Affirmative Action - good or bad?

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1

Is Affirmative Action Good or Bad?

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  • Unsure
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Affirmative Action does treat blacks differently than whites. This difference in treatment clearly benefits blacks and hurts whites, when it makes any difference. In that sense, it is discrimination, and thus racism.

However, there is also the fact that many black people still suffer abysmally low education and income rates, very probably due to slavery and racism in our relatively recent history (past 150 years). In this sense, maybe blacks are due a little reverse racism.

What does everyone think about this? Is AA racist? Is it good? Is it both?

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yes, affirmative action is racism and sexism against white males.

but the ones who benefit most from affirmative action are white females.

is that fair? sure.

is that right? sure.

is that good? sure.

-Imp

3

Really? Certainly you can make a case to say that it’s right and good, but fair? Any group-based bias seems by definition to be unfair.

4

Yes, affirmative action is racism and sexism.

This is what happens as a natural affectation of allowing the government to decide for us what proper morality is or should be.

I won’t agree with Impenitent. Two wrongs never correct a situation, it just continues the animosity. That a large number of blacks are disadvantaged economically, therefore educationally, is as much a failure of “the black community” as it is society in general. The same goes with the disparities with gender.

Affirmative action is simply another manner of allowing masses of individuals to not be responsible for their own actions, and always have a scapegoat.

Kill Whitey!!!

5

might makes right.

the liberal democRATS have decreed that the white male american is the scourge of the country, nay the world. they and they alone are the origin of every evil that has ever been perpetrated in the world. it is justice that the white american male be forced to suffer the slings and arrows of unfair legislation that forces them to conduct their private business in such a way as is pleasing to the liberal idiots.

and until the revolution against the revolutionaries is completed, you will be plagued with this unfairness.

what you gonna do about it?

kill whitey? no, kill liberal whitey.

-Imp

6

The problem with affirmative action is that the people who most benefit from it have to question whether their ability (or abilities) got them the job or if they were simply hired to fulfill a company’s quota.

I’m female, but I’m somewhat leery of affirmative action. In theory, it seems like a nice idea to “level the playing field.” In practice, however, I think it creates more animosity between particular groups of people.

7

I don’t want to comment on the specific mechanisms of affirmative action because I think there are some serious problems.

And, I guess I agree with the statement that “the person most qualified shoud get the job.”

But, at the same time, I also recognise that it isn’t a level playing field for non-white, non-males to get the qualifications in the first place.

So I don’t know, I can’t see how to get around it, it should be a merit based system, but minorities should have fair access to merit, and they don’t.

cheers,
gemty

8

Here’s another factor to consider:

  1. Not all minorities suffer from past injustices. Black children whose families are doctors are advantaged, not disadvantaged. They don’t need the kind of help Affirmative Action offers. I don’t believe AA discriminates between needy black people and advantaged black people, although someone please correct me if I am wrong (or affirm if I am right).

  2. Not all those who are disadvantaged from past injustices are recognized as minorities. There are white families who remain poor and poorly educated because their ancestors were indentured servants. There are irish immigrants who, in the early 1900s, were treated little better than slaves, and their decendants still suffer ramifications to this day - yet they see no benefits from affirmative action. In fact, since AA does NOT recognize them as a minority, if anything, they suffer from AA.

Thoughts?

I think we should also think about this: anyone who is against AA should try to offer a better alternative, if they can think of one.

9

Both observations are correct. If you are going to subsidise one (or several) set(s) of people’s education on the grounds of past injustice then you are on a slippery slope. The majority of Europeans were slaves by another name under the feudal system and then under the grand Monarchies of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, and for much longer than blacks were being transported to the US as slaves. So where’s the money meant to come from to compensate the likes of me, a reasonably comfortable middle class white person whose ancestors were agricultural slaves? Put simply, by current standards, there isn’t the money in the world to compensate everyone whose ancestors suffered injustices.

So, conceptually it is hazy at best and contradictory at worst, and practically it is laughably beyond our means.

Free education for all, and strict standards on the quality (but not content) of that education. It’ll cost a lot, but national education does cost a lot and I’m pretty sure that given the option, most people would rather have the kids in school, learning, than roaming the streets in ignorance. However, I could be wrong about this.

