A Recent Family Debate

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
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Greetings, I am new to this board, and am searching for a forum to gather others opinions on a argument I recently had with a family member. After browsing a few other threads, this seemed like a reasonable place.

I will spare the details of what led to the argument, but essentially it boiled down to my family member attempting to provide a counter-point to something I had said with the following, “What about gay sex, HIV, that hurts non-consenting people. What about closet homosexual married husbands who go out and cheat and have gay sex, contract AIDS, and then give it to their wives.”

My perception of that, or rather at least what I took out of what she intended to say based on phrasing and her general attitude/tone was that she was condemning the actual act of homosexual sex based on her example scenario. To me, the issue there was not the act in and of itself, it was the human individuals’ behavior following. Could it not be argued that in contrast to that scenario, there are also similar married men who may cheat in having gay sex and not proceed to pass on AIDS to their wife (whether because they did not contract it, or chance enabled them not to pass it on, etc, etc, is irrelevant to my point I suspect). The same physical act is committed, with differing consequence. It seems to me that what effectively resulted in the wife getting AIDS in that situation is a combination of both him having cheated, and then failing to disclose the fact to his wife.

Essentially what I am asking for people’s views on is whether or not in that proposed situation, the gay sex is intrinsically dangerous and damaging to the non-consenting individual (and I must say she will probably bring up that HIV rates are higher in the gay community as an argument for gay sex inherently having a negative cultural/social effect), or whether it is other factors one might argue are present. Forgive me if any of this seems trite, I am not particularly intellectually or philosophically oriented, but I take issue with this family members often subtle displays of bias and stereotype towards social group she does not understand. She is a psychologist, and I personally am developing the feeling that she views homosexual behavior as socially deviant, but is unwilling to admit it. I personally haven’t had a gay experience, but this family member often comes back to homosexuality in the course of our arguing about the balance between an individuals’ right to personal freedom in terms of their body/mind (as you may guess, it comes up in the context of drugs quite a bit) and whats generally good on a social scale.

All views, opinions, criticism, and anything else anybody may have to say on the matter (any aspect of it you particularly feel like commenting on) are welcome and appreciated.

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There are straight men who cheat on their wives and pass infection along that way. There are straight women who cheat on their husbands and pass infection along that way.

The problem isn’t gay-sex and gay-relationships, but rather promiscuity and infidelity.

That said, when you actively deny someone a ceremony whereby commitment becomes a reality rather than merely a suggestion, then the idea of ‘infidelity’ can’t properly apply. When that concept can’t be properly applied, well, what do you suppose happens?

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I don’t understand your question.

That aside, what I do know is that if a person who has AIDS, and knows they have AIDS, willingly has unprotected sex (or even protected sex…the risk is still there) with another person, they should be shot.

I can think of only a few more atrocities more dispicable than that. Only a few.

4

Your avatar being one of those atrocities. Seriously dude, do you ever wear a shirt?

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The difference is all between anal and vaginal sex, not between homo and hetero sex; though, of course, with another man you cannot choose between an anus and a vagina. In the case of vaginal sex, friction wounds are much less likely to occur (though this is also dependent on her “wetness” and tightness, I fancy). I agree with Xunzian, though, that the real issue is not homo or hetero sex, or even protected or unprotected sex, but fidelity or infidelity. A propos, I think protected sex is like eating with a plastic bag hanging down your throat, which is to intercept the food before it can nourish you. Food tastes good because it is, in principle, good for you (for instance, sugar is instant energy); likewise, I think that sex feels good because, as food prolongs your individual existence, sex prolongs your genetic existence. I also think that, if sex is separated long enough from the end to which it exists (and thus from the reason for which it feels good), sexual pleasure will atrophy. Homo sex is, of course, an example of sex which has been separated from procreation.

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So much for oral sex and masturbation, then.

The only sense in which your sentence is true, Sauwelios, is that that it is surely the reason why we evolved into animals for whom sex feels good: it motivates us to do it. However, there seems to be considerable spillover into other activities which don’t contribute to procreation, but which feel good in pretty much the same way.

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Sex as communication plays an important role for other animals, and humans.

Nothing new here. Sex and procreation are linked, but not totally dependent on each other. Rather, procreation is dependent on sex, but sex isn’t dependent on procreation.

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Fine. I changed my avatar.

I don’t wear a shirt when I can get away with it. In the summer I like to absorb vitamin D from the sun and show off my hot bod. This is for two reasons. One, to attract beautiful women with the prospects of bearing my child prodigy. Two, to intimidate the fellas. I want to separate the men from the boys, so that I might recruit worthy soldiers into my vanguard army.

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Sauwelios, what’s with the new avatar? Have you gotten a power pole installed up there by your cave, and do you now have an X-box?

You really should get the game “Oblivion.” You’ll put your Nietzsche books on the shelf for months if you get that game. Fritz woulda loved that game, man.

Don’t start with a spell-caster character. You get killed easily unless you are quick with the controller. But if you do, let me know and I’ll tell you where all the bad-ass weapons are, so you have better chances at melee combat.

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Damn, that game is awesome.

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Personally, I find this argument very easy to extinguish. This is what can be referred to as a logical fallacy of converse accident, she is drawing a general rule from a particular incident, it has no bearing on truth. In my mind her argument is completely irrelevant.

Here’s a better definition of the fallacy. Wikipedia Description

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I think I’m gonna rent it tonight for the P3 – wanna PM me some tips?

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Dude, you don’t merely rent Oblivion. You buy it, a large screen TV, and lock yourself in your room. The rest of the world does not matter when you play that game. Its like a religion. Just get started and I’ll help you out. But first, when you make the jail break, don’t try to fight those assassins at first…let the guards do it.

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My suggestion for anyone serious about Elder Scrolls games isn’t to rent it, nor to play it on a big screen TV, but to purchase a computer, the device on which they are meant to be played.

Morrowind and Oblivion without mods makes about as much sense as ILP without posters.

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I held off on renting it, you’re both right… this is no renting matter. Unfortunately it’s my roommate’s P3 and I’m leaving soon for the summer so I may have to put this adventure on hold for now.

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Well, now.

Let’s not get too excited.

Clearly, playing it on the TV is superior to not playing it at all. I mean, it is a (purposefully) incomplete project . . . but what are you gonna do?

But if you want to talk about incomplete projects, can anyone say: Daggerfall?

That has got to be the best game I ever beta-tested. That’s right, beta-tested. Why? Because the completed version was never released. That isn’t what Bethesda tells you, but there is no way that you would fall through the floor that much in a complete game.

I always stole from Hammerfell. Breton power!

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Yeah, I’m with Xunzian, mod or die (can anyone say ‘planned obsolescence’), I cannot even bother with Vanilla Oblivion anymore. There’s a huge project called FCOM, previously Cry FRANOOOMMM! which merges the biggest most all-encompassing mods. And not to mention the texture packs and GUI enhancements… it is almost more work to mod than to play… and now Shivering Isles… good lord…