Absolutely moral

In search of the ABSOLUTE in morality - Hmmm…Where is it? For example, Is it really true that some acts are necessarily moral or immoral?

Okay, “Moral” must be defined first. Let’s see…“The Moral is a good act, the immoral a bad act”. Hmm…Or "The Moral is an act in accordance with [God, Nature, social contract]. Or, "The Immoral is to act against [God, People]. Hmm…

An example: I define INTENTIONAL RANDOM KILLING as Any act where one person intentionally and randomly causes the death of another person. This has a strong possibility of being immoral. But it is first and foremost a physical act in the sense of cause and effect; that is, it is first and foremost an intentional human behaviour having a direct consequence - namely, the death of another person. Nothing moral there.

So, exactly what is its MORAL nature? (forgetting for the moment the question of “absolute”).

Let’s say that MORAL is first of all decided upon by the Group. Start with a society rather than a single person. Thus moral is thus close to Law, or Mores, or any other such socially ordering principle. The moral is that which the group deems “moral”.

Okay, then to continue: If a group deems it not worthy of concern or not necessary to denounce random killing, then to that group an act of intentional random killing is not even a moral question. (Canabalism and human sacrifice come to mind. Indeed, the randomness and intentionality in human sacrifice might be part of the killing’s moral goodness!) But if another group has concluded differently, and has thought it necessary to denounce random killing, then to that group, random killing is immoral. What could possibly make the first or the second group wrong or right: that is, Is one group more or less consistent with some set of absolute morals to conclude that, “One of these groups are not acting morally?”

Even more so - even if all peoples denounce an act as immoral this in itself does not make the act an absolutely immoral act. It is mere consistancy, no? An ABSOLUTE must be based on something other than some accidental COMMONALITY of a moral denunciation, otherwise we would have the problems of reconciling so many variations between cultures as well as the difficulty of judging evolving moral standards.

There must be something more reliable than shared commonality to constitute the label ABSOLUTE. I think it is here: One thing that seems to be absolute and unchanging is that each culture makes for itself some set of moral conclusions: that is, every discrete culture has its own concept of morality. Thus, morality itself is an absolute, like eating, or two-legged. Man is not only a biped; he and she are moral beings. This indicates that being moral is a common factor within each human community, that it must have an origin within each human group, such that this commonality did not rely on communication outside the group, but that in parallel all discrete human groups have come to the same conclusion or evolutionary state: the necessity of having a morality.

But what to make of random intentional killing – is it absolutely immoral? Following the above, it is only within the stadnards and social needs of a particular group that one can discover whether random intentional killing is immoral. That it would shock my conscience to learn of human sacrifice, and that in an increasingly globalized world, it is quite possible to advocate for change in some cultures - this international rights movement does not reveal or rely upon an absolute in terms of content only an absolute that morality is a driving force within human beings - personally and especially social.

At best you show that so far all cultures have adopted subjective morality without any clear thought.

Doesn’t mean there isn’t an absolute morality. There’s an absolute number pi but we subjectivly call it 3,14 or 3.1415, etc. (there was even one country which had a legal statute defining pi to be 4, I forget which now, damn this memory). All you have shown is that cultures of the past have made their morality to fit their beliefs, notthat there is no absolute morality.

Thanks for the short but to the point reply. First of all I am glad that you think I proved something. I was worried that it made no sense.

Some responses:

  1. When you use the word ‘subjective’ I am in line with (I think) a Kantian notion of subjectivity. (The mind creates an objective universe even though that universe is in fact subjective because it is merely a reflection of how we think.) But I am no kantian moralist as you can imagine. Problem with Kant is that after he set up this subjective/objective correlation, he allowed the possibility of creating many subjective worlds. Thus, for me, within the ‘subjectivity’ of a cultural belief system, there is an internal system of objective truths. Does this make sense? It’s a sort of objective subjuectivity, or a set of relative objectivities. Anyway, maybe it’s only a digression.

  2. If you’re going to use mathematics and physical science to discuss morality then it is yours to prove the relevancy. Though I am not necessarily arguing against your point, per se; rational analysis is clearly important in moral discussions. It’s just that you are making such an unproven leap to say that the since the physical world functions in an apparantly absolute way (pi=3.14…, etc.) therefore morality does the same.

  3. You say that pi=3.14… For some cultures pi is not acknowledged. Therefore it has no relevancy to their ‘math’. Is then pi absolute? More analogous to my point is that since all cultures ‘count’ in some manner this proves to me that ‘counting’ itself is fundamental and absolute. How a particular culture counts is beside the point in terms of finding absolutes.

  4. The fact that a moral system reflects a cultures’ ‘subjective’ beliefs proves to me that the source of morality is subjective. My opinion is that as hard as we try we cannot step outside our cultural beliefs. And as apparently absolute our convictions seem, they are always tied to our subjective cultural beliefs.

