A bit on Satanic philosophy

Any philosophy must, as a matter of course, at least imply a code of moral ethics for its followers to espouse. Satanism, as a philosophy and as a religion, can do no differently. However, the nature of that moral code will seem entirely alien to those who have been raised on the ages-old idea of a “good versus evil” world view. All of the major world religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, and Buddhism) are rooted in moral absolutism. That is, there is a definite and objective set of behaviors which are “right” and which are “wrong” for an individual to practice. The differences between these religions come to the fore when the exact nature of those behaviors is defined, as well as the latitude afforded the individual in regards to a choice between them.

For example, Christianity is very specific in its list of moral behaviors which it considers right and wrong (exemplified in the Ten Commandments and other Old Testament strictures), and is equally specific regarding the consequences of failing to observe “right” behavior (cast into the lake of eternal fire, etc.). Buddhism, on the other hand, still recognizes a set of behaviors which are right and wrong, but says that the individual is given full freedom of choice… but is expected to choose the correct behaviors. There is no punishment in Buddhism for choosing wrong behaviors, other than being once again incarnated on the Earth.

It is significant to realize that all of the rewards and punishments offered by religion are mythic. Their existences are, by their very nature, impossible to prove. However, they are designed to play upon the gullibilities and fears of the Masses, and in this way something which may not actually exist at all has a definite impact upon the real and observable world (by means of modifying the behaviors of the people of the world).

Satanism, too, offers a list of do’s and don’t’s, codified in several places, including The Satanic Bible. However, Satanism does not presume to cajole its adherents with either vague promises of eternal reward for good behavior or veiled threats of eternal punishment for bad behavior. Rather, the Satanist is encouraged to look upon every action in a unique light, and weigh the consequences of the various possible decisions. In this sense, Satanism offers a very relative (rather than absolute) moral code. To the Satanist, ‘morality’ means doing what is best for yourself.

Note that this is not the wholly self-centered, selfish, and myopic world view that some would like to portray!. By following this code, Satanists are not encouraged to go out and steal, lie, cheat, and murder merely for the slightest material or emotional gain. Rather, the Satanist is encouraged to look at the consequences of his actions in a cold and rational light. He must take into account not only the short-term gains which are possible from a given action, but also the long-term ramifications which follow any decision. The Satanist must be wholly logical in determining his actions; there can be no other factors to be taken into account in making the determination.

This attitude stems from the Satanists’ reverence of intellectual freedom. By following the path of the intellect, rather than blindly obeying the Will of another (or even succumbing to his own emotional dictates), the Satanist forges for himself a path of true morality; doing what is best for himself. No creature can be expected to do anything less than that.

This runs contrary to the current conventional wisdom that self-sacrifice is, in some way, noble in and of itself. True, there are instances where self-sacrifice (either material or psychic) is the most reasonable course to take. But under no circumstances would the Satanist (or any other rational being, for that matter) undertake a self-sacrifice unless the benefits to be gained eventually outweighed the cost of the self-sacrifice. In such instances, the sacrifice can be considered more to be an investment.

This egalitarian attitude, which states that self-sacrifice is a worthwhile action for its own sake, has been incorporated into Western society at every level over the last few decades. It used to be that every individual was responsible for himself; this rugged individualism and self-reliance was the cornerstone upon which people relied. Now, however, the idea has been introduced that somehow each person is owed a living-- food, shelter, and even luxuries-- merely because that person is a citizen. This has been expressed socially in the prevalence of begging in major metropolitan areas.

‘Charity’ used to be the province of the private sector. If an individual wanted to give money to a particular charity (be it a soup kitchen, an individual beggar, or whatever), then that individual could make a conscious, informed decision to do so. Whole organizations were set up to facilitate the transfer of funds derived from these self-sacrificial urges, such as the Salvation Army, and various religious groups.

Today, this idea has been corrupted. Rather than making charity an object of a personal decision, the State has taken it upon itself (especially here in Canada) to oversee the collection and disbursement of money from those who have it to those who do not. Hardly any notice is taken of the individual worth of the people receiving such funds, and certainly far less notice is taken of the desires of the people from whom the money is being taken! In essence, the profits and produce of that section of society which actually contributes to the nation are being stripped from them without so much as a consultation. The beneficiaries of these funds are often those segments of society which are unable or (even worse) unwilling to contribute to the nation’s prosperity. They exist merely for their own sake, and their only function in the web of society seems to be to act as a weight on the more productive segments, dragging them down to the same level. In this way, the egalitarians see the fulfillment of their wildest fantasies; a world in which everyone is entirely equal on every plane; economic, social, intellectual, etc. It does not matter to these would-be do-gooders that the method they have chosen for this work does not raise the humble to the level of the lofty, but rather drags everyone down to the same, lowest common denominator.

What, then, would be the answer to this frightening conspiracy of mediocrity? Before it is too late, the rising tide of egalitarianism must be halted. Once more, humanity must realize a simple truth and come to terms with it; some individuals are simply better than others.