Threaten lazy ethnic minorities and majorities with communism? Forced Labour, paid at a good rate? I dunno, there are all sorts of other options…

10

Any affirmative action becomes dirty when it gets associated with politics and reverse racism. And I think it is also a truth that there is no point when two things are absolutely equal, unless they fuse together. Affirmative actions in USA is only going to turn into reverse racism and dirty politics unless whites and blacks race-mix and fuse together to form a new unique race and community. In my country India the affirmative actions made more benefit to politicians and is much of a fallacy. There is always the possibility that politicians “use” the oppressed caste as vote banks, while the real needy people of both groups suffer.

Few days ago I read in the newspaper that in England white candidates for police service were expelled just to keep black officials to prove that the system is not race-biased…I think it is madness. What had those poor white candidates ever done to blacks? And it was opposed by an INDIAN politician. Really strange England has become!

Renaissance203.

11

Twiffy,

The problem here is you are trying to use logic to engage something principled upon the emotions of racism and the passions of political pursuits. Logic doesn’t work in this arena, because it requires that consensus be for what is ultimately beneficial, without regards to individual or minority “feelings”. That won’t buy or sell votes, and it won’t give certain groups the scapegoat they feel they deserve.

Actually R203 isn’t off base at all. Garnering votes from the impoverished, or categorically impoverished/disadvantaged, is a favored tool of the American politician.

No actually you would be correct in the greater instance, except where applied to American education. Because it is another bastion of political jockeying, it becomes about policy and management, and children don’t really matter. Too many school systems in our country have a 1/3:2/3 operations systems of management to teachers. This is why American education is falling behind the rest of the world … the politicians want taxpaying, vote yielding drones … not free thinkers with broad education and knowledge desires.

There is only one resolution to issues like these: greater character of the people … get back to me in a thousand millenia when it finally happens.

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Affirmative action is neither good, bad, nor evil. This is because good, bad and evil don’t exist in an objective sense.

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I agree there is no objective “good” or “bad”, but a) there are notions of good and bad that are common to most people, and b) we all have our individual systems of morality in which we can say “I think it’s good / bad”. Even though this doesn’t spell out objective truth, it’s still interesting!

14

AA was instituted approximately forty years ago to rectify the inbalance between minorities, Whites and the sexes. White men, would usually only hire other White men. It, IMO, was very necessary then. We have a couple of generations between then and now, and it, IMO, is not necessary.

After all these years, minorities and women should be able to cut it. If women and minorities make bad choices, similar to White men, they they will suffer the repercussions of this choice. Sure, they whine, and play the broken record victim game, but generally, they have no one to blame, but themselves.

Many liberals will jump in and discuss poverty, violence etc. Again, this worked with the grandparents and was justified, but when their children would rather whine “Victim” and refuse to get of their backsides and work, I have little sympathcy.

Just my two cents twiffy. :sunglasses:

15

Hum, my change of heart occured while attempting to teach in an inner city high school. 80% of the students were on free lunch, and were on welfare. Many wore very expensive, $150.00 sneakers and clothing I would not spend so much on. Granted, many were struggling, but many were dealing drugs and stealing. Approximately 5%, high estimate, of the student body were interested in academics. Yes, many simply wanted to be blue collar workers, which is fine, but an appalling number wanted to be ganstas.

Do you realize that we now have third and fourth generation gangta families with Grandma telling the grandchildren how to do drugs, the best way to steal, etc.

Most of these are minorities. Hence, a huge change in heart regarding the downtrodden. :confused:

This is a good idea abused by humans.

16

Yes, I was not as worried regarding this because I never filled out the gender nor ethnicity boxes, not required. Also, I have a male spelling of my first name, even as a teen I ended up in male gym classes. Hence, a strong feeling of security regrading my abilities.

Hence, no one on this board has the ability to intimidate me. Hint, hint.

The opportunities are there, many laugh, but they are, but we have to work our butts off to do well. Geez, I remember working full-time and sitting in class until 10:00 p.m. ouch.

Brutal, yes, but I am now reaping the rewards and not working a blue collar job.

:sunglasses:

17

Much of what you say is correct, we pass the mucks through the system because administrators demand it. However, by the age of 16, the mucks are weeded out in most European and Asian educational systems, not so in the USA. We have them until 18, regardless of ability or initiative. This is part of the reason our scores are so low. Also, these other countries are not as “tolerant” of those who cannot speak their language as we are.

With regards,

aspacia :sunglasses:

18

Aspacia, I entirely agree when you say that AA was good and useful back in the 1950s, and now it’s bad and racist.

