A new light on Death

I’m an atheist firstly, and secondly it has nothing to do with being a god or any of that, it is just interesting to think about it all, like with your mind man, you know? That thing inside your head? Where we use it to question interesting things?

The consciousness is a product of the brain. There’s no reason to think otherwise. Yes it’d be lovely if our minds can go all these places after death, because its not a product of the brain, but unfortunately again, there’s no ground to stand on here. Wishful thinking. Who wouldn’t want it to be that way? But reality isn’t welcoming to fantasy like this. You need reason, and in philosophy we provide reasons. Psychology explains all the things you mentioned above as far as what you thought were reasons for this. Consciousness is obviously a product of the brain, but people want it to be something more. So they start believing its something more because it makes them feel good, then they start building philosophies off their belief and cozy warm feeling inside. Their mind then floats away into the sky never to be grounded in reality, as it were, ironic isn’t it? That’s a metaphor in case you didn’t catch it.

Well then how are some other living things able to be conscious without having a brain? How does that work exactly if it is completely physical and chemical.

Neural networks?

There’s no evidence of anything being conscious without a brain. There is evidence that plants can react to sunlight and such, but that is not consciousness - it is a reaction. Somewhat of a basic chemical reaction compared to the brain. Which we can think of a much more complex reaction that results in what we perceive as consciousness, an abstraction of all those chemical reactions coming to produce our perception. Can a plant perceive sun? Perhaps on a very primitive level of what would be tantamount to us being unaware. In that our skin burns because of the sun, a plant may move to the sunlight because of the sun.

We all should understand what consciousness is here, consciousness is to the brain as strength is to our muscles. Consciousness is an abstraction just as strength is, to describe characteristics of the physical (muscle, brain) that lead to an abstract entity (mind, strength). A culmination of all our sensory organs, sight, touch, taste, smell, coupled with the processing and remembering power of the brain leads to our perception. Yes the mind is far more complex than the abstraction of strength, but so what?

Well if it is all physical based off of our senses then what is astral projection? Another way of creating reality inside your mind? I am still curious how people end up in the same place taking DMT though and how it cures addiction. DMT is already naturally produced in the brain for dreaming and I have heard that it also released in a huge amount when you die. What is the significance of these things?

Haven’t people watched energy leave a dying person already? Or floating away or something along those lines? Is this just heat leaving the body?

See the difference between me and the religious is I am not wishful thinking, I don’t care if we die even if we just cease to exist, I don’t care if there is or is not a hell. What separates my wonder from theirs is it doesn’t stem from fear, it stems from curiousity (as gib put it in the other thread) for the absolute truth regarding death, I may never get there but it is still interesting to view other possibilities.

Artimas,

I wouldn’t be so sure of that Artimas, unless I’m misunderstanding your notion of “reality”.
Can you define what YOU (note I emphasized YOU) mean by reality?

We all come from different historical places, have different human experiences, sensate and interpret things differently, have different chemicals to degrees floating around in our brains, read different books, are influenced by different people ~~ how can everyone’s reality “be” in the same place?

I suppose the answer to your question would be based on each individual and their capacity to delay gratification; namely, not commit suicide because they were equally enjoying their existence in the hear and now.

Even whole-hearted Christians who see a heaven and believe that heaven is where they are going after death still be interested in living this life…despite how wonderful they see their afterlife.

Oh I mean through DMT reality. Like when people take DMT then wake up they always describe the same place, the same type of art work, the same problems being fixed by entities that they encountered

What you said here “We all come from different historical places, have different human experiences, sensate and interpret things differently, have different chemicals to degrees floating around in our brains, read different books, are influenced by different people ~~ how can everyone’s reality “be” in the same place?”

That is hugely part of it all, the bigger picture. Everyone is different and in different places, “realities” while they experience life. There IS a reason for that and what I believe that reason might possibly be is to experience different experiences. The universe does not allow for exact copies, from what I can tell, there will always be a small detail changed. The reason is for expansion. I don’t know how many times I have to say this until people understand but quite literally we are the universe experiencing and exploring itself in physical form, and by doing such progresses in it’s expansion. It’s the micro to the macro, the universe is not just expanding through space from the “Big bang”.

Now that I explained that, that’s why we’re here on this thread, to talk about a possibility of what death could be and why it might be that way if it is, which I explained in the OP.

It seems most forget that energy does not cease, it changes. Death does not stop energy, it would just change it.

Yes, energy will probably exist forever.

Look at the rectangles in the following picture:

leben_materie_enrgie.jpg
Jahre: Years.

BLUE: life on the Earth (maximal).
YELLOW: life in the universe (maximal).
GREEN: black holes in the universe (maximal).
GREY: matter in the universe (maximal).
RED: electromagnetic radiation (energy).

Energy is probably everlasting.


And most forget the subject/object-dichotomy.


Yea.