If I take your word for what a Satanist is supposed to be, it would mean that a Satanist should be a Kantian. All logic buddy… But nevertheless, Satanism is just another structure… just another crowd and set of dicates to look to (even if those dicates are “be cold and rational” you cannot escape the fact that it is still a dicate). Still someone else’s philosophy…

I see no problem with that. Some see working from within a framework as constricting. I see it as pragmatic.

Hello F(r)iends,

Dr. S, it appears to me that Satanism is not tremendously different than the other religions. For example, you argue that the major world religions are rooted in “moral absolutism” suggesting perhaps that Satanism is not. However, a quick read of your attitude towards these major religions as well as a read of http://www.churchofsatan.com reveals that there is an absolutist view on these religions: meaning that those religions are absolutely wrong, that your view is absolutely right, and that not following your guidelines is a sure way for all the ‘fools’ to secure their own doom. To paraphrase the use of your words: Satanism is very specific in its list of behaviors which it considers right and wrong and is equally specific regarding the consequences of failing to observe right behavior (self-deceit, chasing pipe-dreams, wasting love, et al). For example, you claim that:

There is certainly some cajoling of its adherents by making vague promises and threats: “Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.” Similarly, the following could be interpreted as cajoling: “We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.”

It appears that there is a presumption here: that one cannot obey the will of another unless you do so blindly. More specifically, even one of the dictates from your religion states: “The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.” I can understand the condemnation of the average man; however, the attitude seems to apply to all. Does every man that chooses to follow the will of god always do so blindly?

It can be argued that Christianity applies much of the same rules: self-sacrifice for long term benefit.

Don’t get me wrong. I am largely a capitalist, any sacrifice should have a return on investment. I don’t believe in charity and I believe in survival of the fittest. But the strange thing is you go on to condemn the actions of men that receive charity despite their merits (or lack thereof). For example:

And you only recently stated that:

Can you really blame them for doing what is best for themselves?

Regards,

-Thirst

Don’t get me wrong - if someone put a gun to my head and said “You have 15 seconds to choose an 'ism to adhere to…” I’d very probably choose Satanism…

If it has a fault though, I think it presumes the intelligence, on the part of the initiate, required to make fairly clear judgements/predictions of consequences of actions, and the self-awareness of emotional causitives prompting those actions. Under this “path of true morality” reliant on intellect alone, “holier than thou” becomes simply “Cleverer than thou”.

Just as Christianity exasperates with its rigid system of do’s and don’t’s - coddling the believer and snubbing their intelligence - Satanism and any other “anti-dogma” that encourages a life lived only under self-generated quasi-moral guidelines - makes the opposite mistake of forgetting that most people can’t see beyond their noses, and basically want everything, right now, on a plate - with an oven-ready rationalé to soothe their aching consciences. Which Satanism with its “don’t feel guilt” and “do what’s best for you” ta-de-dah-de-dah… Provides. Satanism as majority choice would be a nightmare. Though possibly an advertizing dream come true…

As a minority choice though, its fine - a ‘religion’ of the intellectuals, for the intellectuals… But doesn’t it beg the question “Why do these intellectuals need to dress it up if they’re so clever…?” Accepting any ism seems a step back, rather than a step forward, for a thinker.

Anyway - alms for the beggars - you’re right, enforced charity in the form of taxation does grate the teeth sometimes - and it does look like the middle reigning in the top for the benefit of the bottom - but it’s always going to be that way, as the middle is always going to be the largest section of any society. It’s not a bad thing really, there has to be some safety net for the unlucky/unintelligent/unwashed - Otherwise like in Turkey - you get wastrels becoming a strain on an otherwise hardworking family, mafia/street-gang fodder, or women with new-borns sitting in the blazing sun at traffic lights - frightened to go home without enough money to please their mad as fuck husbands…

Get used to it Satanist - and get using it. Privatize begging - get your troupe of lepers in the van and on the road… :evilfun:

Ahh - but that’s the catch - the one’s who really are better, would never say they were… Either out of humbleness, or an aversion to the 21st century equivalent of a torch-wielding mob…

Hi fellas.
Thirst,

Not absolutely right, Satanicly right. There is no right or wrong, but as Satanism has been codified into a measurable position, there is 'what is right ‘Satanicly’ and what is not.

That plays into psychology and more specifically the psychodrama that is ritual magic. Since ritual magic, as far has been proven, exists purely within the mind and psyche of the cellibrant,it is veiwed by the Satanist as important to keep doubt out of the equasion as far as ritual is concerned.
It is purely measure to prevent psychological undermining of ones self.
Again, it isn’t so much a case of ‘this is the right way’, as ‘this is the Satanic way’

Not if you are an autotheist like me :stuck_out_tongue:
But to anyone that believes in an external god, yes.
Unless of course you are actually communicating with such a thing…but if such is the case you by all probability need extensive psychological therapy.

I can if they are not taking responsibility for their own situation and actions. Sraight up selfishness does not equate to Satanism, it is merely a component among many. Responsibility to the responsible is key.

Tab,

Id probably take Skepticism.

