all knowing all seing?

Where in the bible does it say that God is all knowing all seeing? Any help would be great!

Right between where it said you should stone gay people and vote for Bush.

lol thanks

Well, it says this:
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

…which I guess sort of covers it. But so what? The Bible is wrong about a lot of stuff, it even promotes evil in places.

That said, if a sentient God does exist, the Bible notwithstanding, I expect He would be omnipotent pretty much by definition–and rational, according to all the evidence at hand.

Perhaps through passages like Luke 12:7?

But it’s not so much about God’s knowledge in the sense of epistemology but rather it’s about God being concerned with even the least among us…

There is also the idea that God knows all that we do, even our slightest transgressions don’t escape God…

I ask because, i was having a discussion about free will and God, but the people i were talking to were picking and choosing the limits of his all knowing ability. My view is that if you except the fact of an all knowing all seeing being that knows what will happen before it happens, then you must also except the fact that free will doesnt exist, because it is as though you are watching a movie you helpped create. The characters in the movie believe they have free will but, in reality they dont because they are just following a script unknow to them(the character, not the actor.)

I agree that if it’s possible to look into the future, and perfectly predict/know all that will transpire–as if history was a line instead of endlessly branching paths–then there can be no freedom.

To me freedom is the possibility to deviate from the predictable course of action, so that freedom is perhaps most apparent in the life that shatters all expectations, scientific or otherwise.

God’s knowledge aside, I think God, in the form of Jesus at least, is one of the best examples of the free life. Everything Jesus did shattered expectations. This is what is notable about him; not his knowledge or power but his way of life (which is perhaps to say what he does with his knowledge and power…).

Freedom presupposes that we act in “the moment” and until that very moment…nothing can be known. Why must we believe or feel that god ultimately knows the endings?

Why is it that human beings must conceive of a god that makes us feel either the most comfortable or the most uncomfortable as was sometimes in the Old Testament?

Why is it that we can’t just sit before a universe, before a God, in silence…just as it were, to sit within God, or surrounded by God, without any preconceived notions whatsoever? Why?

Are we so much the adults that we cannot simply "be’ as little children are playful in a universe forgetful of everything but our playing?

Because play is without responsibility. Play is naive and sometimes destructive. Children hurt themselves and others in their play…

Interesting, the last sentence was unexpected, maybe that is the point behind the japanese philiosphy in anime where kids are the hero. Maybe they are the only ones who are truely free and adults dont like to agree with that. So they must find a way to make it seem as though they themselves are more free than those naive children.

From what i see, children usually get hurt when they to do what they see adults do.

](*,) ](*,) ](*,) Alyoshka…for shame…I was simply speaking of how little children play. so simple without thought of anything…no worries, no grievances, only IN THE MOMENT.

I rather feel that if we are able to play in this way, it might allow us to be more responsible. Play is NOT NAIVE, A.
and yes children do get hurt sometimes in their play…as do adults…but I wasn’t going that deeping into it. I was simply speaking of the simplicity of children and the adults’ need sometimes to be child-like and simple.

Let’s put it in a term you might understand: Christ said "that unless you become as little children, you cannot enter the [kingdom of heaven]. I believe he was there speaking of simplicity, trust, wonderment, living in the moment without regard to the next moment, just living in the moment. Don’t you rather think that this in itself could lead one into the “kingdom” in a matter of speaking. As Hugh Prather said once in his book i think "there is a place where you are not alone…heaven is being there.

I also think that little Jonathan Livingston Seagull said that…and I would agree…HEAVEN IS BEING THERE. :laughing: :unamused: :banana-dance:

Sounds very similar to what Buddha said. Maybe the only way to truely understand the universe for what it is, or could be, you must live in the moment. Children dont care if they do something wrong in a game(not in as a competition, just a friendly game) the first time they play, because another child will tell them how to do it the right way, and then their fun continues.

There is for sure something wonderful about children at play or birds soaring through the air or fields of wheat swaying in the breeze. And part of the wonder is the carefree-ness of these existences, i.e., their “living in the moment” as you put it.

And there is indeed an implicit trust that makes possible or perhaps even defines the carefree life. i.e., Life cannot be carefree or live in the moment unless it trusts that its “daily bread” will be provided.

But that’s just it: Such existences are carefree only because there is a trustworthy existence that makes possible such a carefree attitude.

God is this trustworthy existence par excellence. (For the child, it is more specifically the guardian. For the wheat, it is perhaps the earth and the weather that is depended upon…)

What you describe is the ideal, i.e., for everyone to live in the moment, without worry about the next, like the lilies of the field and the birds of the air. However such an existence is only possible given the existence of a trustworthy type.

It is this trustworthy type that is the most necessary and as such important. It is this trustworthy type, which is necessarily opposed to the child/trusting type, that we are called first and foremost to be by Christ.

So where you say: “if we are able to play in this way, it might allow us to be more responsible”, I say the exact opposite, i.e., our being responsible/trustworthy will enable us to play in this way…

I think if god is perhaps an “all knowing and all seeing” being, this doesn’t rule out the fact of free will. The fact that he might know in advance still doesn’t speak to our not having free will, it only speaks to god’s knowledge of the outcome.

I would say that you might have it backwards here. The movie would imply the end of the person’s life perhaps and then they would see all the ways in which they have not applied their free will, perhaps the script they were following was simply the same script of many others - and that movie they are being shown teaches them the ways in which they did not perceive how free will has been given to us and how we are sometimes not determined to exercise it.

I do see free will and I see that we have ultimately choices that we can make, in any and every moment, even despite the fact that they may at times be influenced by past history. We can also determine to become more aware and make conscious choices based on the moment and our perceptions in the moment, as opposed to being influenced by them.

Here - in my very favorite psalm: 139:

1 O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
5 You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.

7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9 If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
12 even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. [1]
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand.
I awake, and I am still with you.

19 Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
20 They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain! [2]
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
22 I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.
(I do however have such a problem with this verse though
I do not see a God who would have us hate, for any reason)

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts! [3]
24 And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting! [4]

That more than implies an all-know and all-seeing God…and an All Present God though I cannot know for sure that god is that! These words to me also do not imply that there is no free will.

alyoshka:

Ah, yes, for sure…and I am beginning to think perhaps with the above beautiful description that you just gave, that I am you but forgot that I am you. Observing all of this is simply “being” and this is when we are at our most human.

For many people, yes, I grant you that the above is true. But aren’t there perhaps moments when we can be so much “in the moment” or going with the flow, so to speak, that we have no need of “trusting that our daily bread will be provided”. I think that a true living breathing moment has no need for trust, no need for anything, just simply “being”. This is what I was talking about above.

Okay you are talking “daily bread” here – an expression that perhaps everything that is needed materialistically, spiritually, and otherwise, will be given, no matter what…by either God or the universe So, your ideal of “trustworthy” stems more from an inherent attitude of the spirit, which to me would follow that no matter what is going on around someone with that kind of spirit, whether they are receiving their “daily bread” or not, whether the whole world is in chaos or not, they will remain inherently the same, nothing can move them or fluster them, because they have this great inner spirit, this trust. So, are we basically saying the same here?

All we can say, alyoshka, is that for you “God is this trustworthy existence”…though I am not saying here that it is not so, just that each person has their own perspective. For the child, yes, it ought to be though it isn’t always…for the wheat, well, I think that we all, everyone and everything below the earth, including outer space and above the earth, including deep space, has its own inner intelligence already given that we resonate to. I need coffee.

Why do you sound familiar? :laughing: Yes and I agree with you here, it is the ideal but we can have these moments, more and more, if we remain aware of our surroundings and even our very heartbeat and simply get lost and surrender ourselves to the moments. As I said, it isn’t necessarily about trust…but it would be just about sensing our place in this universe and diving into it.

Ah, but no, to me, it is exactly the child trusting type that we are called to be by Christ. Maybe I am just not understanding what you mean here.

Hmmm I don’t know about that, alyoshka…I rather think that it is the child within us that leads us. Can’t you just sense that?

The way in which you say it, A, I am not so sure that the child would not get lost in our need to be responsible and trustworthy. I am certainly not saying here that we should behave as children with no sense of responsibility toward our lives only that there is a need for child-likeness in us. I guess it would all depend on how the adult goes about being responsible and trustworthy and what that means to him/her. To some, that might imply a burden and where is the beautiful innocent wondering trusting living-in-the-moment child in that?

Thank you.