A loving God?

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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What guarantee does anyone have that upon death that they will suddenly have the mystery of God’s limit’s or limitlessness revealed?

What is the worth of concerning over that which may very well never be known more than in a dream of something that will only possibly be inferred eternally as long as one’s self, physical or otherwise, is able to observe?

What is the valued return of fretting on the limitation of God in this life, lest anyone forget about this life while concentrating on ideas of another?

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Exactly. Neither guarantee, worth, nor valued return. I’m happy to assume there’s a full-stop at the end of the life sentence. If only Nihilists hadn’t given Nihilism such a bad name!!!

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And I am happy assuming there is a God, and leaving it at that.
I’ll worry about anything after this life when I get there.

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Ya, it’s such a silly coin-flip. I hate choosing teams… what’s in a name, and all that. :slight_smile:

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Doesn’t matter.
There’s nothing guaranteeing that you won’t have your opportunity after dying if there is something to choose to accept.

If Christians ever give you grief…simply point out that God not only had compassion for Thomas, but allowed him freely to doubt and reject until proven to.

What matters truly, regardless of God or not, is not whether you believe in God or not.
It is whether you choose to accept the answer you find as true.

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Amen!

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Hi gib,

That goes for a number of words, although it could be questionable whether it is a question of sophistication, for example the word we render as “perfect” which can mean complete, ideal or faultless, the choice of which does make a big difference. Language isn’t just a question of communication; it is also the transportation of ideas and concepts. I find though, that the “Hebrew” or rather the Semitic concept as sophisticated as any, but we are moving today within areas of verifiable scientific discovery which requires us to abandon fundamentalist exclusivism. Our theories must be more than an academic hunch and allow for pre- or non-scientific language – which is what scripture is.

I don’t know what was conceivable thousands of years ago; I only recognise an ability to form abstract ideas, albeit in figurative and analogical language. To me it isn’t a question whether the ideas were there; they were as far as I am concerned. It was merely that the modern language wasn’t available, which has refined some of the concepts of those days and found better ways to express them.

It becomes a subject-matter for satire when modern day Christians insist on using the language of the King James Bible in all circumstances, which people like Adrian Plass have picked up and exploited. When these people fail to realise that their use of language is comical, they also don’t realise that their logic is absurd. They haven’t even realised the aspects that you have brought into the discussion.

Shalom

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Interesting that its OK for a God to use cruel punishment and demand total loyalty,servitude and is considered a loving giving benevolent being. If God were human God would be a horrific dictator. Morals and ethics kind of fly out the window when it comes to kissing God’s behind. What is Ok for God is unforgivable for human…Kind of hypocritical is it not??? Why bow to one and think it wonderful and not to the other?? Personally bowing hurts my back. Subservience gets stuck in my throat like gagging, and love???, well I would rather lose my soul and life then love and worship a being that requires and demands love and worship. Tad egotistical if you ask me. I have learned that any creature with such a swollen ego cannot be trusted.

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But Kris this is just a god that we have created in our own image and likeness.

I somehow sense that a real god is nothing at all like this. We have more than muddied the waters - if this were the god I felt I would run away so quickly – actually I have. :laughing:

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Kriswest:

[b]My sentiments exactly. It is egotism projected onto God by men (see Arturus Rising’s comment above). The Great God who existed forever and ever before he created human beings…REQUIRES man’s love and devotion? Preposterous. This is why, in the same Bible, Paul stated:

“And he is not served by human hands,
as though he needed anything
because he himself gives all men life
and breath and everything else…”

Acts 17:25 NIV

P.S. How’s Dissident’s going for ya? Kinda slow, I think.[/b]

Take care,
Jay

Arturus Rising:

Amen to that.

Jay

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Why box God in from having desire and the capacity for want?

According to the Bible, God seems to want attention of, at least, the Israelites.

Exodus 20:5 - You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me

Exodus 34:14 - Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 4:24 - For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 5:9 - You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Deuteronomy 6:15 - for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.

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Then again…

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…then again?

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I didn’t know there was a difference… :-k

So do you mean to say that their concepts of ‘omnipotence’, ‘omniscience’, ‘omnibenevolence’, etc. were just as sophisticated as ours, but they hadn’t developed the means by which to explain/express them? What do you say of the concept of ‘omnipotence’ as he who can defy logic itself - as in lifting a rock not even he can lift? Did the ancients have anything like this in mind?

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Hi gib,

Communication is something you do the moment you enter a room where somebody else is sitting. This can be done by a number of methods, including language. Our language may be pragmatic (commands, expression of will, appeal) conventional (polite, mannerly, superficial) or informative (the transportation of ideas and concepts).

Considering that their conceptions were pre-scientific their ability to discover and apply what they had discovered was phenomenal. Modern day human-beings are quite dull in comparison – perhaps until they are forced to be more perceptive. The terminologies ‘omnipotence’, ‘omniscience’, ‘omnibenevolence’ are quite new, rather “ידעת כלה׃” (yada kol) to “know all [things]” would be an expression used – but look in the Bible and you will find it hardly used. It is also used in John’s Gospel by the disciples for Jesus, but Jesus refuses to react to it.

“Almighty” (שׁדּי- shadday) hast the implication of being “burly” and powerful and seems to be an emphasis of El (El shadday), which means strength. God is “merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and great in goodness and truth”, but not omnibenevolent.

The religious concepts of the Bible are far more existential and earthy than our mild interest or readiness to debate over semantics, which we deem “sophisticated”. These terminologies are really “religion from the second row”, expressions of religious philosophy, and not something that truly religious people are particularly concerned with. It is only when the narrowness of fundamentalist exegesis takes over that these discussions occur.

Shalom

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Jay, I have had little time on the net lately so I am mostly here or at another site afew minutes here or there mostly when I have to look up something. Which Dis??? You do realize there is a clone of the original. :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: I hope things are doing good for you, I miss our exchanges.

Arc you sense correctly. But maybe not. Would not any sentient being be fallible? No matter how “powerful” it is? I have proposed before that a being that seeks perfection seeks the end of all matter and life. Zero existence is perfection. No flaws can exist. Also I have found that most major religions make mention of more than one God. So is it not possible that more than one sentient being has a vested interest in this earth and her creatures??? I know something has stopped me from getting killed when I should have died. I know for a brief moment something was around me. A car stops when it should not. I live. A gun should go off, it does not, I live. My body is so ill I should die, I live. Something keeps me alive so far. I won’t forever I know this, but, I should be dead at least 10 times over.

So I know something is with us. What that something is I cannot say. I just talk with it. It is always best to be polite even if you have no clue what you are being polite to or even if there is really nothing there. Besides I am mostly alone so even if its just me talking to me it still is something right?? :laughing:

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Kris:

I have no way of knowing whether I am sensing right or not. But I do not actually call into play any characteristics of this god or any labeling, save maybe one - that this is a loving god. I don’t use terminology as in powerful or perfect. I couldn’t even answer your question about a 'sentient being being fallible as we would be using 'human reasoning" to see a god and the universe in a certain way – in other words, to judge it. If god truly is beyond all of this conception that we have, how could our minds possibly conceive of this god…albeit there are those who say look to the universe for the answers…and sure, we can do this in order to attribute this or that characteristic to a god…but one that is capable of actually creating all of this… why would we want to name It.

The god that i sense or would sense is both beyond and below all of this. I do remember some other thread where we discussed something of this.

I have felt like you at times that 'something" has been there for me - I have sensed it, felt it, perhaps it is the love that permeates the universe…perhaps it is spirits that wander the Earth to help us. I don’t know. I know that love and grace permeate the universe and that everything and anything is possible.

