My hands are shaking so badly I can hardly write this. Aspacia and siatd being nice to each other… (places BIG gold star on calendar)
Nice goin’ guys… =D> =D>
Try???
Oh, Gobbo, I grew-up 3 miles from Norton Air Force Base. I am 15-20 minutes from Nellis. I grew-up with general, colonels, etc. surrounding me. Geez, There were like two families out of 12 that were not military. I am in Nevada, area 51 I think it is called. Haven’t seen anything weird.
Gobbo, if I went to you home and farted you would probably claim my fart contained a poison that would eventually kill you. Who knows, this might happen. What isn’t suspicious to you, and many posters claim I am paranoid.
Yes, the USA is out to murder everyone and bring all people under its Satanic control. The government is out to genicide all minorities. The USA is using WMD’s in Iraq and Afghanistan. The government is, the government is. Geez. I mean women livingpoverty stricken areas with lousy food, no clean water, terrible hygiene have deformed children and the USA is poisoning them. Please.
Gobbo, this bunny is too old and read too many conspiracy theories to believe such hokum.
I remember when everyone though Paul is dead because when I am the Walrus was played backward is sounded like Paul is dead.
Gobbo, you will learn, and yes, I do like ya kid! 
With regards,
aspacia 
Aspacia,
Just because you personally haven’t seen anything you might consider as odd doesn’t mean that it is not going on.
Aspacia, your farts -do- contain a poison that will eventually kill me, you, or anyone else – it’s called ‘methane’. I learned that in a ‘book’
Aspacia, I don’t think that. This is a telling example of your thought process. In response to the information I put forth you responded with a recollection of your childhood (again), a house farting scenario, and the rant above.
Suspend your beliefs about me as a person for a moment -if you can- and then proceed. I’ll advise you of a course of action at the next step in this rehabilitative system.
Gobbo Co. – Hammering away at stagnant belief systems for 21 years.
Look, it’s very simple. Bush wanted to kick some Iraqi butt. However he needed an excuse. His destruction of the Trade Center and blaming it on terrorists gave him that excuse.
Hilarious, and to set the record straight, I was left-leaning liberal for many years. Raised Democrat, and remember I do believe in social services for citizens, and am a union member. I have changed during the years as I saw too many verbally attacking my country and calling for its downfall, I really shifted after 9/11 and view this as a major attack on my country. It was just a few years ago that I changed from Democrat to nonpartisan.
I do not like Bush, Rummy and Cheney, basically reject many conservative arguments, but accept many of them.
As to my opinion of you, that will probably never change. You created this opinion, and after 3 strikes you are out.
I do not mind disagreement, and I do like Gobbo. We agree to disagree. He does not suffer from a superiority complex, seldom insults, if so it is in fun, and he has been correct on occasion. Gobbo, remember I agreed with your oil claim.
You, SMIATD, however, seem to believe to are intellectually superior to most, and have recently improved, but the stain of your previous behavior will remain for a very long time.
Right, fine, I was nice and conciliatory and now for no reason other than that you’ve clearly got confused, you are being bitchy again. Fuck this, you don’t even know who or what you are arguing with.
Tell me, ‘conspiracy theory debunkers’ - how does a paper passport survive a fire that can melt/significantly weaken structural steel? Oh, you can’t. Nor can an an engineer. Nor can an engineer explain the (literally) dozens of eye-witness reports, including by 9/11 hero William Rodriguez, of explosions in the buildings prior to the collapse. They can spin any story they like about the centre of the building being a ‘hollow steel shaft’ (9/11 Commission Report), but they can’t explain how fires can destroy steel framed buildings but not injure the people seen in the hole caused by the plane.
And you are also spinning a story.
You are not an engineer, and quite frankly, I will take their findings over your wild speculations any day.
SIATD wrote
Hi SIATD,
I surely can’t say what actually happened, but I can offer an engineer’s explanation for how a delicate passport could survive the WTC calamity.
The passport in the aircraft might have been blown out of the building very shortly after impact.
Have you ever said “Boo!” into an end of a long tube? The tube echos a “Boo!” back at you. It has to do with transmission line theory and the reactive nature of air compression.
Now think of an aircraft plunging perpendicularly into a tube (the envelope of one of the WTC buildings). The resulting shock-wave of air will propagate forward until it strikes a wall, then it will reflect back in the same direction that it came from. Once the shockwave exits the hole in the building, it leaves a vacuum in the building which sets up yet another shockwave-oscillation. This results in a dying series of inward and outward waves moving at high velocity (faster than a fireball can travel). In this way one of the reflected waves might blow a lightweight passport back out of the building before the fireball had time to reach it.
Once outside it would have fluttered down, away from the ensuing fire. And once outside, resting on a lower ledge or the ground, the building would have toppled over it. Or else, it might have blown some distance away in a cross-current of air.
High velocity air blasts can generate non-intuitive results. Here, for example, is an image of grass straws driven into a tree by a tornado.