When I hear about a black person being discriminated against, having fewer opportunities, and being talented but not being given the opportunity to develop, or to prove his talent, I am glad to hear that by some means this wrong is overcome, and he is, in essence, given what he is due. But I went to a prestigious university on a scholarship, which was the only way I would get to go, because my parents were DIRT poor. Nonetheless I was talented and earned myself a position there. But this university was not race-blind and gave preference to certain races over others. But the preference was based on RACE. An unfortunately large number of the black students I saw at the university were significantly less talented than the average - so much so I have no doubt they were admitted almost solely based on race. Yet, they were extremely well off, as a universal rule. Their parents were doctors, lawyers, and entreprenures. These kids were extremely advantaged, and either lazy, or simply not talented - yet they were admitted to an excellent school anyway. This is clearly not a good thing, when you imagine a truly talented hard-working individual who was denied entry because he was a more majority race.

If we, as a society, truly believe that race doesn’t matter, why do we insist on an idea of diversity based on race? True diversity is diversity of culture, diversity of beliefs and ideas. The black people at my school were just as white as all the rest of us white kids in culture, economic background, and all the rest. All they had was dark skin and the tendency to not interact with those without black skin. That kind of diversity isn’t particularly valuable to me. One of my best friends at college was a black African (as in, not America) - very well educated, very smart, a wonderful guy. Totally different culture and perspectives. THAT was valuable to me.

Here’s what I think about AA. I think it is a good idea to help those who are truly disadvantaged. But the color of your skin isn’t a good predictor of that anymore, as it was in the 1950s. But what does it mean to be disadvantaged?

  1. You live in a low-income household
  2. You live in a low-education household
  3. You are at high-risk for discrimination

is there anything else?

These are fairly easy things to determine. If someone satisfies more than 1 of these, they may qualify for government assistance / intervention / whatever. If not, tough titties - work for what you get like the rest of us. That’s what I think AA should be, if we keep it around at all.

Thoughts?

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black american are not of the same culture and background than whites, this is a truth i saw, as for other groups but with blacks it is too too obvious uglyness of your country, you are saying blacks are racist too that borders are settled of both side, i dont agree, you are still thinking of not willing to see, there is this AA now you critize it like a thing nobody need, but i am sure there are still many schools that wont allow the presence of blacks, while you feel ok of not thinking well about your university policy to say they are not like that, it is a reactional behaviour to say i am not that bad that others do, which means you are bad as well but conscient about it and show a slight will to accept a black with you on board, why would men in charge would give advantages to whom dont serve their interests in raising funds goals? in the worst understanding it would be a clever expression of a system willing to expand knowing his weaknesses, lackness of values, and hoping to erase this factor buy considering these values as prostitues, you see how i treated your kind, even the most unvaluable ones, so shut up and dont dare put my system leadership in doubt, money is our goal to give love, if i dont have the money how you think i payed my contribution to values? the problem is the needs, so every one abuse, and nobody would say the truth, i dont like twiffy words about these men lazy, why did he noticed them to judge more than he would do of the others his kind? this is the one, but the most important is his unability to see what is different than he other than what should not, blacks are a race that is for sure like women in the truth are of marsh, more you are in real, more you can see beyound yourself at least start with others who are of the same condition than you but with particular characterstics that your mind allowed you to see, more u would feel women emotions and blacks, they have a truth of our condition the best awareness we can reach, learn from their ability to coop with, grooving in the streets, may be they can allow you to be more of getting out of your closing walls and start to see what is real, dont put them down if they dont like to read, they read your souls and they dont lie, maybe they wont reach my goal of freedom in mind but all i feel for them is a deeply sense of respect because of the truth they are

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Interesting thing to note.

I have two friends from Ghana, one from Kenya. None of them care to associate with American blacks, and are very clear about the distinction.

They point to the same issues stated here. Africans consider American blacks to be lazy, unscrupled, and untalented even in the greater majority.

We have instituted a social system of counter racism under policy, and regard this as rectifying “injustices” of the past.

There are two colleges near where I live, that “cater to the black community”, as their slogans go. They have both been involved in enormous scandals, the campus’ look like slums, and only blacks teach at those “institutions”. Perfect example of counter racism when they make race based institutions that don’t expressly deny entrance to others, but create environements intended to keep others away.