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a. I don’t get chewing. I think its icky and gross and people who chew tobacco are quite un-kissable in my book.
b. Welcome back Monooq. I’ve haven’t seen any of your posts on the board in like… FOREVER!!!
yes, we can draw out whatever process of ‘kind-making’ (as in Hacking’s looping effects) of chewing tobacco. although i don’t want to subvert the actual philosophical discussion into a historical one just yet.
yea, i haven’t posted that much in a while. the regulars among our community don’t really talk about much interesting… some bullshit, some gossip, and some more gossip about pictures. hopefully this thread will spark a turn to the philosophical.
I think this could make a very interesting article. I recall a line in Being and Nothingness to the effect: ‘smoking the bowl of tobacco is the nihilation of the world.’
If you were to form an essay on this I wouold suggest following this MO (I’m speaking from experience on this, see my article “Philosophy of the Facial: what is the meaning of the facial cumshot” and many posts in “Pornography, philosophical or not?”):
- What is dip etc, you have already done this.
- ***What do (common) people say about dip? (Aristotle you recall suggested starting an inquiry this way).
- What is already said about dip by philosophers (Aristotle…). Try a search in Google for “dip philosophy” and also use a quote search engine on dip and it’s other names and associated terms.
- Look also at psychology which is a relative of philosophy. There ought to be lots there, “oral fixation” etc, etc.
4a. History of dip. Dip in literature… - What do you think about dip?
- Think about the core concepts of philosophy. How does dip intersect these?
Things that occur to me are: the spitting, it’s disgusting. Dip is organic. Dip is a narcotic. Dip is a friend or a crutch. Dip kills. Dip is for tough guys. What is the image of dip? Why did you start did? How did you start dip. That might make a good preface.
I highly suggest you write this article. Aim high, dip in art, dip use by religious persons, dip as a moment of God and so on. If you don’t write this article, no one will, so get on it.
Can’t wait to see this.
tobacco (as i take it in the larger sense of the word) has typically been discussed in a forum which obscures a more profound reason for tobacco’s popularity… i am referring to the current discourses in circles having to do with the health of the body. this dogmatism (i hasten to use that word and all its baggage) ignores, namely, tobaccco’s relation to the soul.
I want to do two things in this post, which will serve me to lay a foundation for the larger discussion, and hopefully, an essay resulting from it. I want to (1) discuss tobacco’s relation to the soul in a preliminary fashion, and (2) distance my topic (chewing tobacco) from other forms of tabacco.
Firstly, I should thank Gorgias, whos contributions to any thread are always stimulating and helpful. And whos “philosophy of the cumshot facial” should be required reading.
I hope will provoke some real philosophical interest… As the heyday of smoking passes into the ashheap of history, it is meet that we reflect on this connection, namely, of tabacco and the soul.
Long ago Plato suggested we consider the soul as divided into three parts; the appetitive, the spirited, and the rational. These correspond to three basic kinds of human diesires. Eventually, I’d like to see in what way a connection between dip can correspond to each part of the soul. Though I suppose at this point would be simplest to have dip correspond to the ‘appetitive’ part of the soul, which relates to the human desire to satisfy physical appetites. Eventually, I will connect dip to the human desires for recognition, and truth.
I should say here too, though I worry about jumping ahead, that for Plato, if something has a relation to the soul it has a relation to the city… and perhaps an analysis of political phenomena as it relates to dip will interest some of you.
chewing tobacco is thought to be a quintessentially subhuman activity, the rumination of bovine men. obviously, I want to argue against this. dip is thought to be camel like, chewing and spitting. in any case, this limited perspective is clear, it is a specific attack against any relation between dip and the rational part of the soul of man.
Nothing could be further from the truth, I for one, a fellow of above-average acumen, do dip on a regular basis (right now for example).
It is this same dull perspective that sees ‘pipe-smoking’ as a tell tale sign of the rational… and its relative decline as an outcome of the intellectual crisis in america.
I socialize in a community of philosophers not just here but in the real world. I see pipe smokers pandering to the latest activist fads and no more engaging in philosophical thought than me, or my fellow chewers. And ofcourse, america’s most famous pipe-smoker in the last thirty years has been hugh hefner, “pajama prophet of the trite philosophy of hedonism”.
I’ve pursued (albeit in a cursory fashion) Gorgias’ second recommendation “what do people say about dip”. typically, the passtime of tough guys, baseball players, and white trash. though i think i fit all of these categories, i think there is more to be said for dip itself.
Futhermore, I argue that the best way to distinguish dip from smoking tobacco, snuf, sheesha, marjiuana, and the like, is a thorough analysis of the character of the man who partakes of our subject matter. clearly, somebody who smokes a pipe does not do dip. ofcourse, i want to avoid essentialist notions about dip, and i don’t mean to be exclusionary, but i take this as a tenable assumption for the purpose of furthering discussion.
also, i was fascinated by that quote from Sartre. unfortunately, not having understood Being and Nothingness, at least not enough to do some worthwhile speculations, i can only wonder what it means.
