A question of faith

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

and here we talk about one of the great curses of
the modern world, that of faith… not of religion,
but of faith…

Faith is usually, usually thought of in terms of religion…
but faith is faith in any ism or ideology that we might hold…
the MAGA party is a party of faith… and IQ45 is its messiah…

and conservatives hold it a matter of faith that the best
government is the smallest government… and that taxes
are bad and there is a right and wrong in the cultural wars…
gays and transgender people are wrong, straight married people
are right…these are taken as a matter of faith…and because
they are a matter of faith, there are no facts or evidence, that will
convince them otherwise…

as this matters I mentioned are questions of faith, they are
questions of religion… and to hold to the evilness of government
is a question of faith, not facts… it is a religion…nothing more…

but Kropotkin, what about liberals? what about them?
most liberals I know are in favor of reform, of moving to
perfect isms and institutions… in other words, government
can always be improved, institutions can always be improved…
we can always do better…defenders of change are not
defenders of faith… if we believe, as we do, that change
is necessary to improve government, institutions, and even
people…that does not speak to having faith… for faith
is quite happy with the way things are… or perhaps,
perhaps the defenders of faith hope, hope that things will get
better, but that is faith, and if I want an institution or an ism,
to be better, to want change is not faith… to work for change,
that is not faith in action…

Tantum religio Potuit saudere Malorum…

and this becomes my point about faith…
that faith has driven human beings to commit evil,
on a rather large scale… the Holocaust came about from
faith, not a religious faith, but faith nevertheless…for faith
denies doubt, uncertainty, ambiguity, skepticism…
and to kill millions of Jews requires faith that it is being
done for all the ‘‘right’’ reasons…

and the hallmark of our modern age is doubt, and uncertainty
and ambiguity…the conservative proclaims time and time again,
that part of the failure of the modern age is this lack of faith…
that part of the failure of the modern age is its doubts,
uncertainty, and ambiguity… that a lack of faith has
weakened us…

but faith is the assumption that one already holds the
truth in hand… but I for one, deny that I hold the truth
in my hands…for I have said, time and time again,
what is your truth? not a capital TRUTH, but in little
personal truths… that for me, we are chasing
justice, not freedoms, that all men/human beings
are created equal, (which is justice) that our current
isms are a failure…and I have spent some time
showing these truths of mine, to have some wider
currency… accept or don’t accept… that is your
choice…

I have changed my own personal political/economic
beliefs over my lifetime… three different times, I have
dramatically change my own personal beliefs…
from moderate democrat, to being an anarchist,
to being a liberal… faith is anti-choice, that we cannot
change our own personal beliefs because faith requires
a total engagement with our beliefs… all or nothing
is the demand of faith…

so, what philosophical beliefs are a matter of faith?

Kropotkin

2

I have to admit I skipped to the end so that I did not have to read all the choppy stuff.

You could know something is true but it doesn’t mean you trust it. For example, some atheists say that even if God exists, they wouldn’t trust him. They would not call themselves theists. They don’t want God to exist. Despite intellectually accepting the existence of God. their belief is mere intellectual acceptance, not the trust meant by the word faith. Then, besides intellectual acceptance and trust, there is action. The action part is the one Kierkegaard was all about in “Works of Love” — and the authenticity he meant by truth’s subjectivity. What James also meant by faith without works being dead.

Do we agree that all philosophical beliefs that have zero (or less than zero) impact on how we live our lives are empty…the opposite of true philosophy?

If we agree, can you please stop writing posts that are seriously choppy? Be kind to your readers.

3

I
am
sorry that you

are unable to read choppy po…sts…

I agree… that it

creates difficulties for

m
y

readers but I have faith
that some of them have
the

intellectual capacity

to overcome

this…

I
a
m

s
o
r
r y

K r o p o t k i n

4

The heavens declare the Glory of God.

Faith has nothing to do with believing this or that; it is about inner loyalty and Glory, as it is in the heavens, so it must be in the inner man. This is the kind of faith you would never mock, as it does indeed move mountains.