Concerning consciousness and the subject/object-dichotomy:

The objectivist says “the consciousness is a product of our brain”, but the subjectivist says “the consciousness is a product of my thoughts”.

That are two very much different statements.

Exactly, and the cycle plays off of energy. When we die our physical/condensed matter doesn’t just disappear, other living things grow off of it, using the nutrients and organic matter to sustain itself. Now for the energy of which is not condensed/physical we do not know what happens to it. That’s the cycle of living. The universe and earth recycle everything people, this is why it has survived so long, how it can survive so long, even through us it will survive. This place is a self correcting recycling mechanism, the universe is as well for that matter. It does not create waste.

There are things here that have happened that one can raise question about, psychology doesn’t explain everything because if it did people wouldn’t still be asking questions. We would know what death and all of these other phenomenal events are. Some claim we do know what death is, but what makes dying the ultimate experience is that NOTHING can tell you or explain to you what occurs after living, there are no spoilers, because a spoiler could make one see that life might not be as beautiful as one thinks, compared to death at least. So ceasing to exist is another guess as well. We can only look around and make estimations of what it could be. By what we can see while alive, there are many cycles, so why is it called “wishful thinking” or “pseudoscience” when trying to figure out if death is also one of those cycles.

The Universe is not obligated to make sense, but then we are the universe and we continue to try and make sense of it all.

I think consciousness could be both.

The brain is just the seat, what sits in that seat may be something entirely different and non physical.

It’s the same as a computer, we give it a brain, memory, cpu, etc. It is built out of physical parts/matter, but functions due to energy that is not so condensed. Take the energy away and it will not and can not function. It appears “dead” does it not?

We are nearly the same as computers, just organic and slightly different material. But it is all matter and energy.

Hi Kristy,

BUT if there is no life after death for us, the brain completely ceasing would necessarily mean cessation of energy for the organism. No?
A disconnect. Caput

But we don’t know that. No one does. If consciousness manifests somehow, if it even does at all, then it wouldn’t matter if it disconnected from body. What is astral projection and the likes then? DMT and everytime someone takes it they describe it the same, same art, etc. If we pay attention to how things are on earth and from what science has revealed of the universe it would seem to me that things recycle, a lot.

Sure the body decomposes but, the energy does not. Consider that our brain emits energy so much so that doctors can measure it. Does that electrical energy just poof go away or does it change or perhaps go into a receiver ? Artimas has a good point about recycle. Think about that and about how a CB radio emits and receives same as other gadgets we make. Biology would have developed similar. A herd running at full tilt turn and stays together without sound commands, same as a flock or a school of fish. How? Body language??? Possibly part but, it cannot be all. Ever feel a dangerous mind before the body presents itself?
If mental energy is strong enough it can remain in a unit. If man made signals can travel over distances , through weather and walls , why is it so hard to grasp that bio energy information can stay in a unit?
How about our youngest minds. Too many stories over the centuries of children describing a dead relative when that child has never seen even a photo of the person , from what I have read the descriptions are more about personality then physical. Even name comes in. Sure quite a bit can be explained by the toddler overhearing and having a great imagination. But, many accounts even defy that. What if living energy can feed a nonliving energy? Living brains emitting energy that can keep a soul in one unit. Crazy? Maybe but, just mull it about in your head how it could possibly work.

We send data through thin air to computers, but people are telling me when we die our data dies. How’s that even make sense. Just because we are no longer around to project our thoughts does not mean our thoughts/data do not exist anymore at all.

It isn’t “life” after death because then that defeats the purpose of life, but we can’t say it is completely ceasing to exist. Both sides are a bit extreme in their theories of after “life” and non-existence.

When will people understand that we are computers, literally. Just chemically and organic. Not the same grade of material but in a whole, yes… Matter.

No one said at all, Artimas. But when the brain shuts down and dies , where are those thoughts to go? Do they linger in the aether?
Does the software of our minds operate in the same way as a computer’s software? Sure, we can save our thoughts in books, in the memories of other people.
When a computer no longer works or functions correctly, what’s done with it? It usually gets thrown away. When we die, our brain loses its function. There is nothing more to be done with it.

We are LITERALLY computers, Artimas? Do computers replicate themselves and give birth to children? Can computers have a sense of wonder,can the spirit of a computer rise up in joy, can a computer be moved when it hears a wonderful symphony, can they dance around, can they hate, can they love, can they give thought to new original ideas on their own, can they make love? Sorry.
But we are NOT literally computers. :mrgreen:

Yes we are. Why do you think people are trying to put consciousness in computers, because a computer would do things even better than us. Our bodies are machines.

And
youtu.be/HNdlf5TavAU

We do not fully understand all of what a machine can do because we’re too afraid to invest fully in making them conscious, afraid of being outshined and exterminated, people have too big of ego and if that were “bred” into the machines as well, them carrying characteristics of us, … The creator of the AI, well it could be very disastrous.