The following prophetic* passage can be applied to any individual pursuing any honorable vocation or avocation:
Wa, wa wa…What a cry baby…Some people do not accept any government; and I would prefer not one that is a dictatorship of the majority, but I much prefer it to dicatorships of the minority, or oligarchies, plutocracies, Best of all is a democracy in the fullest sense of the word, and then, as I would say any day, more heads are better than few… What is the alternative, to let every person be his own boss… Well why not, if what they do has no negative effects on others…That should be the standard…Everyone frre to do anything they will with their business, but only if it has no injury to others… Doing Brain surgery is one of those things with a great potential for injury… Some one should be concerned…
Wa, wa wa…What a cry baby…Some people do not accept any government; and I would prefer not one that is a dictatorship of the majority, but I much prefer it to dicatorships of the minority, or oligarchies, plutocracies, Best of all is a democracy in the fullest sense of the word, and then, as I would say any day, more heads are better than few… What is the alternative, to let every person be his own boss… Well why not, if what they do has no negative effects on others…That should be the standard…Everyone frre to do anything they will with their business, but only if it has no injury to others… Doing Brain surgery is one of those things with a great potential for injury… Some one should be concerned…Ideally, medicine is a form of relationship between doctor and patient…For many reasons, but often for the incompetence or quakery of Doctors, people appealed for governement to stand with them and make medicine a concern of government…
clearly the doctor in question is an idiot. What he suggest is NO government intervention
in medical matters of any kind. To allow doctors complete autonomy even to the point of
allowing doctors complete amnesty from criminal prosecution. That ladies and gentlemen
is insanity. Doctors must be held accountable for their actions just as all of us is held
accountable for our actions.
Kropotkin
Correct…We pay for them for their knowledge, and to first do not harm…Heroic medicine, innovation, or experimentation belong to science per se…Medicine is an article of commerce that like religion often preys upon the disturbed and hysterical among us… These should both be standardized and regulated…
Accountability is an entirely separate issue from that of fundamental individual right to liberty; the ability to exercise one’s mind and earn a living as you, the individual, decides how best to achieve it. The doctor makes no reference receiving amnesty from criminal prosecution. The doctor simply asks for the same rights as any business owner or employed worker to decide where, for how much and for how long they will work.
What you fail to grasp, is that socialized medicine is a weak form of indentured servitude. Doctors, who are arguably the most necessary and most educated in civilized society, expend more effort, time, money and general sacrifice in pursuit of their chosen field than we laymen can possibly imagine. You sir, would then have the doctors, who have spent 15 years working towards a single objective, work under your terms, for your wage, where you decide.
By what “right” do you claim to be their masters?
There is no justification for the subjugation of one group of individuals to the will of other individuals.
Knowledge does not exist until it is learned and applied. The knowledge and skill obtained by doctors through rigorous training belongs to the individuals who seek and obtain it. It does not belong to some disembodied, fantasy called: science. Only individuals can “own” anything - from a philosophical position of liberty - the same philosophy that underpins the Constitution.
Your fears about medicine preying on the disturbed and hysterical among us as justification for “control” are completely unsubstantiated. I’m sure we can both pick a few anecdotal incidents from history to support either side. Fortunately, anecdotal reference does not lend support to either side in a debate. Only reason can do that. To justify the subjugation of doctors to your “collective” heel would require a belief that doctors, once trained and certified through their own sweat and blood, somehow become “less” than equal human beings to the rest of us. So, if that’s what you believe, just say so.
There is an excuse for not doing so; but the justification is clearly on the side of the majority…
America is a republic, not a “pure democracy” subject to the tyrannical whims of whatever elected majority exists. The democratically elected representatives were Constitutionally put their to specifically protect individual rights. The Constitution states (in a way) that the legislatures can not vote away any individual rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
However, what you appear to be advocating, is that a simple democratic majority can somehow - by some “imagined” right of “mob rule” - vote away the individual rights of doctors? The best and most needed among us?
Tyranny of the majority is something the founding fathers specifically referenced on a number of occasions. Democracy is important, but must be constitutionally limited such that society does not break down into mob rule.
Peter Kropotkin"]clearly the doctor in question is an idiot. What he suggest is NO government intervention
in medical matters of any kind. To allow doctors complete autonomy even to the point of
allowing doctors complete amnesty from criminal prosecution. That ladies and gentlemen
is insanity. Doctors must be held accountable for their actions just as all of us is held
accountable for our actions."
D: Accountability is an entirely separate issue from that of fundamental individual right to liberty; the ability to exercise one’s mind and earn a living as you, the individual, decides how best to achieve it. The doctor makes no reference receiving amnesty from criminal prosecution. The doctor simply asks for the same rights as any business owner or employed worker to decide where, for how much and for how long they will work.
K: Read the doctor’s statement again. What does he say: “I quit when medicine was placed under State control, some years ago,” said (the Doctor).
