superior in power to other animals. Its their superior power which makes it so hard to be ethical for them.

Not me, though - I am deeply ethical and Im master of my domain, which is philosophy. No one has come close to my power here. And no one ever will. I am the center of time.


It was indeed aimed at you and thanks for your thumbs up.

I think that you may not be seeing the forest for the trees though in thinking that most of us do not act in an ethical way.

These two links may give you a different view, given that stats show just how ethical we all are, to a point where evolutionary scientists are hard pressed to explain why we are so nice.

The first is short. The second longer, but the stats I spoke of are given in the last few minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLulcfyqrc0

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby iambiguous » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:38 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
It indeed does apply to Gnostic Christians, in, to me, the best way.

We accept and apply/embrace whatever it is, but as perpetual seekers of better ways, we mentally raise our bar of excellence and seek any.


From my frame of mind, we discuss these things in different ways. And for different reasons.

Any number of folks on one or another religious, spiritual or enlightened path [and their secular equivalents] could note much the same thing. Speaking of "better ways" of doing things and "raising the bar of excellence" in pursuit of them.

But what things? In what set of circumstances. The part where these idealistic "general descriptions" come into conflict out in the world.

Greatest I am wrote:That way we always keep an open mind and do not end in the idol worship of any idea or character like god. We, unlike the mainstream, are this free to reject their rather vile genocidal god.

Regards
DL


Okay, but for all practical purposes what does it mean to keep an open mind when push comes to shove and, in any particular human community, it is necessary to reward or punish particular behaviors given particular contexts.

Here religious folks will either take their God or they won't. Same with the non-religious folks who are still able to make that distinction between good and evil, right and wrong, moral and immoral behavior.

And I'm only here because I am no longer able to do this myself. So, I explain why and note the reactions.
Objectivists: Like shooting fish in a barrel!

He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:09 pm

Greatest, I was regressing, and again thats for the prod.
Dawkins makes valid points of course. It is evolutionarily pretty logical that we aren't complete brutes, as brutes tend to draw ill will to them.
We are a mix of herd and predator animals.

More specifically though, more deeply, we are, as all nature is, nothing more or less than a process of value-giving. Meaning, we are always in the process of designing ourselves as value systems, and ethics is the layer of consciousness in which we recognize this being.

The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby iambiguous » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:26 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:


I rest my case.
Objectivists: Like shooting fish in a barrel!

He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:49 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
It indeed does apply to Gnostic Christians, in, to me, the best way.

We accept and apply/embrace whatever it is, but as perpetual seekers of better ways, we mentally raise our bar of excellence and seek any.


From my frame of mind, we discuss these things in different ways. And for different reasons.

Any number of folks on one or another religious, spiritual or enlightened path [and their secular equivalents] could note much the same thing. Speaking of "better ways" of doing things and "raising the bar of excellence" in pursuit of them.

But what things? In what set of circumstances. The part where these idealistic "general descriptions" come into conflict out in the world.

Greatest I am wrote:That way we always keep an open mind and do not end in the idol worship of any idea or character like god. We, unlike the mainstream, are this free to reject their rather vile genocidal god.

Regards
DL


Okay, but for all practical purposes what does it mean to keep an open mind when push comes to shove and, in any particular human community, it is necessary to reward or punish particular behaviors given particular contexts.


It means to honestly evaluate all the laws and rules you and your society have in place.

We are all collectively responsible for them and it is our duty to help them evolve to their best form.
That means either strengthening the good ones or trying to dismantle the poor ones.

Here religious folks will either take their God or they won't.


Mostly won't as most of theistic penalties are mostly immoral or illegal in the better secular laws.


Same with the non-religious folks who are still able to make that distinction between good and evil, right and wrong, moral and immoral behavior.

And I'm only here because I am no longer able to do this myself. So, I explain why and note the reactions.


The non-religious seem quite good at devising, better than theistic laws, as most of the moral tenets they follow are showing to be making more peaceful and law abiding people in countries where there is less religion.

Don't go by reactions in this kind of place as too many are a holes with nothing better to do than bully.