Yes, it does. Satanism does not presume to be for everyone, on the contrary it is widely held by Satanists that only a certain breed can ever be Satanists. IE personality type A (the defacto Satanist) and personality type B both read the Satanic bible. Person A agrees with every word, and sees it as a reflection of how he/she already saw the world. Person B thinks its cool, and strives to aply the ideas and concepts to his/her own life, but they don’t feel completely natural.
Person A is a Satanist, person B is not.

Agreed. It was never intended to be. Satanism is elitist.
Besides, the ‘majority’ of the sheep out there can’t see past what their parents/pastor/favorite tv program tells them, which is pretty much the complete oposite of Satanic thought. That it would ever become a major religion is highly improbable.

I consider myself a ‘thinker’. in fact, often times I wish I could just turn my brain off and sit and laugh at some inane episode of ‘freinds’ or ‘king of queens’ (as it is sitcoms make me wretch)
But I can’t.
Personally, as i already mentioned, I don’t see working within a system as at all constricting. It is simply a matter of making a descision, and utilizing a set of tools. A matter of focussing thought on what you deem important, rather than abstractly spreading it everywhere.
Rules and guidelines do in fact serve a purpose :slight_smile:

I have a great disdain for ‘humbleness’.
Regardless, a thinking man would not let his ego become a roadblock to his advancement.

While I agree with your sentiments about religious dogmatic codes, I think you’ve missed the underlying point of why we need Morality… but first…

The greatest tragedy may be the hijacking of morality by religion. However valuable that may have been to enforce good behaviour on primitive peoples, the association is now counter-productive. Yet at the very moment when they should be decoupled, sanctimonious nitwits are calling for a return to morals based on superstition.” – Arthur C. Clarke

Yes again I concur, but the reason we have Morality is so we can all live together without ripping each others heads off. One time, along ago all it took to be moral was not to kill one another. The simple rule of do to others as you would like done to yourself. Nothing wrong with that, just most people are mindless and cannot understand the reason why you should live like that. They’re so selfish they need to be beaten with something repetitively (preferable very hard) till they stop being destructive to society.

Society relies on morality, laws have come from morality; some might even say they have evolved from morality. The respect shown to the Law today (snigger, debatable) could be compared to the reverence show to God by religious folk through morality all those years ago, and still today. The goal of both is to enable an environment where people can come together and live in relative peace. We need each other to survive and have become so interdependent that almost our entire life relies directly on others. The basics: Food, Housing, Economy, Personal Safety. Without morality to fertilise the small religiously minded communities, what we have today could not exist! Should we thank all those ‘stupid’ moral people for creating this cornucopia? Speaking of Greek myths, did you know Zeus was also the god of contracts, oats, and what could be best described as ‘host-guest relationships?’

One of the fundamental goals of religion is control of the masses, but those who created it didn’t always consciously acknowledge this fact. Plus their creation also has a side effect of enabling people to come to terms with things that are devastating or life shattering. But by calling upon god they unlock their own inner strength which otherwise would go unused through lack of self belief, yet belief in this fictional being gives them the key to their hidden resourcefulness. The kingdom of heaven is locked within, as they say.

Society requires Trust! If everybody is stealing or cheating then nothing can get done as people can’t rely on others for help; I believe it was Plato who said, ‘You can judge the morality of a people by the number of their laws.’ Meaning moral people don’t need laws! Laws are enforced by the state to ensure trust and cooperation can flourish, as this is what’s needed for society to move foreword.

Yes, I also agree with Arthur C. Clark, the religious tenure on Morality has expired and it’s time for a more contemporary ideology to take ownership. Some would say currently it’s the State and Laws which guide peoples actions, will this be the ultimate end for this essence of cooperation and trust? Or is it merely a stepping stone to something ‘New Age?’ As your believes would fall under that category.

This is basically taxation, why do we pay our taxes??? Apart from the state kicking our asses into jail? Quite simply put, Taxation given to the Poor is nothing more then a Protection Racket! If you don’t want the poor breaking into your house and taking that nice 42” Plasma Screen HDTV, you need to give them a little to save you a lot. By giving them just enough to stop the revolution you get to live a comparatively affluent live style (the Kings England and other royal families understood this when they introduced their Parliaments, or the English term ‘House of Commons’ for those ordinary Commoners). Alternatively you give them nothing, then with them having nothing to loss they become nothing more then a menace to society and rampage ensues.

When trying to view the world through the limited scope of ‘I’, initially we see all these things that could make our life better. But as we’ve seen from above, we’re so reliant on each other that what will benefit me the most will inadvertently involve helping others in the process. If I want to get rich this is only possible if I involve others in my endeavour (and it also helps if they’re trustworthy, be it law abiding or moral). So to view the world as you wish to is dangerous, as you forgot that the only way you can exist, is if you can keep the masses ‘happy’ (hehe, I mean docile and apathetic) enough to leave you elite folk alone. I find bribery, through paying taxes the most successful. But every now and then you just have to give them your wallet.

I would have to say mass culling! :expressionless: (sarcasm) Look at where we are today compared to 500 years ago. The overwhelming majority of people living today if transported back in time would be considered geniuses by the yokels! So we’re going in the right direction, it’s your elitist outlook that blinds you to this. 500 years time they’ll look back at people like us and think, “LOL, aren’t they all just so stupid!” Or worse we may start to practice overly selfish and ultimately self destructive forms of morality which will lead us all back to being the village idiots out planting our corn amidst the runes of our cities.