Every single business owner faces the exact same thing. Businesses are regulated by the state (given what crooks they are, clearly under regulated)
You have, in no particular order, OSHA, minimum wage laws, employee’s with disabilities act, employee protection items such as clearly defined
working hours and overtime statues, and laws about food in restaurants just to name a few laws protecting consumers. Do we abolish those laws
because they interfere with an business owner right to make money?
D: What you fail to grasp, is that socialized medicine is a weak form of indentured servitude. Doctors, who are arguably the most necessary and most educated in civilized society, expend more effort, time, money and general sacrifice in pursuit of their chosen field than we laymen can possibly imagine. You sir, would then have the doctors, who have spent 15 years working towards a single objective, work under your terms, for your wage, where you decide.
K: Indentured servitude? That is just a nice sounding GOP talking point which is far from the truth.
You are suggesting doctors get special treatment because they are doctors. We happen to be friends with doctors,
they are educated in medicine, but the most educated? In one word, no.
Doctors must (and most of them do recognize)the fact that they are
in charge of people’s health. because of this fact, they must be held more accountable, not less than the average business owner.
Because it is not just a business, it is people’s lives we are talking about, life and death. That fact alone changes the nature of their “business”.
and demands greater scrutiny.
D: By what “right” do you claim to be their masters?
K: I don’t claim to be antibody’s master. I simply want some basic protections. I should be able to walk
into a restaurant and expect a meal that won’t harm me. I should be able to buy products that do what they are advertise to do.
I should have protection at work from harmful material and work reasonable hours. I should be able to walk
into a doctors office, or for that matter any health professional office and expect some protection .
I think you are missing the point about doctors. Remember I know some and why do you think they went into medicine?
For big money? No, they are quicker and more fool proof methods of making money instead of medicine. NO, doctors go into
medicine to heal. They want to be of service to help people. the money is not why they go into medicine, one of my wife’s friend was
an emergency room doctor and she said after the hours they put in and the pay they got, she was making less than minimum wage.
She now teaches at some university. The problem she said is many fold. First, the system is clearly messed up. There biggest
complaints is not about the government, but about HMO’S and the like. Those are the real drivers of how screwed up the system is.
They decide on who gets what surgery and what pills and what procedures get done, not the government. When I was hurt in 2006,
they decided what pills I could get and how many even though I was in mucho pain. This is typical of a patients experience.
The HMO’'S and insurance companies decided who, what, how, why and how many, not the doctor and not the patient.
Kropotkin
I’ve told you why government shouldn’t be allowed to interfere with individuals and business - doctors just happened to be the subject of this particular OP. I stated reasons that resonate directly with the philosophy of liberty… on which America was founded. Tell me… on what principle or right do you believe government has to regulate business?
Nice sounding GOP talk? I’m Canadian and I live in the Caribbean. Your republicans and democrats are two sides of the same coin. They all falsely believe that they can interfere in the lives of individuals at will – in flagrant disregard for the Constitution to which they all claim to defend. It’s a tragic comedy.
No. I am suggesting that doctors are individuals and deserve all of the rights and protections afforded to them under the Constitution. They are not your servants – any more than your garbage man is your servant. They provide a service – the most valuable of all services in civilized society. Yet you claim they should serve your “needs” simply because you “need” them. By what right do you make such a claim?
This paragraph alone reflects the shocking decline in civil society - not just America. You, a (likely) well educated individual, believe that your health is someone else’s responsibility — not yours. Every individual has the constitutional right to earn a living. Doctors are not servants of the State - are they? No. No more than you or I. They have chosen to pursue what makes them happy (pursuit of happiness) and in turn, make a living (right to life). How they do this is their decision (liberty). Since you falsely believe that your health is the responsibility of the doctor and not you… you believe it becomes your right to deny the doctor’s right to life and liberty as referenced above.
So you will force doctors to work under your terms - as you see fit. Whether you “claim” to be their masters or not… your actions speak to the contrary. Reality is reality whether you imagine it or “intend” it otherwise.
Your life story is irrelevant - though quaint. I’m a well educated professional. I went to school with, and even lived with, a number of guys who are now medical doctors themselves. They went into medicine because they felt that’s where their interests and aptitudes could be best applied. Many doctors travel and work for free – learning and helping as they can. However, when their age catches up to them… and they want to raise families and get more out of their life… they expect to make money. As individuals, you would have them work as “society’s” slaves… again, I ask, what principle or right makes you believe you can subjugate them this way?
I get the impression you believe that HMO’s and insurance companies have traditionally worked under a “free market” environment, yes? Have you ever actually done any reading on how much control and regulation exists at both the federal and state level in the USA? I suggest you read up on precisely how “free” your insurance industries really are…
Again - read up on how and why the situation is the way it is. It is so far from free and unregulated, I think you’d be surprised. The majority of the propaganda that passes for media (both left and right) in America these days never seems to look beyond the popularly held beliefs about what and how the medical insurance markets work. As a responsible adult… tell me you’ve done your own research on something this critical. I mean, as you said… this is life or death… isn’t it?