If you are a member of the Christian Right, take 14 minutes out of your busy schedule and watch this video. You will be glad you did and find out that the conservatives have been lying to you.
Not a fan of the “Christian” right; but you lost me with “Conservaturds”. I did, however, watch the video and enjoyed it.
EH? Really?
Conservative and turd.
turd
/təːd/
nounVULGAR SLANG
1.
a lump of excrement.
2.
a person regarded as obnoxious or contemptible.
K: as is known, I don’t watch video’s and I am as anti-conservative as anybody around
here, but I too object to the word, Conservaturds… we are above that sort of thing…
to call them a name like that is to lower oneself down to their level…
to fight a pig in the pigsty only brings you down to their level and get
you dirty and not smelling good… let us remain above them and not
resort to cheap conservative games like calling them names… leave
the low tactics to them…if we are better than them, act like it…
Kropotkin
Oooh la de dah.
Is that the “royal” we?
Pigs are the highest of all the animals in the farmyard.
You do yourself a disservice to insult pigs.
Pigs are intelligent gregarious, good parents.
They take care of their living space and always defecate away from their styies if they have the chance.
Since you are a wokie (who hates pigs for some reason) the post was not directed at you.
ANd I’m sorry if you think videos are too down market for your exaulted self. Remind me to get on my knees and abase myself before your royal presence in future.
But in all seriousness, given the low rent quality of posts on this Forum I genuinely thought Irreleus’ problem with Conservaturds was about not knowing the definition of “turd”, being a rather gentle and amusing insult in England.
K: turd is not quite the ''gentle and amusing insult" in America that it apparently is in England…
In America, calling someone a “turd” is fighting words…at least in the villages I’ve been in…
Kropotkin
I think the makers of South Park and SNL would disagree.
And what of your insult to pigs?
I’m a Christian and a conservative and the posted video in the OP doesn’t compel me to change any of my beliefs.
Question to the floor:
If any of you watched it, what do you think was its most compelling argument?
What ought a conservative Christian (like myself) seriously wrestle with from the video?
Why don’t you go first? Any compelling arguments? Wrestling with any points from the video? Any reason why I should bother to watch?
Whether Jesus was a capitalist or a socialist will almost always depend on the political prejudices of any particular Christian. The political prejudices themselves then rooted subjectively in dasein rather than in an argument able to actually prove that, objectively, he was in fact either one or the other.
Now, however you yourself come down on this issue, what interests me is taking Christianity – progressive or conservative – into discussions the revolves more around these issues…
1] a demonstrable proof of the existence your God
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods were/are championed…but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual’s belief in God
4] the questions that revolve around theodicy and your own particular God
Just in case discussing religion out in the real world is of interest to someone.
I watched the first 8 1/2 minutes of the video. I enjoyed it, but the bread/debt in the Lord’s Prayer is probably referring to spiritual food/debt. Some people consider me conservative when it comes to certain things and a little left-leaning when it comes to economics and certain other things.
I am fond of the Third Way mentioned by Tim Keller in The Reason for God.
I think when it comes to deciding whether or not Jesus was down with capitalism or socialism, you really have to nail down the definitions. It is a no brainer that he was not down with greed or hoarding wealth. All throughout the Bible (stuff concerning Jesus included) are examples of unjust government/religious/family/friend authority being challenged/ignored. Sometimes obeyed when going with the flow, as if it was just part of reality/facticity/climate. Sometimes turned over tables. Sometimes got himself crucified.
Felix…
No…there’s no reason you ought to watch the video in my opinion. We’d all do well to, say, read a book written by a reputable scholar instead. On any related topic.
iambiguous…
1 - You believe all sorts of things without any evidence whatever, so I don’t feel particularly motivated to give you “evidence” for God. When someone has such a vicious double-standard, “evidence” isn’t their issue.
2 - Do you think it’s impossible, in principle, to discover the truth of any proposition? Or just propositions about religious topics?
