A paradox in protecting beliefs from cultural appropriation

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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I’ve come across a rather fringe position. Most people of any given belief system don’t take this position, the vast majority in fact do not. But a very small minority seem to feel this way.

The position is that partcipating in certain practices or belief systems is cultural appropriation if you’re not from that culture, and specifically if you’re white. I’ve seen this in particular applied to Astrology and Hinduism, but again only on a small scale, it’s by no means a common position.

Now I’m sure there’s probably nobody here who would defend that position, so I’m not necessarily arguing against anybody here, just kind of throwing these thoughts out into the wind:

It occured to me that this take is paradoxical, because you cannot have this position without also claiming that these belief systems are false.

Hear me out. Most of us (though definitely not all of us) accept that we live in a shared reality and there are objective truths about this reality, objective truths that affect us all whether we acknowledge them or not. Take Gravity as a simple example - most people quite reasonably believe that Gravity is a real force that really exists in reality, really affects all matter all the time, and has always affected all matter whether you believe in it or not.

And if you accept all of those things - that gravity is objectively a fundamental part of all of our shared reality - it would be quite strange to hear someone say “Well Isaac Newton was a white English person, so only white english people get to use gravity to calculate things.” Right? That’s a bizarre statement - we all live in this reality, we all share it, so any objective truth about our shared reality, we all have an equal right to understand, regardless of our skin colour or cultural background. Gravity affects us all the same, so there should be no barrier that takes away someone’s right to understand and use the concept of gravity.

So then if someone believes in Astrology, if they believe it literally, then they believe it involves true forces of nature that really, objectively exist, and that it affects us all, just like gravity. And if that’s the case, then just like gravity, it would be bizarre to say that some people just aren’t allowed to believe in astrology - how can we not be allowed to believe in something that is an objective part of our shared reality? How could you say I’m not allowed to believe in a force of nature that’s literally affecting me?

The only way to claim it’s cultural appropriation, then, is to hold the position that it is not an objectively true part of reality, but is a completely cultural concept, invented by a culture but with no strong ties to reality.

So, some small amount of people want to defend these belief systems from white people. But in order to defend them, you must first destroy them. That’s the paradox.

That’s how it seems to me anyway.

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I put the notion down to immaturity, nothing more… anything more is giving unfounded/(because I say so) positions credence, which is not the basis for a sound and solid argument… well, not for me anyway.

Entertaining the idea of a concept or notion, doesn’t mean adopting that concept or notion, but simply means that you know that it exists… forewarned/forearmed etc. and so forth.

Philosophy not-proper, is full of very closed minds indeed.

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Anyone else wanna opine… along with mine?

…an interesting and very current topic, iyam.

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The concept of cultural appropriation (CA) is a racist project.
There are many aspects to human culture and they are available to all humans regardless of skin colour or any sense of “belonging”, or “identity”.
If an idea is a good one then we should all be free to adopt it. There is nothing in our genes to mandate any culture. There is nothing in our genes which mandates nationality or the ability to play a particular type of language of music, food, or literature.
Tell me what the world would be like if adopting democracy from ancient Greece was proscribed because of CA.
Where would we be in music if only black people were allowed to play jazz or rock.

CA and those that promote it are racists.

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Isaac Newton was perfectly happy to “appropriate” Astrology, and he wasn’t even Babylonian.
Culture grows mostly through appropriation, and more power to it.

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I think the issue of cultural appropriation came out of the inequities and exploitation of colonialism the consequences of which are still spinning out. Ideally it would be a conversations between rational actors in the situation. But, communication breaks down as the parties look out for their own (competing) interests.

I see this happening more frequently in the arts. But I’ve seen in religious turf battles too. For example, when the secular mindfulness industry spread the meditation practices that originated in Zen Buddhism. Some Buddhists applauded it, ( some encouraged it) others objected to it as appropriation. Unaflliated with any religious institution or secular practice group, I feel like I have no horse in that race. If people are benefitting from the practice, good! Same with martial arts, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, yoga, centered prayer, healing arts, etc.

I do see what you’re saying about racism, and I think that is part of the colonial/slavery legacy. Resentment breeds resentment. Segregation breeds segregation. The cycle of hatred continues. I’ve seen a lot of instances where these trends are overcome especially in the music world. But I’ve seen breakdowns and misunderstandings over it too.

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I was accused of religious appropriation once years ago on ILP. That was my first encounter with the idea and it took me a minute to figure out what my offense was. I think I was accused of appropriating Taoism cuz I’m not Asian. Something like that. The thing is I don’t know which of the major religions I could participate in without appropriating it. Biblical Christianity appropriates a religion of first century Palestinian Jews. Anybody have a problem with that?