Change wrought by humans is of necessity completely ephemeral - reshuffling a deck of cards does nothing to change that it’s a deck of cards. Nor does it make the deck “progress” anywhere. It’s perhaps the greatest of modern delusions that all change leads to progress. Why could it not lead you to abject degeneration, instead? What if malicious change leads you there on purpose, along the primrose path of wonderful sentiments?

-WL

5

Weary.Locomotive:
The heavens declare the Glory of God.

Faith has nothing to do with believing this or that; it is about inner loyalty and Glory, as it is in the heavens, so it must be in the inner man. This is the kind of faith you would never mock, as it does indeed move mountains.

Change wrought by humans is of necessity completely ephemeral - reshuffling a deck of cards does nothing to change that it’s a deck of cards. Nor does it make the deck “progress” anywhere. It’s perhaps the greatest of modern delusions that all change leads to progress. Why could it not lead you to abject degeneration, instead? What if malicious change leads you there on purpose, along the primrose path of wonderful sentiments?

K: and all human action is ephemeral…
seeking out wealth, or power or fame or titles are
all ‘‘ad hoc’’ of the moment… and at no point did I say that
‘‘change will lead to progress’’… change is change… and the
one constant in the universe… nothing, but nothing remains
the same… this moment is different than the last moment…
it is change… I am one second older… and that is change…
and that doesn’t suggest progress… progress is another
animal altogether … and one I am at this moment working out…

Kropotkin

6

No no no. That’s much worse. K bye.

7

let us think about the coming crisis that will strike
when we learn of aliens from space…
and let us tie that into religions…

the question becomes, do aliens have religions and a god?
a gross superstition that has infected humans, but has it
infected aliens? I would guess no… and it is even worse
if the answer is yes… let us start with the yes, what if
aliens have religions and a god… as with the English
and the Spanish, when they discovered the new world,
and they pushed the religions of the invaders onto
the inhabitants of the new land…

and what if the aliens did the exact same thing… believe
in our gods, in our religions or face extinction…
for that is exactly what we did with the native American’s,
choose our god or die… and why wouldn’t the aliens do
so if they were ‘‘true’’ believers in their own religions,
their own gods…a question of faith is that faith itself
is more important than what is actually believed in…
it is more important to have faith then to believe in a god or
in a religion… thus the faith that aliens have in their gods,
in their religion is just as important as our faith in our gods,
in our religions… but as it has been noted before, might
makes right and the aliens having might, can force us to
believe in their gods, in their religions…
and that is exactly what would happen if the aliens treat
religions and god, exactly the same way we do…
to force everyone to believe in god and religions…
just this time it would be the alien religions and god…

the second possibility is the more likely one, that aliens
don’t have, and quite possibly never had either god or
religions… or perhaps they outgrew them as
having religions only leads to strive, disputes,
and in many cases, outright wars… does the
benefits of having a god/religion outweigh the
vast dangers of having a god/religion?

the aliens might conclude that the civil wars created by
having different gods and different religions just aren’t
worth it… to save their state, their society, they got rid
of gods and religions…

If you want peace and security, the easiest way to achieve it
is to eliminate religions in a state or country…
now can you FORCE people to stop believing, no, of course not…
people have a need to believe in idiotic superstitions like
god and religions…the vast number of conspiracy theories
tell us that human beings are pretty gullible…and willing to
believe any tripe that sounds sincere… like IQ45 is smart…
is one example of an idiotic belief that sounds true, but it isn’t…

and therein lies the battle of the Enlightenment… to fight
the superstitions that people have… like god and religions
and conspiracy theories…

but let us examine the second possibility of aliens…
that they don’t believe in god or religions…
they were able to unite their state, whatever that
may be, into one unit by removing superstitions like
god and religions… one possible path of aliens is
that they treat each other with dignity and respect
and equality…with justice… that is another method
of reaching peace and having security in a state…
if justice is our overriding value, then we will have
a stronger, more secure state/society…
and I suspect that is how the aliens were able to
unite into a species… not just as parts, like for us,
American’s, or Jews, or whites, males, democrat…
ask an alien, who are you? and they will answer by saying,
I am a Vulcan… for example… and the answer is not
partials like we would give, American’s, males, Jews… etc, etc…
they would answer as a species and have pride in that answer…