Does ‘doing dip’ chemically affect the brain any more than say, smoking it?
good question.
in my experience, it does. if we look at the product packages, i suppose we could calculate more accurately… but i am very confident in my yes answer.
it seems to me that it gives you much more of a ‘head buzz’… which is interesting because tobacco is more than not a communal activity, it is thought to losen the tounge but without separating the tongue from the brain (such as marjiuana, weed, grass…). it seems to facilitate dialogue, and there is a sort of camraderie surrounding the practice. this would have interesting implications for intellectuals… because, at least in canada, smoking is banned indoors. ofcourse, dip isn’t. adn i regularly dip in philosophy lectures.
thank you for dipping Monooq, and for bringing up this topic, because i do it on a regular basis and im not your average image of someone who you would expect to dip, as i presume you probably are as well.
i agree with you that dipping does not make someone ‘subhuman’ as you stated, you just have to deal with how other people look at you while your doing it, but who cares about them.
im not dipping to look cool (most would agree it does not make you look cool)
im not dipping cause my all my friends do it (i make them do it)
im just dipping because i like to dip.
i know the health risks and ive been into it for about 2 years, but i hope that in the near future i will stop (im not trying to right now), because the truth is that you can get gum cancer as soon 6 months [of dipping]. if you choose to dip you need to keep [the rest] of your dental hygiene very good. try to avoid drinking [alcohol] and dipping at the same time because the alcohol actually makes ‘the bad stuff in dip’ worse on your gums when it combines with it, which means using alcoholoc mouthwash is a bad idea after you’ve dipped.
i know that it is kind of gross though, the spit and everything.
i try not to dip around girls though, cause they dont like that.
i have made a lotta girls dip though and i have to admit its a lot like jacking off, its fun while your doing it but when its over you feel kind of guilty. 
with my friends that dip though ive noticed that we’ve develop a sort of bond because of it.
everyone i meet that dips tends to be someone i like and not all of them are people that you would catagorize as ‘dippers’.
most people are really grossed out by it or just don’t like doing it (makes them throwup, feel sick, ect.), but for some reason certain people like to do it and im one of them, and mabye this is just the nicotine talking but dipping is awesome.
dip is like a wacky spice that i’ve added to my life.
6 months eh. So much for my trial! 
oh dont let that discourage you from tossin a lip in every now and then.
you keep good hygiene as a regular dipper and you should be fine for at least 8 years, or you could be fine for 15 years, or you could be fine for 30 years, eventually i assume you would lose a few teeth. however it is not definite that one will get cancer (or other gum disease), it depends on the person (and how clean they keep their mouth). but there is still is a good chance that you will eventually get cancer.
thats why im quitting.
I dipped and chewed for a while back when I was 11. I could buy it back then, isn’t that odd? Dipping was snuff, chewing or “chawing” was chewing tobacco. I stopped when I realised two things:
- It was a really disgusting habit.
- I no longer had any money to buy comic books or snacks.
Number two is a very effective argument to me and has kept me out of most vices. I’m just too cheap to get into them!
The things I held out for changed through the years; comic books and snacks became gasoline and dates became food and rent. Such is life!
QK
bebop, it would seem that we as a subculture share the common plight of a lack of recognition. and your health tips are well-taken.
you raise some interesting questions. you say girls don’t like it… i am well aware… i have been hiding it from my girlfriend for about a month or so. however, i have an eery suspicion that it may be the case that girls don’t like a guy dipping in the same way that they don’t like a guy with long hair and tatoos. do you see what i’m saying?
try cracking a lip around some bitches, and when you get one in the sac go straight for the shocker… that’s basically what i’m saying.
and yes, i agree completely, dipping is a wachy spice you add to the dullness of life.
how did you get into dipping when you where still sucking on your mother’s tit?
Mom didn’t seem to mind the stains, so everything was OK.
yeah, although its a little bit different.
dip and tattoos are a completely different matter with girls.
while some girls might think that a tattoo is cool or just like it for some other reason, or can ignore that the person has it cause they like them anyway.
most girls simply don’t like dip, and for the pure and simple reason of what you stated earlier, to them it seems ‘camel like’, the spitting and everything, they just find it revolting.
i guess some girls find tattos revolting too, but its much easier for girls to handle that stuff than it is for them to handle dip, dip is like in a class of its own.
i have girls that tell me “Please, don’t dip, its gross.”
i had another girls say to me and my friend “You both are so cute, but then you have to go and put that stuff in your mouth.”
but dipping doesn’t really get in the way of getting girls, unless your stupid about it. i mean you dont start talking to a girl and then toss a lip in, thats just stupid.
