I found this in a re-reading of Chuang Tzu the other night, and thought perhaps it would be interesting here given some of the current threads. Your comments are invited.
“Trying to use what isn’t equal to produce equality is to be equally unequal. Trying to prove something by something uncertain is only certain to make things uncertain. The person whose eyesight is clear and thinks he understands is victim to these sights, whereas the one who is guided by the spirit perceives the reality. That there is a difference between what we see with our eyes and what we know through our spirit is a wisdom from long ago. But the fool relies upon his eyes and loses himself in what is merely human, and eveything he does is just a facade - how sad!”
Yes of course. Apologies for the omission. Chuang Tzu was one of three recognized founders of Taoist philosophy. The three being Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, and Lieh Tzu. Both Lao Tzu and Lieh Tzu may be fictional characters since their supposed writings came hundreds of years after their guestimated lifetimes. Chuang Tzu and his writings are reasonably well confirmed and he lived in the mid fourth century BC. His writings are well received by those who study Taoism as his ‘stories’ are a bit more explanatory than the rather terse Te Tao Ching attributed to Lau Tzu.
The nature of things
is often under the surface.
The character of people
needs time to become apparent.
Preparation is everything
and patience to let things become.
The modern man hurries
because he wants to cover his folly.
He is nervous
because he knows
people will see through
his illusions.
The modern man is
without character.
He is all surface
but has no heart.
He who has no heart
has no place to preserve
what is good and sound
and is doomed to be ever searching.
For the same reason I am interested in pre-platonic greek thinkers, the gnostics, …
The birthing of philosophy and religion seem’s to have coincided with man’s progress (?) from tribal encampments to organized city states. I find the early philosophical writings to have greater clarity as they seem to have been more focused on the nature of man and mind and less on the results of man and mind that we see in modern philosophy. They were building the base, not elegant castles into the sky.
Like many of my generation, I started my studies somewhere in the middle. It was a number of years before I had enough sense to begin at the beginning. I could have saved myself a whole bunch of years…
“He who has no heart
has no place to preserve
what is good and sound
and is doomed to be ever searching.”
Sounds very… Romantic.
First of all, nobody is doomed. And just what is “good and sound”? Simple, whatever you think as good and sound. Even if you get what you think is good and sound, over time, you’ll find it boring and stupid, unless you force youself into some kind of a Budhist monk’s state. Life is about search and seek, I take that away from you, you’re done.
“He who has a normal heart,
has no place to preserve,
what he wanted,
and is supposed to be ever searching.”
JT:
I bow to your spirit. But you’ve got to sort out your pronouciation of Chinese first.
Unfortunately there are millions who are predestined to have an unhappy end, which is my use of the word, and much of this lies in the lack of education, perspectives and naturally as a consequence in the west, a lack of inner peace and assuredness. ‘Children need roots early on, and wings when they’re grown.’ Millions are driven into activity that uses up resources and satisfies only for a moment. The Tao is virtually the opposite to our modern society.
The modern man expends a great deal of energy and time trying to do everything and end up achieving nothing. On the other end of the spectrum, the Sage seems not to do much at all and yet achieves whatever he wants. This mystery is possible, indeed unavoidable, when one is in tune with the Tao.
The more you learn, the more you realize there’s still so much more to learn. This tends to make you humble. Arrogance and egotism come from ignorance - knowing a little and assuming to know a lot - but there is a limit to what we can understand through rationality and reasoning. To transcend that limit, we need to engage our intuition fully. This is the key to ‘good and sound’ insights as opposed to knowledge, and the difference between living the Tao and reading all about it.
The development of what is commonly regarded as ‘virtue’ is one’s chief task. This is called the “Three Jewels” - compassion, moderation and humility. This is to be preserved.
First of all, I’m not onto anything too offensive here.
It is obvious to me that you have strong believes in morality, as most of us do. However, I think that you could reply to others’ posts, without expressing too much of your thoughts on morality, because they usually have nothing to do with the philosophy related content of the posts. And frankly, I personally find that kind of comments rather deeply offensive, much more offensive swear words.