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:54 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Greatest, I was regressing, and again thats for the prod.
Dawkins makes valid points of course. It is evolutionarily pretty logical that we aren't complete brutes, as brutes tend to draw ill will to them.
We are a mix of herd and predator animals.

More specifically though, more deeply, we are, as all nature is, nothing more or less than a process of value-giving. Meaning, we are always in the process of designing ourselves as value systems, and ethics is the layer of consciousness in which we recognize this being.



I can agree with this even without watching that vid.

I will have a look though and reply if I have anything negative on it.

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:56 pm

Glad to hear it!

Note;


Three of the most violent countries have been the most decisively atheistic ones; nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and China.

Only Spain has been more violent, in its destruction of the South American peoples.

I would argue that we can not conclude much about a country's or persons ethics by whether they are religious or not. I think that what guarantees violence is a starkly top-down system, religious, or not.

We see the same in smaller human societies such as families; pyramids of abuse. The top dog abuses the one below him or her, s/he abuses the one below, and so forth. There often is a deliberate architecture in this, driven by compulsions of instinct but designed with shrewd cunning.
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:39 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Glad to hear it!

Note;


Three of the most violent countries have been the most decisively atheistic ones; nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and China.

Only Spain has been more violent, in its destruction of the South American peoples.

I would argue that we can not conclude much about a country's or persons ethics by whether they are religious or not. I think that what guarantees violence is a starkly top-down system, religious, or not.

We see the same in smaller human societies such as families; pyramids of abuse. The top dog abuses the one below him or her, s/he abuses the one below, and so forth. There often is a deliberate architecture in this, driven by compulsions of instinct but designed with shrewd cunning.


Germany was mostly a Christian nation and Hitler used the Vatican bank to do some of his dirty deeds and also used priests, Jesuits if I recall, to help rid the Eastern countries of Jews in some of the concentration camps. The S.S. and soldiers also wore belts with, In God We Trust on them.

China. I can't remember when Moe cracked down on Confucianism but it has never died. Right now they are allowing some Christianity, but are, intelligently, cracking down on Islam.

The U.S is touting itself as the most Christian country yet has the world record for jailing it's people and abortion.

I will continue to try to kill Christianity and Islam. They are both garbage religions.

One would expect nothing less given that they have a genocidal god that they call good.

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Tab » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:17 am

Regarding religions, you really have to just throw out the fluff and see them for what they are. Psycho-social programs with specific purposes.

Confucianism is a program for social stability. Inward facing. Christianity and Islam are battle programs meant to coercively unify the in-group, demonize the out-group, reduce fear of death, and to justify and legitimize pre-emptive strikes. Outward-facing. They co-evolve with already violence-prone animal-herder societies living under conditions of general hardship and perpetual conflict.

Comparisons between the two are largely aesthetic in my eyes at least, like saying pink hammers are better than blue hammers, when the real questions are a) how well do they drive nails, and b) do we really need a hammer at all right now..?

And it's not that gods and religions are genocidal per-se, but that logically, wars between ethnicities are always genocidal when taken to their natural end-points.
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:00 pm

Tab wrote:Regarding religions, you really have to just throw out the fluff and see them for what they are. Psycho-social programs with specific purposes.

Confucianism is a program for social stability. Inward facing. Christianity and Islam are battle programs meant to coercively unify the in-group, demonize the out-group, reduce fear of death, and to justify and legitimize pre-emptive strikes. Outward-facing. They co-evolve with already violence-prone animal-herder societies living under conditions of general hardship and perpetual conflict.

Comparisons between the two are largely aesthetic in my eyes at least, like saying pink hammers are better than blue hammers, when the real questions are a) how well do they drive nails, and b) do we really need a hammer at all right now..?

And it's not that gods and religions are genocidal per-se, but that logically, wars between ethnicities are always genocidal when taken to their natural end-points.


Well put.

The religions had some value in the past, but these days, with secularism being the direction we are going in, their usefulness as tribes is no longer required and the intelligent will see that they are in fact slowing down our social moral progress.

Homophobia ands misogyny being the worst offences.

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:55 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Glad to hear it!