3 - This is unintelligible to me and sounds like some hobby-horse of yours.
4 - I don’t have any such questions. Maybe you could ask some?
Icthus77…
Given how notoriously ambiguous words like “capitalism” and “socialism” are, at the end of the day, I think your attitude towards the issue is for the best. But I do think it’s safe to say that anyone trying to caricature Christ as a modern-day left-wing democrat, is a lunatic and not worth serious consideration.
Okay, with objective morality on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation on the other side at stake here, if you don’t believe actual evidence is crucial in regard to the existence of your own God, fine, almost none of the other a God, the God, my God folks here believe that’s of vital importance either.
Again, same as above:
What.
Is.
At.
Stake.
Here.
Religious propositions peddled to mere mortals with so much on the line. Why your own propositions and not one of the others?
One of these…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r … traditions
…for example.
Start here: ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 1&t=176529
Then ask yourself, “how might this be applicable to my own spiritual/religious path?”
What, you don’t wonder why God created a planet prone to “natural disasters” that devastate the lives of millions year in and year out? Why He brings around the occasional “extinction event” from time to time? Why He created viruses and countless other horrific medical afflictions that take a terrible toll on the flocks down here.
On children for example. You can start here for that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … _disorders
Iambiguous…
You took the time to repost my comments, but you completely ignored their content.
Re: 1 - You…you personally…believe many things without any evidence, proofs, or reason whatsoever. You take many (most?) of your beliefs completely for granted, accepted without reflection. Therefore, from my perspective, you don’t get to swagger around demanding evidence from everyone else. Obviously, demands for “evidence” are just a form of gaslighting. Something other than a desire for evidence is going on with you.
Re: 2 - If you have no idea how to distinguish between true propositions and false ones, or if you think it’s impossible to distinguish between the two in principle, then you shouldn’t be demanding that Christians produce truth-makers for our beliefs. As in 1, you’re just a pot calling kettles black.
Re: 3 - If you don’t think enough of your position to give some brief overview here, then I’m not going to think enough of it to dive down some rabbit-hole of links to figure your position out.
Re: 4 - Have you ever heard of Christianity? If so, you might have a preliminary sketch in mind of why these sorts of issues aren’t logically problematic for us, even if they remain tragic.
I’ll stick with the content here… .
“Okay, with objective morality on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation on the other side at stake here, if you don’t believe actual evidence is crucial in regard to the existence of your own God, fine, almost none of the other a God, the God, my God folks here believe that’s of vital importance either.”
Which you then fiercely ignore
Does or does not a belief in God eventually get most around to this?
I am not interested in what you propose or believe about God, but what you are able to demonstrate to me that all rational men and women are obligated to propose and to believe in turn. Or, sure, fall back on a leap of faith in God’s “mysterious ways” and take the comfort and the consolation that brings you all the way to the grave.
It’s just that, this being a philosophy venue, one would expect others to go down a little deeper in examining what they propose to us.
Again: With So Much At Stake.
Brief overview?
I’ve devoted an entire thread to exploring the existential relationship between “I” and all of the hopelessly conflicting “proposals” regarding God and religion.
ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 5&t=186929
Call it a “rabbit hole” if you must. But to me you are just one more rendition of Mr. Wiggle when it comes to risking your own precious Self/Soul in exploring the points I raise there.
Again, I’m sticking with the same content here too:
[b]"What, you don’t wonder why God created a planet prone to “natural disasters” that devastate the lives of millions year in and year out? Why He brings around the occasional “extinction event” from time to time? Why He created viruses and countless other horrific medical afflictions that take a terrible toll on the flocks down here.
On children for example. You can start here for that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … _disorders [/b]
Now, sure, there those like Rabbi Kushner who explain it all by suggesting that the God of Abraham is indeed “loving just and merciful”…just not omnipotent. He’s as appalled by what He set in motion as we are.