Something we are far, far away from achieving… when asked,
who are you… we should be answering, I am a human being…
and that is enough…and after that, we can answer, I am life…
and that will be enough… but that is not today…

Kropotkin

8

Well you have inflated the baggage on the word “ Faith “ . You have straight way mixed cults with faith , isms with faith and based your arguments over such a diluted meaning of faith .
Faith is Primarily related to religion or to the derivatives of religious belief. Say, I am Hindu by faith, and equally faithful to philosophy and teachings of Ramakrishna Paramahansa.

9

Picture an even better scene: the aliens do not just “have” God too, they are God.

10

Weary.Locomotive:
Picture an even better scene: the aliens do not just “have” God too, they are God.

K: which leads me to wonder, do we drop our old ‘‘gods’’ and bend
the knee to these new gods? does the arrival of aliens bring about
a new religion, a new faith? That we must bow down
and pray to these new gods… is that what we must do
once these aliens arrive? Worship them…
that leads me to think that our current faiths, religions are
so weak that any type of wind will blow them down…
Many around here have complained about the ‘‘American
Culture’’ that seems to have swept the world, but the fact is
that if one’s home culture was strong, it wouldn’t have
been swept away by the American culture…
it is only by having a weak faith for a religion, can it
be replaced… having a strong faith in a religion means
that it cannot be swept away by any new faith that comes
along…if the French culture, to name one, were that strong,
it wouldn’t have been swept away by the American culture…
so, a strong, vibrant local or regional culture will remain,
no matter what other cultures come its way…
it is only the weak and fading cultures that get swept
away… thus this explains the rise of Christianity in ancient
Rome… it was a weak and fading culture already,
the Roman religions and myths were dying a slow death already,
and it was replaced by a stronger, more vibrant culture…
just as today, if a replacement for our religions come along,
Christianity would be quickly replaced… there is really
nothing holding us to Christian values because they are
already played out… There is no room for growth and
revitalization in religions today… they are simply hollowed
out tree’s waiting for the storm that will knock them down…
and the arrival of gods, in the form of aliens from space,
will create an entirely new religion, faith in the world today…
which is too bad… it should actually give us the incentive
to walk away from faiths, religions, myths and superstitions…
like belief in god or heaven/hell or in Angels or even in sin…

Kropotkin

11

So, if MAGA culture comes to dominate, it’s fine and dandy, since it is the stronger culture.

The way you write here is as if dominator cultures are better since other cultures weren’t as strong. A kind of social darwinism. Which means that warlike, dominator approaches are better. A radically conservative frame and one that aligns, in fact, with right wing conservative positions on all sorts of things like colonialism, traditional sex roles, race and more.

12

Peter_Kropotkin:
Many around here have complained about the ‘‘American
Culture’’ that seems to have swept the world, but the fact is
that if one’s home culture was strong, it wouldn’t have
been swept away by the American culture…

GF: So, if MAGA culture comes to dominate, it’s fine and dandy, since it is the stronger culture.

The way you write here is as if dominator cultures are better since other cultures weren’t as strong. A kind of social darwinism. Which means that warlike, dominator approaches are better. A radically conservative frame and one that aligns, in fact, with right wing conservative positions on all sorts of things like colonialism, traditional sex roles, race and more.

