I don’t want to get into another never ending argument about this again but I’m curious as to why so many americans can’t see what I, and millions of others see as blindingly obvious.
Fact: There’s something like 36 U.S. miliary bases in the middle east/north asia region (the exact number is confidential because many are secret)
Fact: There are no muslim/arab military bases on American soil
[b]Question 1: Who would a fair and objective person say was the aggressor? Who would this person say was the victim? Who would this person say was the real threat?
Question 2: If this situation was reversed and there were 36 muslim arab military bases in and around the U.S., and no U.S. bases in the arab world, how would you feel if you kept hearing the arabs saying the americans are a threat to us? Would you accept their rule or would you fight back?
Question 3: Does freedom mean you have the right to choose your own political/social system? Does freedom mean you have the right to refuse a western style corporate-run democracy? Does freedom also mean the abilty to be Free from western lifestyles and culture?[/b]
Please be honest. If you simply believe all is fair in love, war and politics, and the U.S. happens to be the power of the day, then simply state that. I want to gauge whether people believe its an all-you-can-eat-world or if americans genuinely believe imposing an american style, corporate democracy on others is real liberation.
Followup: There U.S. military bases practically everywhere…
Counterfact: There should be embassies, which house military officials from muslim/arab nations.
Followup: There are probably no military bases from any other countries at all inside our continental borders.
My Answers…
Question 1: America, because we’ve been bombing the hell out of them for years. The innocent families we bombed who then sought revenge by joining up with the terrorists. Everyone is a threat, us, them, need I say it, “they” - anotherwords, anyone not thinking before they act is a threat.
Question 2: If they had bases here - and lots of them - and said that they still felt we were a threat, I’d feel my independence was threatened. Depending on the situation I would resort to one of three means -
a. Speaking publicly to Muslims to prove we are not a threat to them.
b. Organize a terrorist cell and start blowing up military installations that have no one inside. Disabling their abilities is safer than killing them.
c. Move to Canada or Mexico…probably Mexico…
Question 3: As James Hetfield said, “freedom of choice, with their exception.” American freedom allows us to have our own political/social structure as long as it cooperates with the U.S. Government system - that being of a capatalistic democracy - if we can call it that anymore… The problem with corporate run western-styled democracy is that when it moves in, it leaves no other choices to choose from. You either work with this new way, or move away and look elsewhere…it’s very “invading.” Californiacation is an inevitability. In short, freedom means shit these days.
Aggressor = the individual/individuals who intended to plant those military bases in the middle east.
Victim 1= all of Middle East/North Asia Region. For the reason that foreign military bases are being planted by individual/individuals (who wont even consider having these very countries plant their own military bases in the US).
Victim 2= There are Americans who don’t agree with such political decisions, but foreigners attacked even those individuals when they indicated that Americans are wrong or whatever. That too was not fair.
Aside: What was initially a political war, the media has turned into a war between citizens of two nations.
Resort to same actions that Sagesound had mentioned.
Yes to all questions.
Some individuals argue that they like their freedom and independence, and they are quick to say “If you don’t like our system, then go back to your ownâ€. Are you sending them back to a system that is being converted to your own? Are you leaving them with any place to live? Are you being fair?
Remember, much of the Middle-Eastern world purchases arms from the USA (i.e. Egypt & others) and from Russia. They are simply not as technologically as advanced regarding arms. Also, remember Mohammed conducted a religious crusade and set-up an army posts throughout the Middle-East on land he conquered. We kept the bases for protection.
Considering how most of the Middle-Eastern countries are agressive against each other, they will nail us at the first opportunity.
Then we have the fact, that after trying isolationism, and being sucked into two World Wars, we started sticking our noses into othe countries politics.
Hum, after 9/11, what do you think I am going to say. We support Israel, but hell, we also send billions to many other countries, some of them actually allow the antiUS, antiIsraeli rhetoric to occur. Did we actually attack the Middle-East? Not until after 9/11 and Afghanistan had is coming. Saddam was a corrupt dictator who gassed his own people, attacked Iran and Kuwait, and caused a huge environment catastrophe.
Although, in hindsight, you wil probably claim we should never gone after Hitler when we had the chance to take the SOB out, right?
No, not so much the aggressor, but simply protecting our interests and ourselves from future attacks. It is called a realistic view of global reality and trying to survive.
Considering the fact that most of the Middle-East is run by dictators and thugs, with a nonthinking mindset of following only God’s laws and the current tyrant’s laws, Is it really a fair comparison? Remember, we can vote our leaders out every four to six years, depending on the office, and we can force leaders out through recalls, and impeachment trials. This does not occur in most of the Middle-East. Currently, Sharon is in deep doo doo and may not make it too much longer. But Israel is a democracy.
Do we vote our leaders into office? Do they? Do they torture, behead, maim lawbreakers for stealing a loaf of bread? Do they regularly sanction honor killing. Do they allow tribal courts to punish a sister for a brother’s sexual indiscretion? That is, is the sister publically stripped naked, gang raped and marched home naked afterward? Is the raped woman killed not the rapist. Now you think regarding the part of the world you are defending.
If they had half a chance, you bet they would counquer the secular West and force all to submit to Allah, and if not, be executed or be given second class status.
You bet your sweet ass it does. If you do not like they way the West runs its government, you can leave anytime and go anywhere you want. So do not whine, just leave. There is the Socialist Norway, I 've heard it is a nice place to live. Then you can go to the Middle-East if you like. Hum, just be sure to declare you are Muslim for better status.
Oh, please, how much is really fair in this world? Be practical km. How often has any other government play fair with us or other governments? We negotiate. We just have to play nice with others, diplomatically, unlike the Bolton. Jeez, and I thought I was Politically Incorrect.