S,

I had long believed in the logic and rationale behind what you call satanism. I had no name for it, but I felt almost exactly the same way as you. What cued me in on my mistake though, was the fact that I was literally disgusted by religion and anybody that had any absolute codes and didnt think to consider any alternative. What I realised was that my disgust for these things was analogous to the disgust that absolutists has for anything that did not coincide with their absolutes, such as a Christian disgusted with gays. And it was this disgust that absolutists had that caused alot of my disgust for them…

The point is to observe and learn, not judge. As far as I have observed, there are VERY few “natural” qualitative associations. By natural I mean those which humans are born with. Qualitative associations that can be attributed simply to genetics. For example sex and severe heat. The process of sex, by nature, has a positive qualification associated with it. Severe heat, by nature, has a negative qualification associated with it… This is all very obvious when considered in terms of evolution, and considering the evolutionary use of qualitative associations is very important in garnering information on wheather or not it is natural or man-made. It is certainly not the only one. A homophobe could rationalize a disgust for gays quite easily in terms of evolutionary purpose. I for one do feel slightly uncomfertable in the presence of disabled people. I cannot decide on this particular issue wheather this occurs due to socialization and I have merely been tought to have this association, or if it is natural. It would certainly make sense in evolutionary terms.

Anyways, what you have to realise is that any negative feelings you may have towards religion or absolutists is caused by EXTREMELY similar circumstances that caused the religious absolutists to believe what they do. In hating or even disliking them, you are falling into the same trap that you would belittle them for falling into. You are both in effect, brainwashed. As far as I can tell, there is no natural reason for you to hold these negative feelings towards them. So however those feelings got there, it must have been through association and some circumstances throughout your life. This is what I call man-made, circumstancial qualitative associations. Maybe your father hated religion, (which is the case with me) maybe this or maybe that. But what I do know is that you would be VERY hard pressed to rationalize your negative associations in any non-circumstancial way. You would either have to suggest that humans are naturally (geneticly) drawn to “intelectual freedom” as you call it, or suggest a qualitative absolute along the lines of: “Intelectual freedom is good” The former I do not believe you could support, the latter would be as I said, falling into the same trap. So if its neither of these, than you are drawn towards what you call “Intelectual freedom” for circumstantial reasons. And really, theres no way for you to say that “intelectual freedom” is better than any alternative. You could only say that certain circumstances in your life have caused a positive association with “intelectual freedom” and a negative association with the alternatives. And this is exactly what occurs to to the people you dislike and exactly the reason you dislike them.

The point is that you are ALL brainwashed. Nay, WE are all brainwashed. But it cannot be helped. Cognitive association is a fundamental function of the brain. It is how we learn, it is the process of induction. Every taste you have, every preferance is caused by this. Do you like Rock n Roll? More than Country? I certainly LOVE Guns and Roses and get nothing from Garth Brooks… Why is that? Is there something innately good about Guns and Roses? Ofcourse not. Its a circumstancial qualitative association. For whatever reasons throughout my life, I have come to love em. But I think there is something very important to be learned here! I believe you can come to have some semblence of control over these associations. Once you become aware of them, I think you can change them. Like I said, I used to HATE religion. I still do have a significant distaste for any man that comes out and says that something is absolutely this or that way because its written in the bible. But over time, the negative association has lessened. I am bassicly forcing myself to be tolerant of it! Once you realize that the negative association you hold of them is no diffirent than the associations that you hate them for, you should start to think twice about the feelings you get when you encounter these people.

Now, it could be said that there is indeed a natural, rational reason to have a negative feeling towards them. It can be argued that in consideration of the consequences of people going out and preaching a religion, that it can be concluded the consequences are naturally negative for you. For example, I could imagine that pre-marital sex becomes illegal because of the urgings of religious figures in power. This would indeed cause me significant, “natural” harm. Its about as natural as having negative feelings towards a man holding a knife and saying hes coming to chop your genitals off. The question is, how natural is your negative association with these people? I would bet money that you are no longer considering the consequences as you suggest we do. I would bet you would have negative feelings towards a religious person, that upon further consideration, you would realize is no more a natural threat that deserves negative feelings than a rock. You should come to realise that you have feelings that are automatic, and are not caused as a result of consideration of the natural consequence to you. Exactly like a racist, a homophobe, a moral absolutist, a Christian.

Now heres the solution: The hippys got it right. Learn to love everything. Become aware of all the negative associations, and try to eleminate them. And try to force as many possitive associations as you can. (Im still trying to learn to love Country) What this does is that every thing you come across in the world will only cause pleasure, since you will have a positive association with everything. Hell, you can even learn to enjoy pain… This is true. This is not the whole answer, but it is the general dirrection of it… If the point is to maximise pleasure, than this is certainly the dirrection we have to go in. Minimize the negative associations, maximize the positive associations. But do this in consideration of the consquences of learning to love something. For instance, consider the consequence of learning to love jumping out of an airplane with no parachute. Realize that this will probably severely limit pleasure output over time.