Though, okay, if you wish to anchor theodicy in things said by Christians to be either “logically problematic” or not, and that comforts and consoles you enough not to construe God as a sadistic monster, take that all the way to the grave with you.
Does anyone here doubt that he or she won’t?
Was Jesus Christ A Socialist Revolutionary? | The Bastani Factor
Dec 24, 2021
For conservatives he is viewed as a source of inspiration, with some even claiming he was an advocate of the free market. But what did Jesus really preach two thousand years ago? Despite the rise of the religious right in recent decades, Aaron Bastani asks whether the central figure in the Christian faith was in fact a socialist revolutionary.
For Christians, the arrival of Jesus Christ changed the world. For believers, he came to take away the sins of humanity, and even if you don’t believe that, his historic influence is extraordinary. He inspired the world’s largest religion, with over 2 billion adherents and the western calendar is even measured in years since his birth. And yet despite all that, few people agree on what he actually taught.
“Was Jesus a socialist or a capitalist?” “A lot of people like to say Jesus was a communist or Jesus was a socialist.” “I believe Jesus is a capitalist. Jesus is going to say thank you for making money and putting people to work!” “Was Jesus a socialist? No, you nitwits!” “Liberals have the traditional Jesus who hated the rich.” “My lord and saviour was most decidedly a conservative! Let’s start first of all with the fact that Jesus was pro-life!” “Jesus did not believe in government coercion to redistribute wealth or to demonize the wealthy!” “Actually, that’s not what this is talking about, neither it has nothing to do with an economic system.”
So, who was Jesus and what did he teach, and was he a socialist who wanted revolution? Well to answer that, we have to start by separating the man, Jesus of Nazareth, from the historical figure of Jesus Christ. We know Jesus existed, because as well as the bible, he’s mentioned in multiple sources, from the historian Josephus Flavius in the first century, to Tacitus and Pliny the younger a century later. We know that he was likely born around 4 BC, and he came from Nazareth in Galilee, and that some referred him as the Messiah. We almost certainly know there was an observant Jewish man called Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified by the occupying roman empire around AD 30. We also know the historical context within which all of that happened.
Firstly, Jesus was born in a place subject to foreign occupation, with the Roman empire ruling directly over the province of Judea from 6 BC, shortly before he was born. Secondly, this gave rise to immense political hostility, and over the following 140 years the province would see multiple revolts. That included the great Jewish revolt, which took place three decades after Jesus had died, and led to destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple. This all meant that Jesus grew up in a country littered with travelling dissidents, preaching a heady mix of theology, ethics, and politics. Invariably, these took on demands for social justice. Around the time of Jesus birth, a man named Judas of Galilee led resistance to a roman census, said to be imposed for tax purposes. Another was Simon of Zealot, who was allegedly referred to as the Messiah. What these figures had in common, was a mix of political anger, religious rhetoric, and calls for social justice. Alongside what we would now today call Jewish nationalism. The core teachings of the Gospel and how Christ was received in his final years and the decades after he died, need to be understood in that context.