Everything in life is subjective, even when we try to talk about an objective world all we are doing is agreeing on a shared subjectivity that we call objective. You’ve read Kant, have you read Schopenhauer? He takes up from Kant’s ideas moving them forward and is well worth the read.

I don’t believe that morality is something that is to be found in nature, unless morality is the rule of survival of the fittest. I subjectively see it as a construct for order, which we have created in the hope of increasing are possibility of survival. If we didn’t have some form of agreed guide for conducting life, our life would be a lot more problematic.

The best we can hope for when it comes to objectivity is to use logic in guiding our moral codes. As the more logical a code is the less lightly it will contain a major flaw. But morality is something most will ignore given the right motivation and opportunity.

Pax Vitae

Pax Vitae

So, “Everything in life is subjective,” is it?

Including this statement?

Please be logical, and tell the truth as it is. Some things in life are subjective.

Doesn’t that feel better?

Did I detect sarcasm?

Or perhaps that was just my own subjective interpretation of what you meant.

Haha, yes, and I think you have just proven this. You can choose what to make of anything that you come across in life. It’s true some things are less open to subjectivity. But we can only come to know something from our own unique life experiences, which while similar to other peoples will always be slightly different and individual to us.

If you believe you can prove my statement false then do. But because life is subjective I might not agree with what you put forward as a non-subjective opinion. You might believe its objective, but all objectivity is, is when most people would agree with that point of view.

Will this subjective/objective thing ever go away?

To say that, “you can choose what to make of anything that you come across in life” is totally different from saying that, “everything in life is subjective.”

I can agree with the former statement but never the latter.

That is not because I am bringing my subjective self to bear on the matter, (although I am,) but rather because I accept the objective structural laws and limits that common logical language usage requires, in this case, English, along with what, five hundred million other human beings?

If we all went around speaking like Cauchy3 then I could agree with you that everything in life is subjective!

If you believe you can prove my statement false then do. But because life is subjective I might not agree with what you put forward as a non-subjective opinion. You might believe its objective, but all objectivity is, is when most people would agree with that point of view.

Are you issuing me with a challenge here? How do I know that you’re not completely hung up on this subjective thing, so hardened to stone, as it were, that it would take a thousand years to wear you down?

I once worked in a mental institution. Some of the schizophrenics I came across were convinced they were Jesus Christ or Napoleon or some other famous person in history. No amount of discussion could dent their delusions. I mean, it was impossible to persuade them to open their minds and see that there might be a possibility of their being mistaken.

In your case, I would say you were suffering from absolutist subjectivism verging on solipsism!

Look at this possibility, maybe you’re a system builder, you’re into philosophical system building, and you have to cling on to your fixed obsessional idea that everything is subjective, otherwise your whole house of cards comes crashing down!

And then where would you be, all your beliefs, all your great ideas, all your knowledge, all those years of study, all of it lying in a heap on the ground?

What then, despair? Where then subjective versus objective? What about absolute v. relative?
In that day you would curse your maker!

Well, it could be the best thing that ever happened to you! You’ve jettisoned all the philosophical junk that was preventing your ship from sailing, now you can set out on a true philosophical voyage of discovery and enlightenment!

What’s the moral?

Those who go on about everything in life being subjective pay the price!

Hi Warrior_Monk! Long time no see, glad you found a way back on the boards!

Who’s warrior monk when he’s at home?

EnMarchant. ‘There are no absolutes in morality’ but logic forbids me from regarding that statement as an absolute (in a moral sense anyway).
I quote myself from atheism a good thing, religious perspective thread in the religion forum:

One can not ethically consider an act out of it’s context, apart from it’s motive, separate from the moral agent, etc. There are no absolutes in morality. For every absolute, there will be a situation in which that rule does not apply. I think your decision to ascribe morality to the whims of the group arbitrary from a certain perspective, although you probably merely tendered it as an example. For instance, i know that if i kill someone, the chances of myself being killed are greatly increased. I, therefore, personally not collectively, refrain from killing people(death generally being something to be avoided [read disvalue] for living creatures).

Haha, I probably am. But I’m not going to subject myself to your subjective opinion.

To tell you the truth, if I still believe exactly the same things as I did a year ago it mean I haven’t learned anything since then. You need to keep knocking down the your card house, if you don’t, you don’t grow.

I don’t agree with that subjective opinion. Each person is the measure for all things! We learn that in Green Philosophy 101.

But enough about subjective/objective opinion, Morality is a prime example of how everybody can view things differently. The only leg morality can stand on is, “Treat somebody the way you want to be treated”, or better yet “Treat people as they want to be treated”. But the first form is the most powerful, as you will be a hypocrite if you do any different. It’s also the underlying message in the Moral code of the New Testament.

The golden rule does seem to make a good foundation…

There might not be a way to enforce this Golden Rule, except through religious superstitions. But that’s just the way it is. Yet for those of a less religious disposition the Golden Rule stands for its self. If I want to be treated with respect I need to respect others, this makes logical sense. While if you come across somebody who treats people like crap, well then they should be encouraged to be nice and if they don’t then they should be treated like crap. I believe in mirroring peoples’ personalities towards me, if you’re nice I’ll be nice, if not, I won’t.