Note, I am not suggesting persuing pleasure is somehow “Good” and all other persuits are “bad.” This is purely an observational thing. I am a psychological egoist, not an ethical egoist. Through observation, I have come to the conclusion that humans are just pleasure persuing machines… And no one needs to be socialized into learning to love pleasure… Pleasure and pain are the qualitative mechanisms we start with. Though you could be socialized into learning to love pain and learning to hate pleasure… Aint that a funny thing? But explainable by my theory.

No. There is a wonderful thing called justice that is included in the package through the so-called “laicism”. The necessity to respect morality is also enforced by “justice”, and that’s very concreet. However, churches are not supposed to deal with that aspect, except, of course, inside their own institution. But, more fundamentally, and that’s the point of Adam and Eve story, we suffer from our wrong actions, or make other suffer from them : that’s, incidentally, a way to qualify them as wrong : “don’t do to other what you don’t like they do to you”. But th epoint of christianism is much further, it is the positive version : “do to other what you want they do to you” and the famous “love your ennemies”, that our animal instinct is just unable to understand and apply, and that’s precisely, according to Christ, what define our humanity. See Zundel.

That’s, indeed, only a part of the christian idea. Christianism is not first of all a morality… it’s a positive idea : love everybody. That includes yourself, of course. That’s obvious, and that’s rarely the difficult point, although some people can’t accept what they are, for whatever reason, and need a certain healing in order to be able to love themselve.

Several point : why do you associate cold and rational ? I prefer warm and rational. Death is cold, life is warm. Rational is rational, and that’s it.
The necessity of rational reasoning in morality exists fundamentaly in christianism too. Read Thomas Aquinus. And maybe, at the same time, you’ll see that he has proposed the idea that the only real judge of a persone is its own conscience, as nobody can judge nobody. The only thing we canjudge are the facts.

Marc

Marc, I think by cold he means having no emotion. Having no qualitative reaction towards things, only rational analysis. The problem is I think he has borken his own “rule” because I bet he has negative feelings towards absolutists.

Russiantank,

Thanks for your answer. That’s what I think too. Though it’s an unecessary precision and it seems that cold appears as a quality… that’s what I’d like to understand : it’s not really about the relationbetween rational analysis and feelings, but the fact that he insists on the cold part… It’s more a psychological than a philosophycal interrogation, maybe…
However, it’s only partially true : logic alone won’t give you any moral criterion. That one, you decide from “beliefs” outsideof the rational domain. Apparently, for Satanism, “‘morality’ means doing what is best for yourself”. Whereas christianism will propose that morality would be more something like “don’t do to other what you don’t want they do to you”, i.e. you are not alone and you are not the only subject or morality : it necessarly takes into account others. That’s the difference between egoism and charity, satanism and christianism. But it’s no scoop.

Marc

I dont think cold is a quality… By my understanding of his use of the word I would imagine it means the absence of quality.

Interesting debate.

I never liked wannabes, and by this, I refer to your comparison between Person A and B. I also never understood why Satan and God were viewed so differently. Everywhere I see, “God fights Satan”, “Satan fights God”, “God vs Satan”, “good vs evil” as if it was a Mortal Kombat TV serie.

Let’s face it, you never hear about “God fought Buddha” or “Allah vs God”.
Theoretically, from a unity point of view they are one and the same. Symbolistically speaking. So I am curious why can’t the same be for Satan - why must HE be an outcast ? I guess that whole ‘Fallen Angel’ issue influenced this.

Satanism is a religion just like any other. One should not be judged by thier beliefs or religion (or race or sex etc.). Still I see people that tag you as a Satanist (in a wrong way) daily. There was once a news report on a young soldier guy, that killed himself. Obviously nothing spectacular so far. But would the media drop it ? NO! THEY NEED RATINGS. :unamused:

They found out he would be discharged soon as his period was almost over. Oh my God, then why would he do something so horrible ? Asking friends, family, he had no debts, no problems, many friends - heck everyone loved him. So what is the problem ? Indirectly, the media learned he was a M. Manson fan. Anything wrong ? No. I like some of his songs. Not all of course. Still his style is interesting. But what about the media ?

“X killed himself blah blah. His friends mentioned he listens to M. Manson’s SATANIC music”. Putting aside the fact they turned M.M. into a Satanic king (sigh) they made a total innocent guy into a Satanist (and in the wrong way) and ruined his reputation. Some people don’t understand the ‘satanic’ trend behind music I guess or what a Satanist really “is”. Gotta love narrow minded people.

Still not going to go into details - too late now, maybe some other time (I do have uni tomorrow so gotta get up in a few hours), but I think I made my point. Perhaps it wasn’t totally on topic, but it is just a POV of others on this issue with which I disagree.

