Against Dogmatism

Recent disputes here at ILP have centred around a dialectic between the apparently religious and the atheist/scientists. To me, the problem is more one of general virtues of knowledge and belief that anything particular to religion or science.

Dogmatic belief is ultimately the enemy of philosophy, and of imagination. As I’ve stated, I consider imagination a more important aim for dialectic than clarification of thoughts, rationality and suchlike. While critical thinking is important, and all philosophers and thinkers of other kinds should be as well versed as they can be in such techniques, this should never be at the price of unnecessary limitations on imagination and its rhetoric.

So, let us resist dogmatism, both personally and ideologically. Let us embrace at least the possibility of change, of it being otherwise. Let us not lock ourselves into specific ways of thinking as a means to locking out others.

You and I are in agreement in this post. I sincerely think, however, that you are confusing dogmatism, or at least dogmatic beliefs, the very thing that science wishes to eliminate, with religion, and this is where you, and I, the dogmatic and religious, and the scientific atheist, are butting heads.

Again, I’m using dictionary definitions to further clarify my position, as to not get caught up in the semantics of the subject.

Please note the definition I have bolded, because I believe this is where the disagreement lies. The other definitions include references to religion and laws set forth by churches without evidence, and therefore can be excluded in the argument.

The bolded print, however, states:

An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.

This sounds like it fits science like a glove. Science makes authoritative statements about principles and beliefs that are considered to be absolutely true. I think the key difference is that science has emprical evidence and data to back those statements which are true. Along with that, the theories, beliefs, and statements always, always, always must be falsifiable, leaving the possibility that it can be proven false given new data or evidence. Evolution could easily be proven false if one mammal fossil was found before mammals come onto the timeline. Religion, and dogmatic beliefs, aren’t falsifiable, which is why they can be eternally “absolutely true.”

I’d also like to point out that science in no ways stifles the imagination, or at least it shouldn’t. Of course, Albert Einstein used his imagination to create the theory of relativity, which then was verified using mathematics and science.

If it stifles creativity and imagination in any way, it is in the way that we can no longer consider every thought or idea to be equiprobable. We can no longer accept beliefs without any logic or reason to be valid, and this does rule out a lot of possibilities admittedly, but I certainly don’t find this to be any detriment to the human imagination. We still create fictional stories and movies, all the while realizing there is often a distinction between the boundaries of our minds and the boundaries of our realities.

No, it does not. Everything in science is either an a priori philosophical assumption, or an induction from observation. Neither of those is absolutely true, although science does have to make the assumptions as without them, science cannot be done. These assumptions are: 1) that the laws of nature are everywhere constant; 2) that the human mind is capable of understanding them; 3) that the scientific method is the best and most reliable way available to us of determining objective fact and the workings of nature; and 4) that knowledge will never be complete, and so all beliefs must be held tentatively.

Note that this last assumption completely contradicts what you said above. In practice, there are no theories in science that are considered “absolutely true.” Consider Newton’s physics, which was regarded by some as “absolutely true” for a long time – but is now considered obsolete.

No, there is nothing in science that is dogmatic. And there SHOULD be nothing in religion that is, either. In either sphere, dogma is the enemy of truth.

Good post, and I also mentioned exactly what you just said in my above post.

They are falsifiable, hence not absolutely true. We covered that, but I disagree that netwon’s physics is obsolete. Far from it, it’s just obsolete in some frames of reference, like traveling the speed of light, or on a subatomic level. Works just dandy here on the human scale.

Yes, I guess you did. In that case, I can’t figure out what you meant by saying that science presents “absolute truth,” or is “dogmatic.” Can you explain that, please?

For engineering purposes, yes. For scientific purposes, no. Although on a human scale Newton’s predictions are very close, in no actual circumstances except a body at rest are they completely accurate. There are discrepancies in velocity, mass, force, and vector arising in any situation where anything moves. These discrepancies are too small to make any practical difference, but they exist just the same.

My apologies for the misleading language of my post.

I meant that although this definition sounds like it fits like a glove, in actuality it does not. And science does make authoritative statements about principles and beliefs that are considered, by many, to be absolutely true, although we must be reminded that nothing can be “absolutely” true.

Hope that clears things up. Cheers. :smiley:

except for this dogma?

“Everything in science is either an a priori philosophical assumption, or an induction from observation. Neither of those is absolutely true, although science does have to make the assumptions as without them, science cannot be done.”

-Imp

You’re saying every belief system is dogma, which is dogma.

Dogma.

Dogma.

Your way is definitely easier, but not as fun. :frowning:

Dogmatism is no more different than a child that accepts the society as it is, we can never really demarcate dogmatism from mainstream thought, it would be futile to sectarianize or segregate dogmatism but to accept the fact that this abberancy is purely individual…

that depends on your goal…

deluding oneself with a dogmatic system and proclaiming it to be truth is what all religions do… especially “scientific” ones…

-Imp

An article of interest on the dogmatic approach to science that is sometimes found.

http://www.nyas.org/publications/UpdateUnbound.asp?UpdateID=41

"I think the problem is not string theory, per se. It goes deeper, to a whole methodology and style of research. The great physicists of the beginning of the 20th century—Einstein, Bohr, Mach, Boltzmann, Poincare, Schrodinger, Heisenberg—thought of theoretical physics as a philosophical endeavor. They were motivated by philosophical problems, and they often discussed their scientific problems in the light of a philosophical tradition in which they were at home. For them, calculations were secondary to a deepening of their conceptual understanding of nature.