but even after a girl has seen you with a dip in and watched all of your camel-like spitting, as long as you don’t act like a redneck and shit, once you take it out (the dip that is), then you still have a viable chance with the girl (at least where I come from in Sarasota, Florida). I’m sure up north or in different countries girls might have a completely different view on it and may shun all forms of guys that dip.
really though, people that know me tend to accept it, and don’t really put me into that ‘sub-culture’ because they know me.
you know what pisses me off though, is that people will say dipping is gross and then smoke a ciggarette. in my opinion dipping is way cleaner then putting that pesticide ridden, toxic shit into your lungs and then smelling like an ashtray everywhere you go.
this is where i want to diverge from you. i think you have internalized a hegemonic aesthetical code which serves the interests of parties whos real project is political. your subject-identity is fallen on rocks by misrecognition. we need to look at the social construction of dip, why the practice is being viewed this way… while more and more women smoke cigars because for some fucking reason it is dignified, or a sign of success, or something like that. hogwash.
one time i was sitting in the mall with a friend, and we were just cracking a lip, and he popped the tin, leaned back, packed the pinch, and said to me something i will never forget… he said, “ah, thats the stuff dreams are made of”. i laughed at great length.
a philosophy of chewing tobacco is my new minor project, and i find that i can not find any reference point or axis from which to work and theorize except for when i am actually having a dip. which is strange because it is almost as if the dip guides my consciousness and is the key to memory idea realms that are not open otherwise. it is not so much that all of the sudden that i recall philosophical ideas i’ve read or heard, but something else. i’m not sure what.
i’m reminded now of Plato’s chariot… which is something like a metaphor for Plato’s idea of the soul. the chariot is lead by two horses, which correspond to the appetitive part of the soul, and the spirited part of the soul. given the previous connection between teh appetitive part of the soul and dip that i wanted to sketch, and how plato characterizes this horse… one way we can look at this horse is as a camel, spitting and chewing. the chariot is led by the rational part of the soul driving ofcourse. but Plato’s chariot and the tripartite division doesn’t depict what i think is essential about what we talk about when we talk about the soul… that these parts aren’t so divided at all. i don’t want to privilege the rational over the appetitive, nor the opposite as hume does. somehow they’re the same force.
Looks like you are well underway.
I hope you can bring this all together into an article. If you don’t, I doubt it will be written otherwise. Seems to be quite a bit more interest in the topic even than might have first been expected.
well, ill attempt that, but im not sure if ill hit any areas we havnt already discussed.
chewing tobbacco has its origins in cowboys of the old west.
it started out with chew, which is entirely different from snuff (dip).
im to lazy to do the research but eventually what we call dip was put into production and it was very popular among ‘outdoors’ men types and farmers and cowboys. basically what people would refer to as hicks.
it all comes down to stereotyping.
most people have an image of ‘hicks’ as people who drive trucks and live on farms and chew tobbacco. rough, rude, and crude, and not always well kept.
before dip actually become popular among college age boys and high school age boys it was always connected directly to the ‘hick’ stereotype.
it is hard to detach it from that stereotype when it is true, most people that dip tend to look more like what people define as the stereotype.
they drive trucks, and they look rough.
to women this man (the ‘hick’) is disgusting, dip is directly related to that, and thus dip is disgusting.
if other people dipped, like say the majority of people who dipped looked more like the majority of people that smoke, then the view of dip would be much different.
because it is such a ‘sub-culture’ people don’t know a lot about it, and when they see that wet, black clump of crud as a dippers about to toss a lip in, they connect it to all of those things, and say “Eww, thats gross”
now i do find something special about dip, but i dont think i can relate to what exactly you are talking about, but it is very interesting that you have connected such a ‘sub-culture’ and seemingly ‘benign’ thing to something as intellectual as philosophy.
but i cant really comment on the ‘soul connection’ because im not really sure if i believe in the soul, and im not sure if i can understand the soul if it exist.
but assuming the soul exist and assuming my understanding of the soul is rational.
dip is like the food for your soul in the same way that music is like the food for your soul, in the same way that art and creative thought are food for your soul.
is that what you mean?
bebop… very interesting.
i specifically find interesting how you draw out in what manner dip came to be perceived as ‘gross’, and situate dip’s social evolution in a historical context. it suggests that there may be nothing intrinsically ‘gross’ about spitting, on the floor or in a cup. it meets with my suspicion that aesthetic reactions are cultural/social constructs, and not natural phenomena.
i’m somewhat disappointed the history of dip doesn’t extend back further, much further, the aztecs or vikings or something like that, conducted in religious ceremonies… such as is the case with smoking. however, perhaps it is understandable that dip should be a relatively new phenomenon… what with techonology and so on.
yea, its a vauge loaded word. one thing is for sure, i don’t mean it in a metaphysical, religious sort of way. but yea, dip is food for the soul like music, i’d agree with that.