Ok, I know I am the epitome of shallow, but could you please give me “bullets” of Satanic belief. You know:

  • yadda, yadda

  • yadda, yadda evil yadda

  • yadda, yadda the-devil-made-me-do-it yadda

  • yadda, yadda…

Give me the 10 basic principles which drive it… I am more of a bingo-bongo learner. Even the yellow and black paperback “Satanists for Dummies” is too much iinformation for me to wade through. Give me basic evil-bullets or put me out of my misery and take me to Zenoland to wallow in the land of yadda-yadda-id. :evilfun:

Hi Pax,

Not at all. I don’t think we need ‘morality’ at all. Morality is just the objectification of a set of behaviors that come natural to the human animal. Don’t kill members of the group. Don’t take what is not yours unless it is worth a fight. Treat others with enough respect to avoid getting your head knocked off. Etcetera…
But by objectifying these behaviors into an ‘absolute morality’, and trying to dictate what is morally ‘right’ and what is not, you leave room for corruption.
Why is sex before marriage immoral? Sure, originally it was a good idea not to knock up the neighbors daughter, but marriage itself was hijacked into a religious institution, in effect giving the church control over sex. Just an example.
In short, I think ‘morality’ is just another religious attempt to hijack a set of natural human behaviors, in the process adding a lot of useless fluff.

I would say law and morality are two views of the same thing. The first pragmatic, the second dogmatic.

I’m not so sure about that.

Nothing is really solved by imersing yourself in fantasy. I am a stout believer in ‘god’ , only I realize it is nothing more than my own potential and will. A part of my psyche, if you will.
I see it as weak and spineless to enter into self deciet willfully

So, do you believe this morality of yours just fell from the sky for ‘moral people’ to inherit? If so, who figured out exactly what right and wrong are?
Or maybe it was a man, writing codes for behaviors(read:laws) for his people which were then followed for generations that spawned the views that compilate ‘morality’?

Everyone views the world through the scope of ‘I’, there is no other way. Unless you can astral travel? Everyone is selfish in everything that they do.The difference between me and them is I don’t hide that behind pretense. There is no ‘way I’d like to see the world’ there is ‘how I see the world’. And that is quite simply as it is, free of sugar or pretense.
I don’t know why you equate not agreeing with a set of phoney objective ethics that claim to be ‘the’ way with wanting to completely invert them.
What’s best for me is not stealing, or looting, or doing anything whatsoever illegal. You are aproaching a strawman, try not to kick it.

I disagree that people today are somehow ‘smarter’. Technology has advanced and is advancing, sure, but the average person doesn’t know much more than what our progenitors knew, just different things. In fact, the slothful view on education today, I would put a roman student from the time of ceaser up against the average kid from alabama and feel safe in my bet…

Russiantank,

You would be literally unable to function of you ceased to make judgements altogether. What you are really saying is, there is an arbitrary line at which we must stop making judgements, because it is impolite. I disagree.
Observing and learning both go hand in hand with judgements.

By ‘born with’ I assume you must mean ‘built in’ geneticly. And if so, how the heck can you tell? If your buddy is really horny and can’t stop beating off 12 times a day, how do you know if he is preprogrammed to be a sexual insatiable of if he somehow learned to be?
You don’t.
As I find atempting to distinguish nature vs nurture issues, I lump it all into ‘nature’ . What we learn in our natural human society naturally from other humans and things humans created, it is all nature. The line between genetic and sociological is arbitrary…

Yes, from our perspectives, and based on observable reality. But try telling that to a massochist burner and a Nun…

BUZZZZZZ Oh sorry, that is incorrect. thanks for playing.
I make all my judgements based on rationality. There is no ‘knee jerk’ reaction, I am above such things. I have good reason to hold the general contempt for religion that I do

Now there’s a term I see bandied about quite often, as if it means something. If being convinced of something is being ‘brainwashed’, and to not be brainwashed is to be noncommital about everything, I’ll take brainwashed.

Which isn’t very far at all…
Do you honestly see no averse effects on society…real…measurable…effect…caused entirely by christian dogma? Not surprising, most don’t. It is hard to see something when you are imersed in it.

What other way, exactly, can any opinion be formed, if not through an experience? But no, you are incorrect in the context you are shooting for. You think youhave me pidgeonholed don’t you? Not even close.
My childhood was completely bereft of religion of any kind. Id say my parents were atheists but the subject of religion literally never came up. I am one of the very few complete free of religious conditioning of any sort.

So now I am the emotional reactionary that doesn’t even understand my own motives? Boy this little festival of condecendingness keeps getting more exciting.
Wrong again man, I have no ‘I was beaten by nuns and now I hate religion’ story. I have always seen it as foolishness, even when i was a little boy. But the fact that these adults all had an imaginary friend sparked an interest in psychology…and later theology…
I dislike christianity because I took the time to actually learn what it is about, free clergy sugarcoating and opressive ‘believe or burn’ conditioning. What I found is a rational consuming thought virus, that I feel holds the few that are capable back from advancing mentally and technologically.

Nice dictomy, but it is false. I think intellectual freedom is good ‘for me’ I think the ‘right’ to intellectual freedom is good for me because it insures that. I also think the active supression of intellectual freedom, even when the right to it still exists, supresses potential that could potentially effect me and my environment.

You assume I look for justification outside of myself.
I don’t, i am an Autotheist.
I don’t do what I do or hold the opinions that I do because I think they are the ‘right’ ones, I hold them because I enjoy them and they are mine.