After the success of quantum mechanics in the 1920s, this philosophical way of doing theoretical physics gradually lost out to a more pragmatic, hard-nosed style of research. This is not because all the philosophical problems were solved: to the contrary, quantum theory introduced new philosophical issues, and the resulting controversy has yet to be settled. But the fact that no amount of philosophical argument settled the debate about quantum theory went some way to discrediting the philosophical thinkers. It was felt that while a philosophical approach may have been necessary to invent quantum theory and relativity, thereafter the need was for physicists who could work pragmatically, ignore the foundational problems, accept quantum mechanics as given, and go on to use it. Those who either had no misgivings about quantum theory or were able to put their misgivings to one side were able in the next decades to make many advances all over physics, chemistry, and astronomy.

The shift to a more pragmatic approach to physics was completed when the center of gravity of physics moved to the United States in the 1940s. Feynman, Dyson, Gell-Mann, and Oppenheimer were aware of the unsolved foundational problems, but they taught a style of research in which reflection on them had no place in research.

By the time I studied physics in the 1970s, the transition was complete. When we students raised questions about foundational issues, we were told that no one understood them, but it was not productive to think about that. “Shut up and calculate,” was the mantra."

and

"Those theorists who feel that theories should be background-independent tend to be more philosophical, more in thetradition of Einstein. The pursuit of background-independent approaches to quantum gravity has been pursued by such philosophically sophisticated scientists as John Baez, Chris Isham, Fotini Markopoulou, Carlo Rovelli, and Raphael Sorkin, who are sometimes even invited to speak at philosophy conferences. This is not surprising, because the debate between those who think space has a fixed structure and those who think of it as a network of dynamical relationships goes back to the disputes between Newton and his contemporary, the philosopher Leibniz.

Meanwhile, many of those who continue to reject Einstein’s legacy and work with background-dependent theories are particle physicists who are carrying on the pragmatic, “shut-up-and calculate” legacy in which they were trained. If they hesitate to embrace the lesson of general relativity that space and time are dynamical, it may be because this is a shift that requires some amount of critical reflection in a more philosophical mode.

Thus, I suspect that the crisis is a result of having ignored foundational issues. If this is true, the problems of quantum gravity and unification can only be solved by returning to the older style of research."

siatd,

Do we make a determination of dogmatic definition as differing from individual “absolutes” and those that more practically fit the definition of dogma as having an assigned social value?

Lo and behold, just found a book on Quantum mechanics and metaphysics (of being).

The author is unknown to me, and QM isn’t exactly my specialty either…

Description:

This article is about the question of the nature of the wave function in Quantum Mechanics (QM). All physical theories extract their principles from a “primary philosophy”, allowing the very expression of these principles in a non-mathematical language. We believe that the QM problems find their origin in the fact that, for this theory, until now, this “primary philosophy” has’nt been correctly defined. In one of his after-war books, W. Heisenberg offers an interpretation of the nature of the wave function, based on the Aristotelian notion of “potentia”. We hereafter propose a number of arguments backing up Heisenberg’s ideas and we propose considering Aristotles metaphysics as a serious candidate to this role of “primary philosophy” that’s missing to QM.

Help me understand this statement, if you will.

Dogma is the enemy of truth. But would not truth, as a whole, be absolute and therefore dogmatic?

Good point spake.

Truth is perspective, therefore outside the individual it can be neither absolute nor dogmatic.

I thought about these sort of philosophical traps quite early on.

It seemed to me, for a while at least, that relativism and dogmaticism had to be extinguished in order for philosophical inquiry to continue.

But philosophy is so broad it is almost impossible to say that serious.

Also: shouldn’t the postulation of an idea, which has come from careful analysis and thought and of which is agreed to be true; BE TRUE. Some kind of inductive reality, say. Like “I’m typing on a key board”

Should I not get a little dogmatic and claim it to be true, if only to survive?

The only unfortunate part of saying something like this, and agreeing with it, is that philosophical inquiry kind of goes down the drain.

Many philosophers disagree with Bertrand Russels “problems of induction”, the classic question of “is the table there?”

But if we consider basic (some might say fundemental) inquiry such as the nature of the table to be useless then what is useful?

You claim that morality deserves careful analysis and attention, and should not be subject to dogmaticism in orthodoxy or wherever and yet in the same breath you’re going to be dogmatic about the table?

“The table exists because I can see it” is fine for some philosophers

yet “When a puppy is killed it makes me feel bad so it must be wrong” is not.

This is problematic to me.

Not only that, but the fact that philosophy is said to be the striving for TRUTH, and yet, as far as I’ve gotten at least, philosophy very vague on what TRUTH is or at very least what is CAN be.

If philosophy is the striving for truth through a process that does not allow for any dogmaticism, it must have an a idea of what truth is, either relativistic or objective.

I love philosophy, and am a bit a novice, but these questions are plaguing me.

Any insights?

So, your saying it’s relativistic?

Then why are you interested in philosophy?

If truth is relative to the individual, why inquire about ANYTHING?

Given that the last bit of that statement accurately describes how a scientist views the world, I see no problem here.

While you can argue induction, I’ve yet to see a way in which that can play out as a truly livable philosophy when put into practice. Induction should be used as a shield in philosophy, not as a sword.

Until you start using 8 different means of waking yourself up in the morning, I’ll keep saying that because the alarm clock has worked in the past it is likely to keep working in the future, as long as the batteries have power and you haven’t damaged it in some other way. Is it possible that it will simply cease to function? Of course, but it is statistically unlikely. So much so that it isn’t worth worrying about.