Note;


Three of the most violent countries have been the most decisively atheistic ones; nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and China.

Only Spain has been more violent, in its destruction of the South American peoples.

I would argue that we can not conclude much about a country's or persons ethics by whether they are religious or not. I think that what guarantees violence is a starkly top-down system, religious, or not.

We see the same in smaller human societies such as families; pyramids of abuse. The top dog abuses the one below him or her, s/he abuses the one below, and so forth. There often is a deliberate architecture in this, driven by compulsions of instinct but designed with shrewd cunning.


Germany was mostly a Christian nation and Hitler used the Vatican bank to do some of his dirty deeds and also used priests, Jesuits if I recall, to help rid the Eastern countries of Jews in some of the concentration camps. The S.S. and soldiers also wore belts with, In God We Trust on them.

China. I can't remember when Moe cracked down on Confucianism but it has never died. Right now they are allowing some Christianity, but are, intelligently, cracking down on Islam.

The U.S is touting itself as the most Christian country yet has the world record for jailing it's people and abortion.

I will continue to try to kill Christianity and Islam. They are both garbage religions.

One would expect nothing less given that they have a genocidal god that they call good.

Regards
DL

I think there is an order of rank when it comes to religions. Man will permit man to get on his knees as he pleases. But those who force others to get on their knees - well... I better not speak my thoughts.

At the peak of the pyramid of human consciousness, humans are free to their own soul.
Most humans have no knowledge of their soul. And so they have no choice but to obey to a particular Chesedic sphere. It makes zero difference if there is a God-notion involved.

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:07 am

I think the process of value giving may be exclusive to humans because value is a concept and only we can think in such abstract terms at a profound level
I think it is not us always designing ourselves as value systems but finding the one that works for us and then morally improving from it as much as possible
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:03 pm

To love is to give value to, no?

And to have taste for a food is to value the food.

And we breathe because oxygen is an indispensable value to us.

Much before conceptual consciousness was reached, nature was valuing.
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:12 pm

To value something is to consider it worthy but that does not include anything which is essential
For value is only given to that which pleases one but which is not actually necessary for survival

For example philosophy may be valuable to you but you can live without it whereas without water you will die
Therefore what is essential is for the body and what is valuable is for the mind and these two do not coincide
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:26 pm

And nature destroys everything it creates as all life eventually dies so it does not really value
The notion of value is one imposed upon it by humans from their own subjective perspective

Nature is not just life but death as well and everything else in between those two points on the spectrum of existence
It is neither moral or immoral / good or bad as those are human concepts / classifications that it has no need for at all

Nature just exists and nothing else - it is simply that what is - no more no less
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:41 pm

Also contrary to what you say in the video everything does actually interact with everything else
There are no gaps in reality because all is one - only from human interpretation can it be divided
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:44 pm


Also value ontology cannot be the answer to philosophy because philosophy cannot provide answers only ask questions
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby felix dakat » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:26 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:Also contrary to what you say in the video everything does actually interact with everything else
There are no gaps in reality because all is one - only from human interpretation can it be divided


If there are no gaps in reality because all is one then to love another is to love yourself because you and the other are one in reality.

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:25 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Glad to hear it!

Note;


Three of the most violent countries have been the most decisively atheistic ones; nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and China.

Only Spain has been more violent, in its destruction of the South American peoples.

I would argue that we can not conclude much about a country's or persons ethics by whether they are religious or not. I think that what guarantees violence is a starkly top-down system, religious, or not.

We see the same in smaller human societies such as families; pyramids of abuse. The top dog abuses the one below him or her, s/he abuses the one below, and so forth. There often is a deliberate architecture in this, driven by compulsions of instinct but designed with shrewd cunning.


Germany was mostly a Christian nation and Hitler used the Vatican bank to do some of his dirty deeds and also used priests, Jesuits if I recall, to help rid the Eastern countries of Jews in some of the concentration camps. The S.S. and soldiers also wore belts with, In God We Trust on them.

China. I can't remember when Moe cracked down on Confucianism but it has never died. Right now they are allowing some Christianity, but are, intelligently, cracking down on Islam.