Presumptuous…so presumptuous…You are operating under critical misunderstandings.

Now you’re starting to get it.

Determinism at work.

And by actively making an effort to ‘change’, are you not just acting on prior conditions and thoughts that lead you to decide to ‘change’? hmmmm?

Though circumstances beyond your control :slight_smile:
But yes, it is natural to lash out at religion whilst breaking free of it, then a period of calming follows. The CoS brands certain newcomers ‘1st phase’ Satanists, still full of holy hellfire and venom for the church.
I am constantly scrutinizing and replacing my opinions rationally. Some stand the test of time, some do not, but my contempt for the christian, and secondarily all religion exists rationally.

All throughout this post, you presume to know how I feel and what my motives, rational must be. I understand you see yourself as having once been ‘the same’ and are trying to show me ‘the light’ that you saw, but let me assure you based on what has been said I am not even close to what you portray me to be.
When I meet ‘those people’ I generally feel a sense of, well, nothing. If ‘those people’ bring up religion, I am more than happy to engage them, and never become hostile. I am always quite cheerful and polite when i discuss. They however, rarely fail to get visibly angry once they hear what I have to say.

Bah. I think Anton got it right, when he said 'if you try to love everyone and everything your love becomes devalued and worthless, and you lose any sense of qualitative assesment.
blanket love is even worse than blanket hate.

Bessy,
Part of the reason we call it ‘Satanism’ is to keep people that can’t be bothered to open a book away. If you are not the type to read a book or do your own research, there is nothing to say.
Spoonfeeding and coddling are behaviors best left to egalitarians and altruists.

i kinda feel bad for satanists because now MarylinMansn is part of their church (or is he the new preist or somehing like that?!) . that guy doesnt even fall under the “industrial” genre…talk about doing things for the sake of publicity…

i actually do think that satanical (er…i mean Anton Lavey) is right about the “'if you try to love everyone and everything your love becomes devalued and worthless” theory, but i think that that is too harsh, and Bessy’s theory is too unrealistic. BALANCE, yin/yang, etc. is necessary…extremist sides never help keep this balance.

it is unrealistic for people to go around grinning all the time without there being bruises and syringes stickingout of their forearms. However, hating everything except for a few things (which in my take of satanism, usually ends up being sex/gluttony/sex) is just a dark way of looking at things.

i beleive that an individual can be happy at extremes, but generically speaking it is healthy for humans to have a little bit of everything in their lives (i.e. diets–> you need a little bit of protein/vitamin C/ Zinc/iron/fiber…even sugar is needed!, exercise–> too much can hurt you or tear your muscles but too little will leave you fat and depressed, sleep–> too much is bad for you, too little is considered insomnia)

anyways, what i am trying to say is that perhaps we should all love (or maybe LIKE is a better term) everything, and dislike them only if we are given reason to, but LOVE only the selected things that we personally need to be happy.

then again…im a tree-hugger myself… :stuck_out_tongue:

p.s.: doktorS, please explain the concept of SATANIC RITUALS…i am sure we are all foggy on that…

Ooo, much work to be done!

“The line between genetic and sociological is arbitrary…”

I would definatly have to disagree with you there… There is certainly some criterion at work. There is by no means a totally conclusive method by which to distinguish one from the other, but tell me: Do you believe this fact: “I obtain pleasure (disregard how much) from listening specifically to Gunz n Roses” is a genetic qualification or a sociological one. Now this fact: “I obtain pleasure (disregard how much) from the event known as orgasm” Is this genetic or sociological. I agree that the level of pleasure can vary due to the socialogical. Someone can come to love sex more if they are taught that way. But there are certainly plenty of reasons to draw a distinction between the two above facts. If you tell me anything other than what I want to hear, than we should start right here. If you do not believe there is this distinction and in some cases it is fairly distinct, than I will have to argue this point first. If you agree with me, than we can go on.

"Yes, from our perspectives, and based on observable reality. But try telling that to a massochist burner and a Nun… "

I will not tell them this, I will ask the massochist burner: “When you burn yourself, you undoubtedly feel pain. Now, by the nature of this feeling, can you understand how another person would react negatively towards getting burnt.” I would bet money he says yes. This is no argument ofcourse, betting money is no confirmation, but I do believe this would occur. Not only that, but I would bet even more money that if you could test this guy when he is a baby (somehow travel back in time or whatever) and see how the baby reacts to fire, you will notice what nature intended. And this is probably one of the most important methods of distinguishing nature vs nurture. Observing infants. Now the same goes for the nun. And this one seems more obvious. Ask a nun (if she has ever experienced sexual arousal): “Is sex just a painful experience, or do you aknowledge how pleasurable it is, and just have moral and religious reasons for avoiding it.” As a matter of fact ive heard religious figures call sex something that the Devil uses to lure you over to the dark side or whatever. They say, “He lures you with pleasure, but you must be STRONG! Resist your animalistic urges!” So I would think religious people would easily admit the innate pleasure of sex…

“I have good reason to hold the general contempt for religion that I do”

Its too easy man… Your use of “General” shows me exactly what I accuse you of. This statement is analoguous to my dad saying: “I have good reason to hold my general contempt of black people, statistics show they commit more crimes!” Be WARY of anything “GENERAL.” Induction is FAR FAR FAR too inacurate and inconclusive for such conviction towards what you admit is a “general” contempt. I believe the less huristics you hold, the more rational you are. Especially when it comes to people. There are FAR too many variables involved to be able to form too many actually rational conclusions. I think you will be hard pressed to support this general contempt but I will get to this later.

