a challenge to conservatives..

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21

K: and I see the radical right wing attempting to end democracy…
for example the attempted overthrow of the legitimately elected
president Biden…and the continuation of passing state laws
that allow the GOP/MAGA party to dismiss the popular vote
if it isn’t to their liking… several states now have laws in the
books that allow them to overturn the popular will of the people
by overturning the vote count and declaring another winner,
regardless of the actual vote… Arizona, Georgia, Arkansas,
Texas, Montana, and Florida are states with laws in place…
and how is that practicing democracy?

no, the radical right wing is engaged in "cooking’’ the books in
order to win elections… and how is that “obeying” the will
of the people, which is how a democracy works…

Kropotkin

22

K: Not at all… I see them, the right wing,
denying people their personal autonomy… any time you deny
someone their personal autonomy, you are failing in following
democracy… and individual rights within that democracy…

Kropotkin

23

But that is not what you said before.

What you said before is that the fault of conservatives is that they focus on what is the right thing to do here and now, and that that would hinder the achievement of long term goals.

24

K: oh boy, so many assumptions here, I cannot even sort them out…

ok, please name me something that “the left is doing things
they consciously know is wrong”… give me a list of things the
left is consciously doing wrong?

Kropotkin

25

Before I do that, tell me what I assumed that is incorrect? I will retract right away. Thankfully, what you said is recorded in this thread, so we can make reference.

26

K: I am attempting to answer your questions… if it doesn’t seem to answer that
particular answer… oh well… I am not at this point, aiming to hew to any
overall viewpoint… I am simply answering your questions…
but in any case, you still haven’t even answered my original query…
which is what is the overall goal of the GOP/MAGA party? what is the
agenda you are trying to reach?

Kropotkin

27

What child? The unborn thing is not a human life. It does not breathe air like all living Humans do.

28

You would have to prove that in court.

This would probably not hold up.

29

Ther is no reference anywhere in scientific, philosophical, prose or poetic literature that considers an embrionic state to constitute a different species, or to constitute death, such that a human embrio would not be a living human.

30

That is the main reason I do not think it would hold up.

31

In fact, the first reference to a distinction anywhere for any species seems to exist already in the context of legalizing abortion.

32

Nature doesn’t give a crap if an unborn fetus lives or dies. It’s people that communicate with a white bearded dude in the sky that try to inflict their mental illness on others.

33

to be considered a “sentient being” is the criteria… not when
life is supposed to start… for until a being is sentient it doesn’t
matter what they are… we can justify the killing of animals by
the lack of sentience in animals…

and sentience in my handy dandy dictionary
(although I do disagree with it)

Sentience: means having the capacity to having feelings.
this requires a level of awareness and cognitive ability…
thus we can only attribute to fetuses, at the earliest,
18 to 25 weeks and really more likely to 6 months which
is closer to 26 or 27 weeks… and children do not have
any self-awareness until between 15 and 24 months,
between one year and two years old…so strictly speaking,
children don’t have sentience until they become self-aware,
at least one year of age…

Kropotkin

34

Nature doesn’t give a crap if a born human lives or dies either. That is ridiculous.

35

I am afraid you are mistaken, neither the people suing nor the people defending are claiming that the issue at stake is the right of a sentient being to live or die. Both are arguing that there is a right to live, and one side is simply contesting whether a living embrio is alive.

36

Nature doesn’t give a crap if one person scalps another person while they are still conscious while they are being raped.

I am astounded.

What did you just say?

37

I explained this in that other thread. What you’re saying is that every woman, of every state, is free to choose whether or not to abort. And that’s true. But what you’re missing is that, if everyone decided to ban abortion, they wouldn’t be able to materialize that decision. It’s similar to, but not exactly the same as, allowing everyone to decide whether they should smoke or not while prohibiting them from banning tobacco sales even if everyone approves of that ban. And it’s actually worse than that because it applies to all states. They give you a choice, they tell everyone noone can take that choice away from you and then they subtly influence you to go in this or that direction. They tell you you are free to choose between smoking and not smoking, they tell everyone noone can take that choice away from you and then they make sure that tobacco is sold and advertised wherever you go. Everyone eventually starts smoking while thinking it’s their choice.

But they are. People aren’t free to ban abortion if they decide to do so.

And if people decide to ban abortion, they aren’t free to do so.

Unless there’s someone secretely guiding your decisions without you being aware of it and without you doing anything about it.

Not unless everyone agrees to it.

38

Who do you think states are that make laws to ban abortion, dirt and rocks? Do you think a MAP with a pic of an outline of a state makes the laws?

Of course not! It is PEOPLE in those states that are NOW free to BAN abortion!

It’s a select group of people for each state banning what the majority of people in that state can do.

It is like SCOTUS leaving it up to the states to decide if they want to ban slavery or not. Duh?

39

The Supreme Court is not thre to decide what is allowed or what isn’t. It is there to interpret what the law as it exists allows or doesn’t.

Thankfully, they are trained lawyers and not suceptible to arguments like “nature doesn’t care.”

40

If someone does not like abortion then they shouldn’t get one.

If someone doesn’t like OTHER PEOPLE getting an abortion that is too bad! They should let their GOD do the judging, like they PREACH! What a bunch of HIPOCRYTES!