again i never said blame or blameworthy. i havn’t muddied up anything, you’ve been trying to apply the notion of blame into what i’ve said but it’s just not compatible.
Let’s play plinko
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFFgz6fSLvk[/youtube]
Now, do we blame the last rung the plinko chip touches? and the angle it bounced off at? Who is to blame? what is to blame? I say blame is tottally irrelevant, as i am agnostic about it. i never said blame or punish.
again never said punishment.
Let me reiterate my position.
If he intentionally killed someone, he has to be stopped from doing it again, and he has to be taught otherwise.
You said you don’t blame, but you lock up and rehabilitate, and I’ve been making the point that there is no reason to rehabilitate if you don’t blame, when to blame means thinking that it was something or someone that was the cause of something in question. If we don’t think the kid pulled the trigger, i.e., blame him for the murder, then we have no reason to take him away or do anything to him.
locking up is not for punishment, it’s for the personal safety of people. you wouldn’t let the little murderer be free would you? i don’t blame him for his brokenness, but i still try to fix him. what’s so difficult to get about that?
can we forget blame? i already made it absolutely, unambbiguously and inexorably clear that i do not deal in blames. you brought the notion of blame to the table.
I lock him up for my protection, though i know it;s not his fault he’s dangerous.
I try to change him not because i blame him for being i’ll, but because i want to make him better.
Get it now? Blame is your word. It’s a word i don;t use, for reasons defined above.
Locking up is not an act of blame, it’s an act to ensure safety. I might blame the competent parent, but would that mean the kid gets to go free?
Fixing his mind is not an act of blame or punishment, it is supposedly an act of good. I fix him so that he doesn’t have to suffer.
It may not be for punishment, but it is punishment.
The sheer irrationality of it…you don’t blame the kid but you would stick him in a cage. You don’t blame him, but for some reason you believe he’s mentally unstable and likely to do something for which you don’t blame him again.
Reading your post I experienced a new emotion. It was a cross between a sudden intense extreme pessimism and laughter.
let’s put him on a rocket ship to the moon then.
You wouldn;t let that kid go to school would you? would you let him take walks outside alone? hold a knife in your presence?
It might be unpleasant but it’s not a punishment, even if he believes it’s one.
yea i think your emotions have been getting in the way.
i never said cage, i never said tried as an adult, i only said locked up and rehabilitated. You have been selectively reading my arguments and constructing some big bad negative view of me. (so it seems)
Tell me this, are your eyebrows pointed right now?
What i find irrational is your persistance that blame is equivalent to cause. If i trip and knock over somenoes glass of warm milk, sure i was the cause, it was my fault, but would that person blame me? They would if they were irrational. i didn;t trip intentionally and should be punished, though i would clean up the milk gratis.
I don’t hate the kid, i’m afraid of him. Do you hate me for thinking i hate the kid?
Do you blame a retard for being mentally unbalanced? I don;t, just as i don;t blame you for completely misinterpreting everything i have said.
To be clear, “blame” infers some sort of responsibility or punishment.
“cause” refers to a physical relation between events. like a trigger finger being pulled
“rehabilitation” refers to fixing something and does not take into account eventual history and only seeks to make the future better
And at 8 yrs old he will have his record states that he murdered someone and was tried as an adult. Seriously that will screw the kid up.
Yes, the poor kind was probably just playing, let him go to his mother!
I don’t know about other people, but when I was 8, I was not living in compolete obvlivion.
Say it, so I can properly respond.
When I was 8, I was living in complete oblivion. I’m pretty sure everyone around me at that age was as well.
death penalty is in order
seriously
this kid is beyond saving
K, thanks for stopping by.
the death penalty should be administered to him
he knew what he was doing
his moral compass is broken and it can’t be fixed
get rid of him
Feel free to make a case for why you think what you think. Non-rational responses are boring.
To try the kid as an adult would be nothing more than a cruel joke. The kid isn’t oblivious nor is he too far gone.
He needs treatment. Prison is obviously not a proper form of treatment, he might benifit from an asylum of some sort.
Just in brief, because really, this is none of my business…
Someone needs to take responsibility. If the boy won’t be allowed to, and the family failed to settle this themselves…
I will stand up and be responsible. I don’t want to see this boy go to prison, no one should be locked up in a cement box if it can be at all helped, and it can. The boy can stay with me. If he shoots me, then I accept that.
Do you realize how easy it would be for police, or even you or I, to wrench a confession out of an 8 year old that he planned to murder/kill someone? I could make them spill the beans, without violence (physical) in under an hour, a couple TOPS.
That being said its about the evidence, and if its strong enough, 1st degree murder seems sketchy. However, we all know that there are unique special children out there, that at the age of 8 have a very great concept of life/death, and probably the intelligence of an adult and the awareness of one, these freaky little genius kids who turn into murderers, rare as it may be, should probably be charged accordingly.
These people are rare though and its usually unprovable so.
From what I’ve read, Wonderer’s muddiness isn’t in the definition of blame or punishment, but in the identity of the child. It’s impossible to separate the child from what his parents have done to him, from his upbringing, from his genes, from faulty wiring in his brain, from a number of things that we could blame for his act instead of “him”. As in the example of the Plinko machine, we could say that his finger pulled the trigger, not “him”. Or, like in the broken robot example, we could say that his messed up neurons pulled the trigger, not “him”. Because the line between his identity and the rest of the world is so blurred, so difficult to resolve as to be arguably non-existent, Wonderer chooses to dodge that issue entirely and simply state that treatment of the child will prevent further murders. This can be true without blaming something that he’s not even sure is a separate something.
Right?
You must be a member of a creed fucked up beyond my understanding. All 8 year olds I know are functioning sentient beings - most 4 year olds as well, for that matter.
Underestimating the human race to such an extremity that a kid shooting his father is within the moral margin is, in my eyes, a philosophical crime. And that is what the ‘forgiving’ judgments here come down to. I don’t think of this as mercy, but as decadence so severe that it is evil.
Nobody has said that it is moral, nor do the arguments of the forgivers boil down to that. What they’re saying is “This is immoral, but the doer couldn’t know that it was immoral, and our society doesn’t and shouldn’t punish for inability to comprehend the law”.