“Now there’s a term I see bandied about quite often, as if it means something. If being convinced of something is being ‘brainwashed’, and to not be brainwashed is to be noncommital about everything, I’ll take brainwashed.”

That not how I use it at all. You saw later what I meant by it. The significant majority of cognitive associations can be considered brainwashing. I do not use brainwashed in any negative sense here. Hell you will be hard pressed to find me using anything in a negative or a positive sense. Thats me trying to stay un-biased and not fall into the same trap :slight_smile: I do not mean anything negative by trap! God its TOUGH being neutral! :smiley:

“Do you honestly see no averse effects on society…real…measurable…effect…caused entirely by christian dogma?”

No, not on society. On me… I only care as much about society as it is usefull to me. And yes, I see many averse effects on myself due to religious dogma. And those people that I conclude cause these effects I have rational negative reactions towards. BUT, by no means do all religious people have averse effects on me. Quite the opposite, but I will get to this later.

“What other way, exactly, can any opinion be formed, if not through an experience?”

Well if you consider my opinion that orgasm feels good… though it got there from experience, I would say its not sociological… And thats the important distinction.

" Boy this little festival of condecendingness keeps getting more exciting."

I am not being condescending! Just observing… :cry:

“I dislike christianity because I took the time to actually learn what it is about, free clergy sugarcoating and opressive ‘believe or burn’ conditioning. What I found is a rational consuming thought virus, that I feel holds the few that are capable back from advancing mentally and technologically.”

This is a reason to dislike the people that actually do what you accuse the whole of Christianity of doing. This is your mistake.

“I also think the active supression of intellectual freedom, even when the right to it still exists, supresses potential that could potentially effect me and my environment.”

I feel as if you are raising intellectual freedom to a pedestal upon which it has no rational standing. Intellectual freedom in general is only as good as its positive consequences to you. I for one, if encountering a situation in which I feel I can safely “chain” everyone intellectually, in that they become my slaves, would jump upon the opertunity. Would you?

“And by actively making an effort to ‘change’, are you not just acting on prior conditions and thoughts that lead you to decide to ‘change’? hmmmm?”

If you can call the belief that pleasure/avoidance of pain is the driving force of human action a sociologically arrived at belief, and if you would argue that this belief has no more a rational grounding than any other belief, than yes, I am on the same level as everyone else with their beliefs. This is indeed the main problem I face. I am thoroughly convinced of the truth of this observation of human psychology. Would you though deny this claim? If so, than I have no where to go. But if my memory serves, do you not accept this premise? If you accept it, than I am only doing what I am determined to do. I am just better aware than the rest :wink:

“Though circumstances beyond your control”

My control in the matter is not an issue. I am a determinist, you knew that. There is no control…

“But yes, it is natural to lash out at religion whilst breaking free of it, then a period of calming follows.”

I wonder if you mean that I was one to break free of it? Because I didnt… I was never under the influence of any religion. My distaste for it came from other sociological effects.

“I am constantly scrutinizing and replacing my opinions rationally. Some stand the test of time, some do not”

A very important feature of an intellectually free person… I would hope I acomplish this as well, though it is certainly not easy.

“my contempt for the christian, and secondarily all religion exists rationally.”

And I am here to argue that in this you are failing at suficiently scrutinizing your opinions.

“When I meet ‘those people’ I generally feel a sense of, well, nothing. If ‘those people’ bring up religion, I am more than happy to engage them, and never become hostile. I am always quite cheerful and polite when i discuss. They however, rarely fail to get visibly angry once they hear what I have to say.”

This may be true, but from my original reading of your post, I felt something of a predjudice against religious people. I could very well be wrong… But it is your admitted general distaste of religion that leads me to this interpretation. I do not feel a “General” distaste is sufficiently rational. There are plenty of people who in their belief, and in being chained to a set of beliefs actually end up being AWSOME for me… Hell, imagine a girl who somehow came to believe the only absolutely good in life is being my sex slave… Thats the opposite of intelectual freedom, but I do not see how you could rationally (non-sociologically) have negative feelings towards this girl. I feel like in a diffirent but similar circumstance, say if a person very useful to you is associated with Christianity, you would still have negative feelings towards the fact that they are christian, and by no further consideration of consequence. I am like this in many instances, I would be genuinly surprised if you have mastered neutrality.

Maybe I have you pegged wrong Dr. S. Maybe my interpretation and percieved predjudice is incorrect. Either way, as always it apears as if we are bassicly on the same page. I would like to caution you though on the validity of anything general. I think any qualitative assesment that is influenced by any type of huristic should be given extra consideration and scrutiny.