Best,
Michael
Propensity? One word is not a propensity. [size=50]desperate, weak[/size]
No, you were insulting for no good reason given the prior conciliatory behaviour. [size=50]Go fuck your mother[/size]
Those fires weren’t fuelled by kerosene. The comparison is useless.
No kerosene. Irrelevant.
No, they won’t.
Vague, abstract, in now way a refutation of the masses of evidence regarding explosions in the WTC. One story about your psyche class has literally nothing to do with 9/11.
Nope, those are the words of the Commission Report.
No hollow steel shaft. They lied.
There are plenty of engineers who’ve questioned the official story. This is the weakest of your weak arguments. Try again, if you’ve got anything better.
This doesn’t explain how exploding kerosene failed to burn paper.
This would only work if the passport weren’t inside a gigantic aluminium tude known as an aircraft. Plane hits, passport would have to travel through the outside of the plane (or it would have to fly through a gap), which given the huge fireball outside the WTC after impact, makes it impossible for the passport to be passing through that space prior to the fireball being there.
Conveniently into the pocket of an FBI agent…
Again, the plane hits the building and goes through the outer wall. The only way the phenomenon you describe could work is with regard to the inner wall surrounding the main support columns, but by this point the inferno had already started.
But assuming that this could happen, no gust of air can explain how people were standing in the crash site after impact in what would have to be 1000 degree heat to have even a weakening effect on the steel.
saitd,
Methinks you would want to consult with an expert of fire characteristics before you go too much further. Michael’s analysis is very accurate, and there is a little peculiar thing called ‘flashover’ where delicate flammables are left untouched in a seeming inferno. Also, fuel soaked items are more likely to survive flame than one would think. The fuels evaporate as they burn and can actually cool an item below flash point. It may sound counter-intuitive, but it is well known in firefighting circles…
How, thanks for the insight tentative and Michael, I had no idea why, but knew this does occur.
=D>
I am enjoying this thread for its speculation, questioning and science. Keep it up guys.
Polemarchus,
Although possible, (the unscorched Passport) don’t you feel like having to resort to these ‘Well… technically this is possible’ scenarios to explain all these different phenomenon starts to get a little excessive? Especially with -ALL- the different explanations needed to require what went down that day?
I mean, when it start time to shaving this accumulating beard with Occam’s Razor?
To me that day is surrounded by such a multitude of half explanations that only half make sense themselves that, should I be ignorant of some other stuff I know, I would still tend to lean towards the response that Bush was behind this whole thing. It’s the only answer which is incredibly ‘easy’, it’s the only one that fits seamlessly.
Obviously this is easy, and perhaps erroneous for me to say myself, as most know where my opinions lie on this matter, but still I ask: Do you, or anyone else have this feeling?
Nonetheless, if you soak paper in kerosene and set it on fire, it’ll burn. Some items can survive, of course. I’ve witnessed it myself, having spilt lighter fluid when trying to fill up my Zippo. The fuel burns quickly, the thing it lands on doesn’t, necessarily. But never paper. And certainly not in fires that could significantly weaken steel.
But fair enough - there’s a slight chance that passports could survive, if a combination of such circumstances occured. But given the footage of the planes exploding on impact, I doubt that anything contained within the plane could get out of the plane prior to it blowing up.
Occam’s razor only applies when the two conclusions are the same, though I admit that a simple thing happening is much more likely than a complex one. However, the conspiracy theory is much more complex and unlikely when you consider the amount of people required to make it work. They would have have no moral qualms with blowing up 5000 or something people, and at the same time be so loyal to their superiors that they wouldn’t spill the beans. Seems like the two traits are somewhat mutually exclusive.
Oh, and I thought passports weren’t made of paper. For security reasons they’re laminated and crap too, aren’t they?
How many people would you need to make it work?
Also, the official story is a conspiracy theory. Saying ‘the conspiracy’ theory is really unclear.
You mean like the military?
You mean like in the military?
Hardly, they both exist in the military.
emperors-clothes.com/images/north-i.htm
One estimate stated that it would only take 1000 pounds of high explosives to bring down each tower. That’s not too many people who’d have to know…
Well, I was thinking the two conclusions to be ‘The Events of 9/11 transpired’. Which premise seems more plausible:
-
Bush Planned it
-
It was a coincidence they were doing air tests; for some reason they had to ‘pull’ building 7; the fact that some alleged hijackers are still alive and well is explainable; Bush’s connections to the bin laden family are irrelevant; ad nauseum…
The military is drafted from average people. They are then brainwashed into killing the enemy, not other americans.
Maybe I should clarify:
They would have have no moral qualms with blowing up 5000 or something Americans, and at the same time be so loyal to their superiors that they wouldn’t spill the beans.
Look at it this way: If this was D&D, 20 or so grunts would have to make a winning will roll over spilling the beans, every single time they think of it. The more there are, the more likely it is one will crack.
Also, OG and Siatd, you’re not Americans, why are you so inclined to push a conspiracy theory? Altruism?