So, what did Jesus teach? First, let’s look at the issue of wealth. The bible indicates that Jesus himself was a “techton”, a woodworker or builder, meaning a low-class citizen who was almost certainly illiterate. We know he preached for years in that Galilean countryside; a region looked down on by the metropolitan elite of his day. He was likely seen as a country boy. It’s no surprise then, that cause of the ministry of Jesus was the issue of poverty, something he would have observed every day. In identifying solutions to poverty, Jesus appealed to Jewish scriptures, which were clear on the subject. In Exodus for instance, charging interest on loans to the poor is forbidden. “Remember this day when the strong hand of the Lord leads you out of bondage!” While in Deuteronomy it is stated that creditors are forbidden to accost debtors at their homes. Deuteronomy also states that hired servants should receive their wages on the same day they’ve earned them - a dream for many freelancers today. But that’s before even mentioning the jubilee, where at the end of a 50-year cycle, all lands are returned to their original owners, and all bond servants are released. Replete throughout these teachings, which Jesus knew and would often appeal to, was a message of not only economic justice, but just as importantly economic rights. Another theme throughout Jesus’ teachings was sharing your wealth with those in need. In Deuteronomy we’re told to “give liberally and be ungrudging when you do so”. From this account, “the Lord your God will bless you in all your work, in all that you undertake”. Elsewhere, it states, “open your hands the poor and needy neighbour in your land” In the book of Isaiah, we even offered a pithy motto fit for the Instagram generation: “Wash yourselves make yourselves clean, remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes, cease to do evil, learn to do good, seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow!” This wasn’t abstract, indeed the economic issues that Jesus focused on, are familiar to us two thousand years later. When asked by his disciples, how to pray and who to pray for, Jesus responds forgive us our debts. The Greek word “opheleimata” is close to debts than trespasses, as the king James bible translates it. What is more, “aphiemi” means not only forgive, but also release, so, “forgive us our trespasses” can easily become “release us from our debts”. That line comes from the Lord’s prayer, reputedly passed from John the Baptist to Jesus. Another notable thing about that prayer is that it speaks in a collective “we” not an “I”. It is a social and political vocalization, which includes economic concerns. Here’s the whole thing:
our father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come,
thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven,
give us this day our daily bread,
and release us from our debts,
as we release others from their debts,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Food and debt forgiveness, sounds a bit like a first century Bernie Sanders:
“If we have children who are hungry in America, if we have elderly people who can’t afford their prescription drugs, you know what, that impacts you that impacts me, and I worry very much about a society, where some people spiritually say, it doesn’t matter to me, I got it; I don’t care about other people. So, my spirituality is that we are all in this together.”
Alongside economic rights, demands to share, and an attention to the evils of debt. Jesus repeatedly makes clear how he feels about the rich: “Woe to you who are rich,” he says in Luke, “for you have already received your comfort!” Similarly, in Matthew, he says, “So the last shall be first and the first last, for many be called, but few chosen!” What is clear here, is that riches aren’t a gateway to spiritual redemption. Quite the opposite. Indeed, this is explicitly stated in one of the bible’s most memorable lines, again in Matthew, when Jesus says, that “it’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God!” Then there’s the epistle of James, supposedly authored by James the just, Jesus’ brother, but more likely to be a composite of his views, created by a later editor. There we find some of the clearest messages on wealth in the entire bible: “Let the believer who is lowly boast in being raised up, and the rich in being brought low, because the rich will disappear like a flower in the field!” Elsewhere it says, “Come now you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you, your riches have rotted and your clothes are moth eaten, your gold and silver have rusted!” Beyond the disdain for the one percent, Jesus is clear that life is about more than an excess of private property. In the parable of the rich fool in Luke, he warns his disciples, “be on your guard against all kinds of greed, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of possessions!”
The early Christians took that to heart and lived it out in their actions. This is documented in the book of acts, which describes how “all who believed were together, and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.” The early Christians did this to imitate their Messiah. But “all things in common”, doesn’t that sound like “I’m literally a communist”? It seems Jesus even had a message regarding free health care. When a sorcerer named Simon saw how the Holy Spirit was transmitted by the apostles through the laying on of hands, he offered the money, saying, “give me also this power, so that anyone on who I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” To this the disciple Peter replied, “may your silver perish with you because you thought you could obtain god’s gift with money!” This follows the teaching of Jesus who says in Matthew, “as you go proclaim the good news the kingdom of heaven has come near, cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. You received without payment, give without payment!” Indeed, across the whole of the gospels there are 41 stories of physical or mental healing. Jesus heals the blind, cures the withered hand, and stops bleeding. His ministry, alongside helping those who endure poverty and debt, is combating ill health. At the time this was a big deal, since people would make religious offerings in exchange to be healed, something which poorer people obviously couldn’t do. Jesus’ message, by contrast, was simple access to health shouldn’t be decided by the ability to pay, and at the very least withholding it on such a basis is immoral.