The U.S is touting itself as the most Christian country yet has the world record for jailing it's people and abortion.

I will continue to try to kill Christianity and Islam. They are both garbage religions.

One would expect nothing less given that they have a genocidal god that they call good.

Regards
DL

I think there is an order of rank when it comes to religions. Man will permit man to get on his knees as he pleases. But those who force others to get on their knees - well... I better not speak my thoughts.

At the peak of the pyramid of human consciousness, humans are free to their own soul.
Most humans have no knowledge of their soul. And so they have no choice but to obey to a particular Chesedic sphere. It makes zero difference if there is a God-notion involved.


Your first brings two words to mind.
Inquisitions and Jihads, promoted by the mainstream religions who scream blue murder if anyone gets near their freedom of religion.

They now use lower and less lethal inquisitions and jihads against women and gays and their freedom of thought.

Two faced bastards all.

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:30 am

surreptitious75 wrote:I think the process of value giving may be exclusive to humans because value is a concept and only we can think in such abstract terms at a profound level
I think it is not us always designing ourselves as value systems but finding the one that works for us and then morally improving from it as much as possible


I disagree.

Animal experiments show that chimps, for instance, will cooperate nicely when they are both rewarded the same way but will stop when one is better rewarded than the other.

There are other experiments that show human children as great mimics, just like chimps, but that the chimp will take unnecessary steps in an experiment while the child does not.

In a sense, chimps are better innovators than humans.

Lower animals are smarter than we think.

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:34 am

felix dakat wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:Also contrary to what you say in the video everything does actually interact with everything else
There are no gaps in reality because all is one - only from human interpretation can it be divided


If there are no gaps in reality because all is one then to love another is to love yourself because you and the other are one in reality.


I like your wife's --------- more than my wife's. :oops: :oops: :D

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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:45 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
Also value ontology cannot be the answer to philosophy because philosophy cannot provide answers only ask questions

What you mean is Socratic method. It's a small part of the history of philosophy.
Thales, the first known philosopher, provided answers, as does Nietzsche, and there are thousands in between. So, I must say you are wrong in your assertion here.

However, philosophy's answering questions does rely on asking the right questions, knowing how to ask questions. Which is how I arrived at VO; I asked a question into the nature of the assertions made any Nietzsche.

However for this to be possible, some understanding, and some wisdom must be held.

Value Ontology is only of those philosophies that explain things very thoroughly in such a way that will always help out in answering questions -- in part because it allows to ask questions in intelligent ways.
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:11 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
Also value ontology cannot be the answer to philosophy because philosophy cannot provide answers only ask questions
If that were true how would you know? Cause that sure looks like an answer.

Further philosophy can answer all sorts of questions and has. A giant set of answers come around the implications of certain axioms. It can also help find out why something that seemed true turned out not to be the case. It can answer what assumptions were made or are being made that may or may not be true. Physics has been helped in understanding and even conceiving for testing a variety of things, some quite important.

Philosophy can help one decide what one's own answers are in ethics or other values, given certain things one holds true.

Philosophy has helped people understand how the way people conceive of things - take for example language - can distort understanding of things like language. This includes all sorts of answers.
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:57 am

I should have said philosophy cannot provide objective answers since this was what I was referring to
One might find some truth within philosophy but that is a subjective truth only true to the individual
But truth which is by definition absolute is another matter entirely and one that I think is unattainable
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Re: I am my highest authority, judge and guide. Who is yours

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:22 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:I should have said philosophy cannot provide objective answers since this was what I was referring to
One might find some truth within philosophy but that is a subjective truth only true to the individual
But truth which is by definition absolute is another matter entirely and one that I think is unattainable
Well, many philosophers and scientists think that absolute truth is not attainable or we can't know if we have attained it. But that's different from objective truth. As I said there are many objective truths that philosophy can arrive at. And if you somehow demostrate that absolute truth cannot be obtained by philosophy or objective truth cannot be obtained by philosophy, then you just contradicted what you said. Since these would be objective truths.

And then the things I mentioned in the previous post...
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