A Bastard Universe

[scythekain]

@Uccisore

There is no logic in either statement, and that’s my point. You’re listing one arbitrary quality of the created (measurability), and stating that the Creator must have it as well. Why? What possible rationality could there be behind the statement “If processes are measurable, the God who made them should be measureable” other than that it sounds profound before it’s analyzed? Is it that an immeasurable God would be incapable of created measurable processes? I can’t see why not.

there is a connection between us and the creator. (if you believe the bible if you don’t how can you call yourself christian?) so if god created us and the world anything between us and the world is immediately verifiable but god the creator isn’t?

think about it this way with the old watchmaker argument. The watchmaker puts his “signature” (be it actually, or the way he made the watch) on his timepiece, and some have said that god’s signature is DNA.
and that we are the crowning point of that signature. Why do we have useless artifacts left over from natural evolution? A watchmaker can cull out design processes that don’t work, before even putting the watch into production. Our bodies through evolution can do the same but the process is much slowers. If an intelligence was behind evolution the process of redundant removal would be much faster. (considering that god is supposed to be more intelligent than us, we can presume this process should take light seconds.)

Are we in a state of sin? No, that’s a method to control you, make you think you are in a state of perpetual wrong. It’s completely deplorable to think that in this day and age there is a large majority teaching their kids that unless they submit to allah, christ, god, they will go to hell for their “sins”. Completely ludicrous.

Does this have anything to do with anything anybody said in this thread up to this point, or did your “I hate religion” neurons just randomly fire again? Don’t you ever get tired of shooting fish in a barrel?

It didn’t have anything to do with what anybody said, it had everything to do with my line of reasoning.

It goes along these lines of reasoning, there are several states and planes of god’s “personalities”

i.e. his traits.

The christians, muslims and jews say that “he wants us to love him” but at the same time “he is perfection” I’ve stated this before that perfection doesn’t “need” anything. Perfection = fulfilled.

The second related attribute is jealousy and hatred. If we don’t love him (despite all the evidence in the world to show us that a god doesn’t exist) he’ll send us to hell. If we love “other” gods, he becomes jealous because we are not loving him. Again jealousy is a contradictorary trait for god to have.

Now you can sit back and say, “God need not have any of those traits, we don’t know for sure what traits god has” You just killed christianity, islam, judaism. All three of those religions REQUIRE god to have those traits. If you don’t believe that then you are a mystic. (or pinnacle of reason, who believes in god because he “feels like it”)

[Future_Man]

The christians, muslims and jews say that “he wants us to love him” but at the same time “he is perfection” I’ve stated this before that perfection doesn’t “need” anything. Perfection = fulfilled.

hey wow organized religions are wrong?

The watchmaker puts his “signature” (be it actually, or the way he made the watch) on his timepiece, and some have said that god’s signature is DNA.

so lets say i write a computer program that simulates a universe that has no time, with real smart sim-humans that actually fully simulate the learning abilities of humans, except for the fact that they dont move and therefore dont learn anything. i sign it “made by Future Man, a creature who exists during the passage of time.”

if your humans dont have time, they never move and they never use their thoughts to interpret something changing, how could they possibly understand the term ‘passage of time’ how could they possibly make any sense of that? they cant.

skythe if i told you i actually found gods signature, on the surface of pluto is says “copyright God 15billion BC” what would your immediate response be? “what created god?” “what was before 15 billion bc?” well also written on pluto is “god exists without the passage of time, only the passage of muckluck-woozawazoo”

if god created time, and he was unable to create the thing that he experiences, why should we be able to understand the thing that he didnt put in our universe? why would my sim-humans understand the passage of time if i didnt put time in their universe?

you should talk about what exactly you lose by believing in mysticism. time spent on rituals? what do you lose by beliving in a religion that has no rituals besides helping your neighbor? superfluous luxuries? good.

[scythekain]

well the question wasn’t directed at you, and the only thing you lose by believing or not believing in mysticism is the false belief in some sort of reincarnation or afterlife.

“copyright God 15billion BC”

so pluto is older than the galaxy? the galaxy is only about 5 billion years old.

That would be pretty impressive. I’ve heard a similiar analogy though that one can’t look under a rock to see “made by god”

So since god didn’t leave an obvious signature like the watchmaker, programmer, etc, he obviously didn’t want himself to be known right?

if your humans dont have time, they never move and they never use their thoughts to interpret something changing, how could they possibly understand the term ‘passage of time’ how could they possibly make any sense of that? they cant.

so where is this place where there is no time? you know I’ve answered this one before too future man. NOTHING in the universe exists in a state where there is no passage of time, stars supernova, solar systems collapse into the black hole, and eventually all matter will be once again condensed into an infintessimely small point. Are we to assume that our “souls” can exist outside of this matter? where do they get their energy from? one of the other things we know is that everything requires an energy conversion process.

so what does god eat? Does he go over to pluto where his signature is and take a shit to get rid of his “spirit” waste? Or do you think that immortal beings like god and like our souls don’t have any energy requirements contrary to how everything else in the universe works.

yes such a simple world god lives in. I can’t wait till it gets more complex and convoluted as science discovers more about the world we live in.

