A host of factors, some of which we can easily identify, and some of which we are not even slightly aware of, are constantly affecting our lives therefore causing us to act in the way we do. That or something along those lines is the definition of determinism.
Say, for example, that someone commits suicide. Is there any solace whatsoever in trying to explain to the people affected by that, that perhaps that was how this individual was destined to die?
For me, no. I have an on and off falling out with my mother on this issue. Apparently, when it comes to suicide (!) many people believe it to be deterministic–there is nothing we can do. But I think we miss the point when we admit that there are things that are determined in our existence. Fundamental things, yes. But there are also variables—some are more desirable than others.
( One never really recovers from suicide of a loved one. )
Perhaps not destined for suicide, but destined to come to these crossroads and have to choose. Free will in a way, but these paths may already be pre-determined and they simply have to pick from the bunch.
As for solace in the thought that this persons suicide was bound to happen, I do not think this is so. It would just lead me to wonder what kind of factors I played a role in to bring about such an inevitablity.
Marie, wouldn’t you agree, presented with the exact same situation and all the prior events leading up to that point where this particular individual commits suicide, that out of all these “variables”, that the exact same choice would be made, if the whole situation was to keep repeating itself?
Shadow and Light,(with respect to your crossroads theory) Isn’t your ultimate choice still influenced by antecedent factors?
Have you guys watched Minority Report? I think thats what I’m picking up from both of your responses, the same concept from the movie. It seems as if y’all are insinuating that determinism, as sound as it is, doesn’t necessarily hold water all the time. That there are some loopholes.
Yes, but only if we put it in the context of “possible worlds”. For us to be where we are, right here, right now, the world must be as it is, exactly as it is. You change one iota of this world and you get the movie “Butterfly Effect” (yes, I have seen Minority Report, can’t remember now the details, lol ).
But somehow, not leaving the house at nine in the morning, but waiting an hour later, maybe two hours would have made a world (no pun intended) of difference. This plays in one’s mind over and over again, and he or she begins to think that there could have been something that could stop one thing to break the “whole situation”.
But see, you want to use the “whole situation” over again. And this is where the difference should be. To debunk determinism, perhaps we might want to get rid of the notion of “if we repeat the whole situation, with all events leading up to this event…” Not fair.
To believe, like I do, that there are variables we could play with, such that we make other possible worlds come about, we must also believe that the sequencing of events differ.
…I am droning on…
Yes the ultimate choice would be influenced by outside factors, but not neccessarily owned by them.
I actually made a thread about free will a bit ago and it was lost in the sea of about 1000000 other similar threads. 
In actuality where i stand on determinism and free will has a tendency to alter each day. Some days I feel like im just a robot being manipulated by the universe, and other days I just know I can do anything I want to do and change the world.
Perhaps because I do see determinism as probable. Yet I also see that although we are led to our end, we still have the choice to jump. And then face whatever path that choice determined for us.
Mcgrady001 wrote:
I realize that this question wasn’t presented to me but I would just like to state my opinion anyway. I can only agree with you on one level, that if all these variables occured, and they occured to that same particular individual then yes nothing would change. But what if all those exact same events happened to someone else. It is not likely that they would have the same experience. I think it really gets into, the human experience, and how our experience shapes our lives. Do we have enough evidence to assume that if two human beings were introduced to the exact same stimuli throughout their lifetime that they would have the exact same views on life, and make the exact same decisions? I don’t believe so.
Oh, say it ain’t so. (It is my brother I think about). I still believe that things could have been different and it wouldn’t have happened. I have read that suicide is one of those events in which 6 factors must be present at the moment someone contemplates it so that it happens. Change or remove one of these variables, and the attempt fails. I may have forgotten the exact details of these 6, but three of those, if I remember correctly, are being given the place to do it, being alone, having the “right†set of mind. I don’t know the name of that book, or its author.
Marie Wrote:
Good point, Marie. So, this being the case, a person would still commit suicide if all the prior events that had already ocurred in the world, all leading up to that point where he had to make that choice, were to repeat itself (including those 6 variables that you mentioned, by the way, I wish you had more info. on this).
Shadow and Light, are you therefore a compatiblist?
illativemindindeed, in the general scheme of things, you do agree that, yes indeed, an individual would commit suicide if all the events, not only with respect to him but also the rest of the universe, were to ocurr. (correct me if this is not what you’re trying to imply)
I wish I had kept that info. But going back researching and finding answers as to why would be like revisiting that day. For months after that sad day, I had vivid dreams of him coming back, entering the front door of the house, and entering my bedroom to wake me up. At one point, in one of those dreams, I actually asked him what could I have changed in the last few hours so things would be different. Can you believe this? Talking determinism to a dead brother in my dream !!
You know i never took the time out to think about it, but yes I suppose I am in many ways.
I just know that ‘choice’ is a process, and ideas and decisions have to come from some influences.
My mom used to say that one should never fight with fate. Now I’m much older I respect that and I feel one should follow that but only within certain conditions. If something doesn’t give in life for a long time despite the fact that you keep trying, then you should let fate take its course because you’ll be much happier if you did that. It may not be true but I believe that now. However, there is ambiguity about what is fate and what comes from this very life, therefore, we must try to change the things that make us unhappy, keeping in mind others’ feelings and rights of course, because we cannot know what is fated and what is not unless it becomes long-term. Therefore we have to keep trying until we perceive that it is fate. That is why they say in life that we must, “keep trying.”
As for your stuff on Nietzsche, it is incomplete and so misleads. Nietzsche I think also said that, ‘it is useless to try and attempt the impossible’ and he suggested that one should not try and do that. And where you say that, “Enlightenment cannot be described, only experienced,” who says that? My dear, if someone is truly enlightened, I’m sure they’ll find a way to describe it. It’s the people who haven’t tasted salt but pretend that they did, who can’t describe the taste of salt because you would have to know the taste to describe it, which they don’t! Boy! I’m in a very bad mood today, I’m going to go take a break.
heh control of our own fate = ESP = I can use my concious mind to alter the universe in a way that i choose!
Thats essentially what anyone who doesnt believe in determanism is saying. If not, they they are at least saying that us humans have no say in the variablity of our actions in the universe, and that choice is still an illusion.
:lol: