I was referring to the idea that we are born sinners and that Jesus let himself be tortured to death because of our sinful nature. I feel no guilt for loving people, Jesus did not give me guilt for that. But dying in agony for me makes me born in debt. What loving God would come up with such a convoluted mess of guilt and agony?
And then let’s take another look at this. I presume you mean ‘brother’ to be anyone, not a sibling. Though even with siblings that I ‘should’ feel guilt for not loving one is just silly.
That you should love those who hate you is one of the most pernicious ideas in religions.
A natural reaction to being hated is to want that person to move away or to move away from them. If these are not options, to pressure yourself to love them is just cruel. And to pressure others to do it is also cruel.
It depends on what the brother is like and does.
perhaps my views of sin are incorrect
but i attribute sin to the actions/lack thereof of the individual
i don’t want to be semantic too much… but i hear born ‘into sin’, and feel forced to personalize the sin
i can interpret it differently… to say that my environment is consistent with sin… that it’s encompassing, or has been passed from generation to generation
or we can interpret it more strictly, and think of it as breaking a commandment
or we can think of it as ‘i am an entity that is capable of sinning’
which i guess could make sense
but that capability does not imply the execution of the sinful act
… i would posit… can God commit sin? and if so, does God exist in sin?
a question i find more interesting though… and perhaps more applicable is: can i avoid sin?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
to act is to sin, to not act is sin, to avoid acting is sin. can i create an environment in which sin is not the option? (i feel like i’m getting into buddhist ethics here)
i think not
you have sinned, and i have sinned. you’ll continue to sin, and i’ll continue to sin
i’ll try to be good, but i’m gonna stick with my definition of what is good… and even then, i make mistakes… sin is still unavoidable
if i don’t have control, to take blame is wrong
i will still feel guilt and remorse
but my actions are as righteous as yours
who is to say otherwise? go ahead, judge me. God wants you to.
Yes, but the debt you owe is to love your brother. If He died for US,we should be able to mourn together ,pray together ,praise together…
no it doesn’t.you be you and beings intent to cheat humanity will be dealt with by a power much greater than yourself
What is sin?
brevel_monkey…
From what I remember, the Catholic Church does not say that it, itself, washes away original sin - Christ supposedly did that when he became man, lived and died ‘for us’ - it was part of his spiritual mission. The church is only his representative on Earth. And you need not be possessive of your sin and remorse - sin (ugh) how I do hate that word. It is something which we ourselves create either out of our own ignorance and lack of self-awareness that 'this [particular] act can potentially harm" either our self or another. It also comes about from our refusing to take total responsibility for our actions and our unwillingness to love ourselves and others in the correct way - by doing harm to self or others. I don’t necessarily think that forgiveness is something that needs to be ‘earned’ - like some kind of a commodity - that to me would imply/signify that we are ‘still’ in a sense, acting only for ‘ourselves’ and not stepping out of ourself toward the ‘other’ - a pure giving of our self freely, from a sense of love with remorse, to be reconciled to god or neighbor.
[size=150]Being Intent To Cheat Humanity[/size]
GOOD WORDING for the understanding of Being Intent To Cheat Humanity.
I find this response odd. I wasn’t saying it was my job to punish, fix or mete out justice. It is simply a natural and often healthy reaction to dislike and have other negative reactions to people who treat us with hatred or disrespect. The power greater than myself is still quite free to carry out whatever justice it deems correct.
That you should love those who hate you is one of the most pernicious ideas in religions.
they that hate you are lost.in fact them that hate are lost
A natural reaction to being hated is to want that person to move away or to move away from them. If these are not options, to pressure yourself to love them is just cruel. And to pressure others to do it is also cruel.
First we make sure our brother doesn’t harm us then we make sure not to harm them. Love is mutual respect. do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
It depends on what the brother is like and does.
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I think It is a natural response to wonder why someone doesn’t "like me " enough to be cordial if not sociable if they are honest with me, Other than that , they tell me "somethings up with them " so retreat to comfortable distance and watch them. Don’t not like them cause they don’t like you. Prove them and justify self.
Nah. Hatred is a natural reaction. One can get stuck in it. One can deny other feelings, like fear of not getting love and have a habit of hate. But hatred is simply a natural reaction. A woman getting raped who feels hatred during or after is not lost because of those reactions.
That really is a bad idea with some people, Hitler for example. And again, now you are bringing up doing. I am talking about feelings. One can feel hatred when one is mistreated without resorting to violence. Though even a violent response can be fine. Again, a woman being raped who angrily scratches the eyes of her rapists is not doing anything wrong. She need not lie there trying to figure out how she would like to be treated if she was raping someone.
If you can move back, and this is often not a possible reaction, and you don’t feel anger, fine. I am not advocating anger. But if you feel anger, this is fine. Adn given the way the world is, it is not at all always the case that one can move back. Children in abusive homes, workers under an abusive boss, citizens under a dictatorship, and so on.
I did speak of honesty. And honest feelings are not a mirror of the hate reflected but more of a barometer of the yin and yang both seeking to co-exist because one can’t exist without the other.Hate is a product of enviorment and conditioning.not natural but natural to understand why "we"think it is.
Disagree, the way the choice is presented. If there is/was an “original sin,” and if you believe Genesis is an allegory, then the original sin was man’s disobedience to God’s instructions. Why only man and not both women and men? Because woman is a part of man–‘created’ out of Adam’s rib. Humanity, according to the concept of Original Sin, doesn’t bear the guilt of OS. We only ‘know’ the consequences–in other words, we are aware of the consequences of choosing to disobey God’s commandments–we know the difference between good and evil.
Some people choose to believe this means concupiscence, but that’s because they don’t know the meaning of the word–they equate concupiscence with the general meaning of the word ‘sex.’ But, if God wanted man to be ‘fruitful and multiply,’ He cannot have meant sexual abstinence. But, to get back to the OP.
No, we’re not born ‘into sin.’ If anything, we’re born with the potential of learning right from wrong, good from evil, which equates to a choice between listening to God’s commandments or not. We know what the consequences are for disobeying God.
The word content also works.
But let’s not also forget that much of what we call ‘immorality’ really stems from and is a lack of self-awareness and ignorance (which of course doesn’t excuse us from our actions). We just need to begin to realize that every act has repercussions and that we need to take the time to re-examine what ‘we are about’ to do. We have no idea sometimes just how far-reaching the effects of our actions and/or our apathy can extend to and how they may affect ourselves and others. This is where the biblical expression (I think) “The sins of the fathers (and mothers) will be visited upon the children” comes from. When we really think about it, it can have a chilling and sobering effect on us and [hopefully] stop us in our tracks - but sadly, we don’t take the time to envision that journey within our imagination and learn from it - beforehand.
For me, perhaps the only ‘sin’ - and what ‘living in sin’ truly means, is living in ignorance and a lack of self-awareness/self-consciousness…not examining our motives and intentions along the way…and not realizing just what we are fully capable of as human beings, especially as individuals. We may be capable of the most wonderful but at the same time, we may all be capable of the most evil. If we don’t sit down and contemplate this, then we are in danger of jumping in where angels fear to tread and not caring and thus creating more chaos and pain. It takes just a little flicker of that candlelight to break in and to permeate the darkness.
How about sin as a power that takes hold of us, that does not seem to come from us but is in us? It would be a power that we hate but sometimes gladly accept. We find it fascinating and deplorable at the same time. But we believe if we let control us it would destroy us. We feel there is another power in us that will resists it. We are fascinated by what can destroy us, and in moments even feel a hidden desire to be destroyed by it. St. Paul describes this experience in Romans 7, but exaggerates it somewhat.
I think humans have long wondered about their origins, prior to the theory of evolution one particular group thought that as there is evil in the world and it seems there had always been, then there must somehow be evil in our origins.
As they didn’t want to blame god they devised/contrived a story by which man although originally born of god, had by their own means become evil. Naturally as we are all descended from adam and eve then we all have evil stained souls.
Then a chap called Jesus came and impregnated his own mother with himself, then eventually he performed a human sacrifice upon himself to save man. However man didn’t require this because in actual fact the said origins are false, we evolved from animals and don’t have any original sin in our genes.
Conclusion; we are born innocent/ignorant, evil is taught or otherwise arrived at by environmental situations and upbringing etc ~ not inherited.
It’s not what goes in the body that defiles it, but what comes out. Sin is a result of circumstances inescapable and inevitable.
yes we are born a blank canvass that is influenced into who we become but sin conscienceness is inevitable therefore born innocent into sin.Sin begins with that williness to put another down to better position yourself.It’s just that simple. If you love thy brother as thyself you rejoice at others good fortune and not be envious…Sounds simple doesn’t it? to covet not thy neighbors wife
So you agree that all such things are learned, therefore you disagree with the concept of original sin.