An argument for a new normative theory (and a PhD thesis)

[phyllo]

Phyllo: Any consequentialist account of morality is going to determine whether an action was immoral based on it’s consequences, or it’s likely consequences if we are expected-value rather than actual-value consequentialists.

This doesn’t, in any way, address what I posted.

[James_S_Saint]

@Daniel McKay

That’s because “causing” you to spend a lot more money than was otherwise necessary would need enormous unpicking in order to be discussed.

I have to assume that was addressing this:

@James S Saint

You left out:

@James S Saint

What if he is just causing you to spend a lot more money than was otherwise necessary?

So, what does “unpicking” mean?? Putting apples back onto the tree?

@Daniel McKay

That is definitely not true. If I pay you a million dollars then I haven’t affected your ability to choose to continue the function of your body, unless you are in some circumstance where you need that million dollars in order to do so.

Giving someone a million dollars, or taking it away, alters their option in uncountable ways which eventually determines the end of their life. Are you so young as to have never figured that out?

@Daniel McKay

Likewise if I sell you something that costs a million dollars, I haven’t violated your ability to choose to continue to be healthy, unless you have spent your last penny on this thing and are now about to starve.

Gyahd, how naive.

@Daniel McKay

Even then, it would be very odd to say that I have made you starve, though I may be obligated to spend some of my new million dollars on some food for you to prevent you from doing so.

You seem to be one of those new age liberals who can’t comprehend why he is getting sued by another new age liberal.

Okay, so you couldn’t see that train of thought either and at this point are probably just going to try to defend your stance regardless of anything said. But, since I’ve gone this far…

Can you see and agree to the FACT that all actions and reactions are at least indirectly related? It is one of the principles in Science, if you aren’t aware. And socially that thought gave rise to the meme:
“What a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive”.

[Daniel_McKay]

Phyllo: I disagree, I think it addresses your criticism that the morality of a lie is only obvious in hindsight fairly well.

James: Unpicking is a piece of slightly metaphorical language meant to invoke, I believe, the thought of a knot or a stitched garment. In this case I mean that we would have to discuss what you mean by “cause” and “otherwise necessary” in much more depth in order to make sense of what you were asking.

Having a million dollars does indeed alter my options. As for “ultimately determining the end of my life”, that seems like a big claim to make. There is certainly a correlation between better health outcomes and being wealthy, but there are a huge number of reasons for that. Some of them involve being able to afford private healthcare, and would be an excellent argument for improving the public health sector especially in places like America (which I assume you are from as you used the phrase “new age liberal”). Point being, the extent to which having money affects your ability to avoid violations of your freedom is interesting and complicated, but much in the same way that opening a skate park is not wrong, though it may lead to some people getting hurt, as they have chosen to take that risk, it is not wrong of me to sell you something with your consent, or even to increase the costs of things you want, so long as you are not coerced or forced to buy those things from me.

I don’t think I know exactly what a “new age liberal” is, but I suspect I’m not one.

I saw your train of thought, I just think it is wrong.

[phyllo]

Phyllo: I disagree, I think it addresses your criticism that the morality of a lie is only obvious in hindsight fairly well.

Obviously you disagree, if you had agreed then you would have written something else.

[James_S_Saint]

@James S Saint

Can you see and agree to the FACT that all actions and reactions are at least indirectly related? It is one of the principles in Science, if you aren’t aware. And socially that thought gave rise to the meme:
“What a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive”.