QOTD: (question of the day)

Does god require energy? Is god a proponent of the Atkins diet? or does he think eating meat is bad? If god doesn’t require energy, and he expends energy for creation, how does he replenish that energy?

just some questions about god. and about our own “spirits”.

[Future_Man]

so pluto is older than the galaxy?

yes the protons and electrons existed for the whole time. and it was actually written on one proton, which stayed the same the whole time. of course you cant read the surface of a proton, youll just have to assume that thats what it says.

So since god didn’t leave an obvious signature like the watchmaker, programmer, etc, he obviously didn’t want himself to be known right?

bingo.

if you believe that god wants all people to go to heaven, then he should definetely show up in the sky and be like 'hey guys, your messing it all up. i want you in heaven, and in order for you to get here: special bread." it would be that simple for a respectfully powerful god.

therefore, either gods ultimate goal is not to make us individually happy via eternal heaven, or god does not have much power over his creation.

if you believe that god wants us to do selfless good, as jesus mainly stated, then he should not be showing up in the sky delivering this message. if he did, then that good would cease to be selfless. it would be based on the assumption that god will reward us for doing good, and therefore we should do good to others so that god will reward us. that is selfish. would it lead to a better world? sure of course.

does it look like the creator of this mess wants a better world, or selflessness? if you murdered everybody who wasnt a beautiful college educated german in the top 1% of standard test scores, and you all lived on an equal, self sustaining, self governing commune, would the average happiness of humans be higher? would it feel good murdering billions?

i tend to trust my body and when it gives me fuzzy feelings as opposed to nausea. and i tend to think that there is only one explanation for why god would design the universe this way, and it happens to make perfect sense. definetely nobody suggesting otherwise except for problems with the thrice translated golden rule.

skythe, if the theory of god being put forward doesnt make sense, that doesnt mean god doesnt exist, it means the theory is incorrect. either tell C/M/J’s that they are wrong and should believe otherwise and specify otherwise, criticize a theory that claims to make perfect sense, or give up on the anti-god debate. i really think everybody here agrees that the specifics of CMJs are quite sketchy.

[scythekain]

future man I disproved every possible conjecture of god and you completely failed to answer my QOTD.

[Future_Man]

who knows. i doubt that he requires food in the same way we do, since food is here, and he is not. that doesnt mean he doesnt eat food, but if he did, he would do so without the passage of time as we know it, which i suppose would mean the eating procedure would be incomprehensibly different.

the only thing we can use to reason about god is this universe. we have to assume that god exists without time as we know it (without cause and effect because what caused him), and we have to assume that he either doesnt talk to humans or only talks to some and not others. then if a theory of god fits our evidence, thats god.

if you have a reason why you dont believe hes there, what is it. i feel like believing in him is default, it feels good. whats more comfortable, being the only person on earth, or having a girlfriend? i dont understand if atheists say atheism is default, my body tells me that living forever is good. maybe you have changed your behavior in a way that contradicts this bodily feeling? and you feel your behavior is more logical? why? why atheism?

NOTHING in the universe exists in a state where there is no passage of time

and the universe was either created with an infinite regress of “what caused that? what caused…” and creation of any kind doesnt make sense and will never actually be seen OR god exists outside the universe/time and can create the idea of time. i dont think that we can ever see a thing that exists outside of time.

one of the other things we know is that everything requires an energy conversion process.

yes, everything in the universe. have you seen god in the universe? if god has completely convinced you that his universe prevents his existence, and you become an altruistic humanist, then god damn you will be spewing a large amount selfless meta-goo.

if i clearly see that jesus watches me and tallies up all my good deeds and allocates one virgin per deed, well then there wont be so much selflessness.

god wants selflessness, not a large heaven population. if wanted heaven population hed make it clear what our mission was. if he wants the meta-thing that is created when souls do selfless things, then he needs to make sure we are motivated only by the good gained by others, and not the good that will be bestowed upon us by our loving creator.

yes such a simple world god lives in. I can’t wait till it gets more complex and convoluted as science discovers more about the world we live in.

“why is everything that humans will ever see? why is it all there?” while we are in the process of answering this question, i truly dont think that the ultimate answer can possibly change: “something that is not subject to the law of cause and effect, because what caused it?” could be god, might not. but whats defientely true is that if C+E dont apply to it, lots of stuff might similarly not, and theres certainly no reason to think that anything does.