As far as there being more than One Cause, as i said, I somehow feel that there is grace and that it can be as light and dark and mysterious as even love and God can be. I intuit that there is so much at work in the universe that we don’t even begin to have a clue about, not the scientists, not the philosophers, not the spiritual leaders or the mystics ad infinitum.

I have said it before, when it comes to a god, what can we do but simply intuit and experience? And everyone in the entire universe has a right to his or her beliefs or non-beliefs, knowledge, assumptions, etc. etc. etc. We are all fallible. God fallible, I have no idea as we would be judging on human terms.

The heart has its reasons…for tis purpose one might call the Heart God.

And after having said all of this, I do know that my thinking can be flawed. But thoughts mus ramble and hearts must flow. :banana-dance:

Nice to talk to you again Kris. don’t be a stranger.

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In defense of those properties and about the argument from evil (as a variant that includes Hitler) it can be said that God gave us free will and does not interfere at all. Another thing that can be said if one wants to defend God’s direct intervention, is that there can be morally sufficient reasons to allow evil in the world, which we can’t understand because we can’t see the big picture. It could even be logically impossible for us to understand the reasons for suffering if those reasons have a purpose. If I know that God is allowing suffering in my life so that I might do the right thing in some event two years from now, that very knowledge might prevent the good consequences of past suffering to actualize.

I personally think that the most persuasive argument is appealing to free will which can be justified by the very purpose of creation. If God wants humans to enter in a voluntary loving relationship with him, free will is necessary.

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[b]I, in my own limited, human opinion and logic, find it hard to believe that God sacrifices well-being for free love and devotion, or that the two is even logically connected. In my view, evil, as a part of the omniscient mind of God, is an indestructible yet transient (not a logical contradiction: it cannot be destroyed while it lasts, but it eventually fades or transforms)aspect of God that God cannot directly remove or obliterate. It isn’t a direct “lesson-teacher”, as if that was its only merit. What is learned, then, by most of the world’s population stuck in some of the most deplorable situations and tragedies?

J.[/b]

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Hearts and thought must indeed do just that, I agree everyone has the right to follow their own. My one question to your reply is : Why should we not judge with human terms? They are the tools we have. It is comparable to saying that no we should not use a dime to tighten that screw, it is obvious that slot was designed with another tool in mind. There is no tool at present. So let the screw alone or tighten it with what you have? I have heard it said many many times on these forums that we should not use the tools we have because we are merely human and so we should not use it for things that are meant for something else. OK maybe I am a bit of a pragmatic or I see a job that needs to be done so I do it so that I may move on. or maybe its because a dime works just as well as a missing screwdriver.

To judge another species that is sentient is just a tool to learn. What if we are supposed to learn this way? It makes sense does it not? We have been handed a set of tools to figure out our universe, shouldn’t we use them? Why hestitate, guess have faith pray or wait? I tried praying that a poop filled backed up toilet would not require my hands to reach down in there and pull out a hot wheels car… But well I had to use what I had. If I had waited for a prayer to be answered,our house would have filled with poop water…Girrrrrrlllllll Uh uhh nope no way that is just way nastier.

LOL We have to use what we have to learn our universe and its secrets. If we say to wait, then we learn nothing. You can’t have answers handed to you and actually learn. you have to get in there and work for it.
As I have been composing this post ,I just pulled on a kitten pee filled tennis shoe. Life can be full of useful ironies, darn shame I did not pay attention :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :banana-dance: :banana-dance:

PG, we learn from others that have lives filled with tragedy, we do if we listen well and pay attention. We learn to be grateful, we learn to help , we learn to live, if we pay attention and perhaps we learn how to avoid such things in the future… Nahhh, that would be too easy. :laughing:

Listening observing and thinking are the hallmarks of hunters, successfull ones. Amazing we were designed to be such creatures. Happenstance or design??? To find the answer requires a hunter. Humans are evolving away from being successful hunters.