Then there is the manner in which Jesus died. Jesus was crucified, a punishment regularly reserved for rebels and insurrectionaries. What is more, he’s found guilty by Pontius Pilate for not denying that he refers to himself as King of the Jews, something perceived as a direct threat to Roman imperial authority. While we can debate whether Jesus was a revolutionary socialist, what we know for certain, is that he wasn’t a conservative. Indeed, the nature of his mission, in word and deed, was the opposite of conservativism. Russell Kirk’s “The Conservative Mind”, outlines a number of core principles for the philosophy. One is that society needs orders and classes. Another that economic levelling is undesirable, and that social change must happen slowly, if at all. Now Jesus of Nazareth would not have agreed with any of that, and certainly didn’t preach gradual change, but rather demanded his followers embody the world that they wanted to see. We see something similar repeatedly in the Gospel, and at no point does Jesus seek to uphold the existing order. This is conveyed in Luke, when he says, “blessed are you who are poor, for yours the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled.” This, in the words of the “Levellers”, English revolutionaries in the 17th century, was a plea to turn the world upside down, not to be conserved; and now compare these teachings with the politicians today, who mobilized faith in order to win.
There was Ronald Reagan who rather than help the poor, declared “the homeless who were homeless you might say by choice”, then there was George W Bush, who said he believed that God wants him to run for president, before starting a conflict in Iraq, which killed as many as one million innocent people. President Bush reportedly having claimed that God told him to go to war. Mr Bush reported as having said, quote: “God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan, and I did. And then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq, and I did.” The truth is, that politicians who appeal to Jesus, often act entirely at odds with his teaching. They don’t help the needy, they wage war on them. And meanwhile the conservative pundits, aligned with the religious right, they sound kind of evil: “We are at war with all these fanatics and we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity!” But how is it possible that people with such widely differing views, both appeal to the same individual. Well, that’s partly because over time Jesus, and what would become Christianity, was less about a zealot who wanted to reorder Jewish society in the 1st century AD, removing Roman oppression, and became something else. As his teachings were exported and distributed by Greek speaking Jews in the diaspora, they not only preached to other Jews, but also Gentiles. Consequently, teachings infused with a message of social justice and repeated calls to stand against tyranny and occupation, increasingly emphasize celestial redemption, while grimly accepting the world as it is. Something, which certainly wasn’t the case with the Jewish prophets that Jesus appealed to. This explains the tension within Christianity and how it has given rise to liberation theology but has also been deployed by tyrants themselves. It’s also how we’re presented with teachings, which for some people are supremely political, but for others apparently apolitical.
Was Jesus a socialist? Technically not, given the idea wasn’t in circulation for around another 1800 years, but he wanted to transform society, focusing on issues like debt, poverty, economic rights, and healthcare. Rather than that happen gradually, he called on his followers to embody the world they wanted to see in their own actions. What is more, he was by no measure a conservative. While the right loves to talk about social issues as they look to the Old Testament, when it comes to economic policy, the place they look last, is the teaching of the central figure in their faith, Jesus Christ. The reason? Because by the descriptions and definitions they themselves use, then yes, Jesus of Nazareth was a revolutionary socialist.
Mr Bastani relishes the ire with whcih the consevative right would wince at his reflections, though I doubt Bastani is in any sense religious.
Bob thanks for posting the transcript. Based on my research on the historical Jesus I largely agree with Bastani.
Note to Jesus:
Decide for yourself if you are capitalist or a socialist.
Decided?
Okay, now let’s get back to this:
[b] Why did You – God? – create a planet prone to “natural disasters” that devastate the lives of millions year in and year out? Why did You – God? – bring around the occasional “extinction event” from time to time? Why did You – God – create viruses and countless other horrific medical afflictions that take a terrible toll on the flocks down here.
On children for example. You can start here for that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … _disorders [/b]
The map is interesting on that link…
We could only conclude that god particularly hates black and brown children.