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I think it could safely say that particularising specific religions within the framework of cultural factors is illustrated well, where the two intersected. Case at hand that became an obvious revolutionary trigger was the French monarchies system which coincided with the cultural-political ideal. Not that it has ever been a pretty standard paradigmn; but it is of late that the two sowed conflict and anarchy. To an extent don’t, the current situation between Russia also parallels this idea. by the Russian president invoking that connection overtly in the public eye. The US reaction appears to mirror this confidence gaining, inauthentic scheme.

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But again, to say you’re “appropriating” Taoism necessarily implies Taoism isn’t true. Because if it is true, then it’s true in this universe for everyone all of the time, in the same sense as gravity is true, and so it seems straight forwardly absurd to claim that even though it’s just an objective universal truth, you’re not the right color to have access to that truth.

Surely everyone has an equal right to access universal objective truths.

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Here’s a shockingly disturbing example of Cultural Appropriation…

youtube.com/watch?v=FfpBhTliPbs

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Cultural Appropriation is a political scam.

Use an analogy of Intellectual and Philosophical “appropriation”. You can copy-paste everything I’ve ever written. You can try to mimic and imitate my writing style all you like. But no amount of Mimicry will amount to an ounce of Understanding. Just because you’ve copied somebody else’s Recipe, for cooking, doesn’t mean you’ll cook that dish remotely well compared to the original Creator. Just because you dress in Germanic garb, doesn’t mean you understand why and how it came about. Just because you eat slugs or snails, doesn’t mean you’re anything like the French. It doesn’t mean that you’ve shared their long history of starvation and privation, which developed their taste for their cuisine. Or how Germans developed a taste for rotten, fermented onions.

My point is, somethings cannot be easily imitated because those things cannot be easily understood, to the Foreigner.

When it comes to Philosophy and Intellectual appropriation, try as you like, you need an intelligence equal to, or greater than, the original. Or you are simply playing with matches whose consequences you don’t understand, and sparking a fire that you clearly cannot control.

Let the masses “appropriate” as much as they want. It doesn’t mean they’ll learn from it. How many humans actually are capable of Empathy? (Very few.)

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Guilty. I’ve been playing in blues bands since I was 15.

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I get called out for appropriating my own inherited/hereditary cultural influences… now that’s not a paradox but an irony. They think I’m taking the micky, when I’m actually just doing me/being a sum of my triumvirate parts.

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Well this seems to be fairly one sided, and to be honest I think I’m in agreement with most everyone here…
But allow me to play devil’s advocate for a moment.

I think the idea is similar to that of plagiarism, but rather than on an individual level, applied in a tribal way.
That is to say if it’s practiced regularly, where you take credit for another tribes contributions and pass it off as your own, you can very easily end up with the perception that this other tribe is/was inferior to your own, which gets us closer to something like racism.

Now you may argue that any individual who adopts another tribes custom might be well aware of its origin and in no way intend to pass it off as their own design, but society as a whole, the tribe, if it were to become fashionable, might lose sight of its origin quite quickly and end up crediting it to one of their own early adopters… Elvis gets credit for rock and roll, for example… though he did not develop it.

That’s the argument I believe has the most merit, for why cultural appropriation is a bad thing.

It’s of course flawed, but only in that it makes the same mistake the racists do… which is to elevate the import of tribal relations above individual ones.
That is to say, you ought not give a damn what tribe anyone belongs to in the first place, but rather judge every person as an individual… therefor whether or not this influences how you judge tribes is unimportant, because the mistake was judging tribes in the first place.

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Yea… but you know it’s gone too far, when you’re accused of plagiarising from your own cultures.

Fair and valid points otherwise, tho @MMP…

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If “Cultural Appropriation” were ever a valid concept Astrology would have died out when ancient Babylon did. Instead it was sold all over the Roman Empire by charlatans looking to make a quick denarius.
Hinduism is itself a very complex series of cultural appropriations.

And if it were not for CA, we would not have the Beetles, the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin … and actualy nearly all music and art of any kind.

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Is it?

No-one here, or elsewhere, seems to know what ‘Hindu’ actually is… but I won’t be telling. :-$

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Oh. Of course you’re trolling again.

Hinduism has an actual trinity.

Creator: Vishnu

Protector: Krishna

Destroyer: Shiva

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Appropriation is failure to properly appreciate. Prevention of appropriation is excommunication. Protecting the integrity of the culture from outside corruption of it.

Prevention of proper appreciation, on the other hand, is racist (x-ist) exclusion. No justification for it. Especially if you dangle/flaunt your carrot, appropriate all their peas they try to trade in good faith, and mock them with failure to reciprocate. Gross.

Def shoulda went with chocolate.

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Was he, though?
webspace.science.uu.nl/~gent011 … newton.htm