K: The MAGA cultural of hatred, racism, violence has been rejected by
the American people… in 2016, IQ45 lost the popular vote by almost
3 million people, in 2020 IQ45 lost by 7 million votes… I wouldn’t be
surprised that in 2024 he loses by over 12 million votes… and the elections
in between haven’t been kind to the MAGA crowd either…

let us take a look at what you said, ''the way you write here is as if
the dominator cultures are ‘‘better’’… the problem is, I didn’t say that…
if one holds their beliefs sincerely, there is very little chance of
having those beliefs ‘‘overturned’’ the only way one could have
a new ‘‘culture’’ put in, is the old culture has weakened…

Let us say, I believed in moderate democrat ideology…
and as the years pass, I begin to lose faith in that…
and I ‘‘converted’’ to a new ism, which was Anarchism…
the old faith no longer spoke to me, as it once did, so I
sought out a new ‘‘faith’’, and I found it… years later, I
grew disenchanted with Anarchism, I returned to a more moderate
position… my current position of a very liberal democrat…
and even today, my own current position is changing in some
fashion…I suspect, but can’t prove, that part of the solution
to the ‘‘American crisis’’ is a much greater usage of democracy…
the problem today isn’t that we have too much democracy,
we don’t have enough… the solution to our many problems lies
in a greater use of democracy… more democracy, not less…

it isn’t about being a ‘‘better’’ ism, it is about the loss of the
current ism… nature as it has been said, abhors a vacuum…
and the loss of faith in an ism is a vacuum, that needs to be
filled…I make no moral judgements about this, just a statement
of fact…

Kropotkin

13

questions of faith… I believe in god…

but why? what brings you to this belief, this faith?

I believe in the bible… a very strange, contradictory document…
it is quite evident that the bible was written over a thousand years
by hundreds of people…and it is hard to accept that given that
number of people over all those years, who participated in this writing,
that each and every single one of them was in touch with god…

things happen in the bible that can only be classified as miracles…
have any of you ever see a miracle? Outside of Jesus, who
has been risen from the dead after three days? who has seen the
sun and moon from moving, as in Joshua? there are miracles
a plenty in the bible and yet, no one has seen a miracle in
over two thousand years… so, belief comes from holding to
an event that isn’t possible…

In fact, there are many aspects of the bible that defy explanation…
the great flood of Noah… many cultures are said to have the
same flood and yet, at no point has there been any actual
physical evidence for such a flood…a flood that big has gotta
leave a mark… so, where is it?

an eternal soul…once again, a matter taken on faith…with
no proof or evidence… I believe, have faith in UFO’S, and
why? Because when I was about 10, I saw one… traveling
across the sky when I lived in Florida… it was less then 150
feet from me…and about maybe, 75 feet above the ground…
and moving very, very slowly… aircraft can’t move that slow without
crashing… and it made no noise… as it was early in the morning,
about 5 or 6, the neighborhood was very quiet… and at no point
did I hear anything from the craft…I have no evidence outside
of my own sighting of it, but that is more than the believers of god
have of their god… I have more proof about a UFO, then you
do of an eternal soul…my experience was first hand,
I don’t have a second hand account to add… and yet, the
vast majority of events, of miracles are not first hand evidence,
but second, even third hand accounts… everything accounted for a miracle
in the bible, is worse than a third hand account… and of eternal souls?
do you have a first hand account of having an eternal soul?
have you witnessed it yourself?

but it is not just religious matters that take things on faith…
the idea about American exceptionalism…
the idea that the U.S is either distinctive, unique or
exemplary is another example of taking matters on faith…
believing that America is a Christain country, is another…
that America is the greatest country on earth is another…
that IQ45 is the second coming… faith based and thus
lacking in evidence… as is the idea of American exceptionalism…
and being a Christian country… where is the evidence?