EnMarchant

In all humility and with grave respect I have to tell you that your thesis is utterly confused and demonstrates little beyond a sense of your hopelessness and despair at ever finding any answer!

I praise you for at least making an attempt to grapple with the problem even if it were doomed to failure from the start. Congratulations! There are not many with your guts in philosophy!

I should inform you that there was a certain long-distance runner by the name of Chrysippus who lived three centuries before Jesus ben Pantera and he solved the riddles of morality.

In the first century after Jesus a freed slave by the name of Epictetus lived and continued to teach the doctrines proven by Chrysippus.

If you go to Arrian’s Discourses of Epictetus and read that thoroughly and slowly the solutions to all your moral difficulties will soon begin to dawn upon you.

There is nothing like this work in the entire history of philosophy.

Armed with this little slingshot of a book alone one might bring down the entire philistine establishment of philosophy!

epictetus_phrygianslave in my humble opinion i think you should get out more. Read what others have to say. Talk to people. See if what they say agrees with you and your ideas. Simply touting someone as the answer is not philosophy. The argumentum ad verecundiam (or simply appeal to authority) as well as the argumentum ad baculum which seems popular here, simply will not work. This is a forum, not a marketplace. Ideas are discussed here. They are not marketed or sold.

Pax Vitae. The concept of reciprocity seems to me to be a specificity of the golden rule in a way.

Marshall

With respect, you should practise what you preach. Do you not ‘toutKrishnamurti, Nietzsche, and Sartre in every single one of your posts?

Why do you seek to silence me? Is it because the Church of the Philosophical Establishment, the one you, (wittingly or not,) subscribe to, has a vested interest in keeping people in ignorance of the truth?

You say, “ideas are discussed here.” ([size=75]I don’t see much by way either of ideas or discussion, only a great deal of quibbling[/size].) But you are wrong in believing that philosophy is merely about the discussion of ideas. Philosophy is also about function, i.e., the application of precepts and transformation of one’s behaviour.

Any development in genuine philosophical understanding will always be expressed in one’s actions.

This aspect of philosophy is completely overlooked by the Church of the Philosophical Establishment. Why? Because it suggests that there may be infallible truth out there. And what does that mean? It means that the professional sophists who run philosophy will be cast out of their well-paid posts and seen as the totally useless members of the community they really are.

Now, I am trying my best to discuss the huge idea of reformation and what do I get? You, Marshall, trying to belittle me with patronising advice.

I realise that a few people on this site choose to get upset by my posts, I do hope you’re not one of them.

[Oh, by the way, I think you meant to say, argumentum baculinum, (the argument of the stick) - please correct me if I’m wrong!]

Well, I still love and forgive you even if you do throw me off the site!

Yeah but see, epic, this statement just makes you the other guy. Accompanied by this statement:

…you might as well be that market place.

There are a few types of people who respond to philosophy differently.

One set takes it casually and with no real concern. Another set takes it as a priority concern but not as an emergency. The last set, like yourself, makes a conspiracy out of it.

You are saying in the same breath: "I believe that people are ignorant, and I believe that they aren’t supposed to be, and I believe that they have been terribly decieved by philosophy.

Then, you assume the position of the very thing you are complaining about:

I’ll give you some inside information, my friend. Most likely you are entirely wrong about whatever you believe, or you are particularly right about some things but incomplete about everything. Which kinda puts you into that infintesimal gap we call “philosophy.” Its nice to have you here with us, epic.

You might as well post this sign at the front door because, [cough]…, this is what philosophy is about.

Now don’t get me wrong here. This is not to say that we shouldn’t carry our beliefs with conviction and caution, at least claiming before anything else that we believe we are right and are prepared to defend those beliefs. But when the guy comes along that doesn’t know this he makes a fool out of himself.

As Marshall mentioned this is not a market place, but I don’t think this necessarily means that we can’t set up shop and advertise our ideas. Know the difference, well, you should already if you read the sign before walking through the door.

Did you?

Oh, and I see no reason to kick epic out, personally. I actually like these kinds of conflicts as they provide a fascinating study of human behavior.

This is the GOOD STUFF, people. This is humanity in the limelight.

True, but Christianity also introduced the idea of ‘turning the other cheek’

De’trop

Your friendly words moved me.

I’m not sure quite what you’re saying though - but it doesn’t seem hostile so I’m all ears!

Marshall

By the way, a forum is a marketplace!!!

Socrates hung about the market-place didn’t he? And what about Diogenes the Cynic? Hey and what about the Apostle Paul, wasn’t he preaching and arguing against the stoics and epicureans in the forum?

So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with them that met with him. (Acts XVII 17)

Perhaps you are incorrect Marshall, perhaps philosophy is about buying and selling! The buying and selling of ideas!