After WWII, the USA poured millions into rebuilding Germany, Japan and much of Europe. Our currency was based on gold. After pumping up our printing presses to pay to rebuild Europe, in the 1970’s, when Europe was rich with our tourist industry, know what the winner of WWII (sarcasm intended) De Gaulle did. He called in our gold from Fort Knox knowing there was not enough there to cover the dollar currency. Nice guy huh. Hence, we are no longer on the gold standard.
Tell me what is really fair regarding this scenario. We had just finished rebuilding Europe in the late 1960’s. Think about that one. Oh, yes, I have a few more doozies too.
Yes, we are, but we do try an temper our powers much more than say China, Tehran, Libya, etc. That is, we do generally follow most of the laws of the land. When say a president lies, like Nixon or Clinton, we can remove them. Our citizens enjoy more rights than most in the Middle-East. We can dispute, recall, be outraged regarding our governments. This is slowly starting to occur in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, but it is slow and many are jailed.
Corporate America is corrupt and now uses Third World countries’ cheap labor to become rich. China’s minimum wage is 28 cents an hour.
The recent Enron scandal has started a domino effect for many businesses. Hopefully, reform will occur.
The point is, heck we are still a very new country, and we are dynamic, constantly changing and adjusting to meet our needs. We make mistakes, sometimes we eventually fix them some times not.
Heck rule, Oh, shit, I have forgotten the rule number, the one allowing for the indefinate incarceration of potential threats is still legal. The one we used in WWII with the Japanese. We haven’t used it, but we still may.
We make amendments, revoke them, discuss and negotiate. To many in the Middle-East Sharia law is not negotiable.
Cut the ducking and weaving aspacia, I didn’t say “Starting from 9/11…” Why do you continually avoid answering direct questions?
The US had about two dozen bases in the middle east/north asia BEFORE 9/11. You were militarily politically and financially propiing up corrupt dictators and undemocratic monarchs AGAIN. Since 9/11 it has gone up about 50% in the number of bases – but of course those bases are much larger now
When the Left shouted and screamed about proping up Saddam, you lot said “don’t worry”. Now we’re saying it again – YOU ARE CREATING YOUR OWN ENEMIES. Next time will be MUCH WORSE!!
Just like you (the U.S) threw off the shackles of your British government in a bid for YOUR freedom, so too are these people. They want you out!
I have an Egyptian friend (a christian) whose family came to live here in the mid 1990’s because he said the middle east was a powder keg waiting to explode.
Most of the U.S. money (your taxes) goes to directly into the pockets of the corrupt govts and on the continually expanding the oppressive police states. The poor get taken care of by the fanatics – there’s virtually no govt assistance. To work out why the middle east populations take the fanatics side is not rocket science Aspacia.
If you are a real patriot, you would put all your energies on reversing this. If you were a real patriot, you would be fighting to make america a great, respected leader and not a hated, selfish bully.
So start again, This time I’ll use a pre 9/11 date:
If there were TWO DOZEN arab/muslim military bases in and around the U.S. and THEY were proping up your corrupt goverment, would you sit back and accept it or would you fight to change it?
You misread what I was saying. I was saying that some people have a political view that states: in a competitive world; the country with the most power wins. Full stop.
Criminal gangs believe in this, as do corrupt regimes. These people are honest criminals – no bullshit. I can handle criminals because I know they are criminals.
So if you, or others, honestly said: well, we are the biggest and we’ll get whatever we can. I would accept your political views (although I don’t believe that works in the long run) and I would respect your honesty.
My distain and disgust comes from those who preach ‘goodness and light’ while at the same time acting like the criminals they say we have to fight.
BTW: This is a false dilemma fallacy, as there are other options, like leaving the land and push for reform in the new land. This is the route taken by many political asylum refugees. Many US Iraqi communities cheered when we invaded, yes, cheered.
No, I would find probaly fight or move to another land, as many Middle-
Eastern people currently do. That is, for years many Middle-Eastern people have fled to the secular West and pushed for reform of their homeland in the secular west. This often works.
Similar to many other countries, the USA protects its interests. The UN peacekeepers (who are in trouble for human rights violations) are also stationed throughout the world, it is not only the USA.
If you are talking about Iraq, no, as we overthrew their dictator, but should not have allowed to UN to hold us back during the first Gulf war.
Our military bases in the Middle-East are a hold-over from the Cold War and the Soviet invation of Afghanistan. We supported the Afghani people who rebelled against the Soviets. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
km, I am a patriot, and know what our country does, I also know what other countries do. Most countries have corrupt governments, including the secular West. My point is, I believe that the USA, and the secular West are better places to live compared to the rest of the world. Look at Russia, China, Syria, most of the African Continent, South America, Central America.
The recently elected chief of police in Nuevo (sp) Larada, was assasinated six hours after his election by drug gang members. The man had a wife and three children. I have many illegal immigrant students who have stated that Mexico would have been better off if the USA had incorporated it after the Mexican War.
I have Vietnamese refugees who fled Ho’s oppresive communist regime. They claim that the USA knew better than them, they supported Ho, what would occur. We should not have allowed the UN to hold us to the 38th parallel. But many argue this would have triggered an all out war with China.
I hope I have been direct enough km. Just look at the whole picture.
Sometimes humans choose to fight, the Jews would have been better off if they had fought the Nazis, but they actually believed themselves to be patriotic Germany citizens, many had fought in WWI.
km not all is goodness and light, never has been, hopefully we can make this come about. Slowly, reform takes place. Remember, women only recently had the right to vote and control their bodies. I am a woman, and I do note hate men, I do avoid sexist males and females, but do not hate. Only in my lifetime have Blacks and Hispanics gained Civil Rights and equality under the law. Ditto, the Native Americans.
km, heck we can agree to disagree right?