We hold onto ideas and isms without any evidence for them…
that whites are superior to blacks, that Jews run the world,
that the 2020 election was stolen, that there is some sort
of ‘‘Deep State’’… that the only ‘‘true’’ Americans are conservatives…
that the reason for our issues today is Americans being ‘‘WOKE’’
and within any of that, is there any sort of evidence, any facts
supporting any of that? The answer is clearly no…they are
superstitions, myths, prejudice, questions of faith that have
no basis in reality… and they lead people into contradictions,
discrepancies, inconsistency, and conflict… people
hold to the idea that life, all of life is sacred… this is the basis
of the anti-abortion laws… and yet, those same people hold
to contradictory beliefs such as capital punishment, laws
like Florida’s ‘‘Stand your ground’’ they hold to beliefs
in gun rights, guns who only purpose is to cause violence…
but my guns protect me, yes, by threatening violence…if
all life is sacred, then even owning a gun violates that
premise…

and therein lies my argument… that much of what we hold faith in,
believe in, is also cause of many contradictions, discrepancies,
inconsistency and conflict… if god is love, how can we hold to
violent ideas like capital punishment and gun violence and torture?

I believe, hold to that much of what we have faith in, hold
to believe in, is really ego driven… I hold to the superiority
of white people, because I am white… that is the nature of
bigotry and prejudice… to hold that others different from me,
are worth less, have less value then I do… because they
aren’t white… the essence of faith allows one to practice
conflicting and contradictory beliefs… the word ‘‘Catholic’’,
means universal… but if one believes in prejudice or bigotry,
where is the universal in that? If all people are equal in the
eyes of god, where does that allow prejudice and bigotry
to fill our value system? If god allows only those who
are white or wealthy or hold certain beliefs into heaven,
then I reject the entire concept of heaven and god…
for me, as an atheist, it is an all or nothing proposition…
either everyone gets into heaven or no one…and that
is the essence of equality… justice… to be treated equal
before the law, before god…all or nothing…

in prejudice and bigotry, we can exclude some because of
our faith, our faith taught to us as children…
but in the path of justice and equality, we cannot
exclude anyone…

thus we must exclude faith as a path in our lives…
we must include justice and equality as the basis of our
lives, not faith or belief…because faith and belief can
bring us to injustice and inequality… bigotry and prejudice…

Kropotkin

14

Yes, I said you wrote that ‘as if’ which specifically means that one did not directly say it. Can you see how it’s a reasonable interpretation? Your argument was that if France became americanized, well, that means their culture was weaker. I assume your hypothesis doesn’t just hold for France. If the African cultures became Europeanized, well their cultures were weaker. You obviously judge religious culture and you saw this as fading, because it is weaker.

It seems to me you are assuming a social darwinism, survival of the fittest, here as memes and whole cultures.

Well, if you think we had more democracy before, than having more democracy is just weaker. Less democracy has come in, so it is the stronger meme, according to your analysis.

Then you can’t make a moral judgment about the now lesser democracy. Nor is there any reason to judge any position, because the stronger postions will win out. All historical changes are fine, since stronger memes and cultures one out over weaker ones.

I can only hope you might be able to imagine how this would sound to a colonized nation or to Native Americans, for example. Well, your cultures were weaker.

It sidesteps, it seems to me, for example Imperial cultures that destroy cultures that might actually be healthier for all involved. Well, the stronger culture won seems like a very conservative and yes, non-critical, way of thinking about history and culture.

There’s certainly nothing to worry about with MAGA. If they somehow take over, well, they are the stronger culture. If they don’t, well, obviously that’s not a problem for someone who dislikes their culture. Either way it’s fine. They win, well the weak culture and its ideas, yeah, gets eliminated. They lose… well, they were actually weaker.

Power will show fitness.

15

[quote=“Ichthus77 (formerly She™), post:2, topic:80518, username:Ichthus77”]

Ichthus wrote…

Do we agree that all philosophical beliefs that have zero (or less than zero) impact on how we live our lives are empty…the opposite of true philosophy?

Not necessarily, Ichthus. We all see things differently. What we value and see as truth and wisdom, someone else may see differently or not necessary to their, let’s say human personal evolution.

We are not all on the same road or path in our journey and we have not come from the same historical background so we may not see things in the same light…and why should we?

16

You mean fitness as in insanity, greed, racism, megalomania?