So you’re “humble”? Certainly not in some of your posts. So you have “inner peace”? Maybe, but it is the result of fighting against your own humanity. As you have suggested, humanity is significant in leading a satisfactory life. So why fight it? You think a lot of people end up unhappy? Absolutely, and I think they are unlucky people, not people who absolutely deserve it. They failed to find happiness, in their own ways, or in other people’s ways. You might have found happiness in your way, but it is only you, or people who like you that can. So, recognise the variaty at this level of humanity, and drop the mission of saving the world, if you happen to have it.
In my previous post, I tried to get this opinion across: life is ever searching. You’ll know where I stand on this if you read some of my posts in other forums. I expected arguments from you, against my stand. But disappointingly, in your reply no such arguments were written, instead, there is full of comments on my knowledgibily and morality. Is because words such as “simply” in that particular post of mine offended you so much? I mean no arrogance by languages like that, if you just interpret in that way, I have no more to say.
I don’t object as much to you defining me as ignorant, SIMPLY because that relative to some of your guys here on the forum, I believe I am. Who am I to say that I’m a philosophier, while my degree subject isn’t Philospphy and the fact that I just turned 19?
I’m not sure whether you are talking about my last reply to your post or some other reply. What do you expect me to answer to you postings?
I am ‘humbled’ by the fact that there is still so much more to learn, perhaps I am not as meek as some would have me, and my words may seem to be uncourteous, but that is a problem with the written word as against speaking to one another.
I don’t know where you get the idea that I fight my own humanity - what do you mean with humanity? - Charity? Kindness? Forgiveness? Feelings? Emotions? Compassion? I’m a bit uncertain here.
I regret that people end up unhappy and witness it every day, working as I do in an elderly Care home. I have a lot to do with people looking for help, young and older people who can’t find work. Amongst people who have ‘helper’ Jobs there is a high rate of people looking for help. So I’m quite familiar with that.
Agreed, since knowing is restricted to a very small part of our perception. But there are intuitive insights that can be preserved, which will help you through life. At nineteen, you are younger than my son and you will have a lot of searching to do - but try to retain the insight you gain along the way and you may prevent yourself from becoming bitter.
Ignorance is the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed - if you don’t make that into a philosophy, your ignorance will only be a matter of time. What is worse, is when someone enters a discussion ‘knowing a little and assuming to know a lot’ - but that is usually only a phase and it is normal for the older people here to assist the ending of that phase by pointing it out.
It’s all part of growing up.
All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful,
and in doing this they suggest what ugliness is;
they all know the skill of the skilful,
and in doing this they suggest what the want of skill is.
So it is that existence and non-existence
give birth the one to the other;
that difficulty and ease produce the one the other;
that length and shortness fashion out the one the figure of the other;
that height and lowness arise from the contrast of the one with the other;
that the musical notes and tones
become harmonious through the relation of one with another;
and that being before and behind give the idea of one following another.
Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and
conveys his instructions without the use of speech.
What is the state of grown up? As you have said youself, the more you learn the more you realise that there is much more to learn. So, when is the stage of knowing enough?
I find bitterness as useless as you do. To learn and observe, is the exact reason why I’m here on the forum. I think I read much more than I post here. Entering a disscusion without much knowledge about the subject being discused is stupid. Am I calling myself stupid? Maybe! But how are you supposed to know how much you know about things, and how are you supposed to learn more about things, if you have a quite world of your own?
I have already learnt something here since pacitipating on the website, I look forward to learn more.
Some real interesting stuff here, the last posts are related to the first but my first post will not be related to the last post. (well it will but only in one way)
uniqor,
not that I’m trying to prove you wrong, BUT:
vs me, who I admit that I post and read alot. I’m certainly with the amount of posts I have not going to claim something like you did though.
I’ve posted about 8 fewer posts per day than you, if we had joined the same day you’d have about 750 posts today. So you could say that you post and read equally, but not that you read more than you post.
just an observation.
I would certainly say Yes undoubtedly there are alot of new posts on the forums with people comparing apples to mini blinds. It’s ridiculous.
Since I neither speak or write any of the Chinese languages, I rely on whatever romanization scheme is used by the translator(s) of whatever I’m reading. Typically, the spelling and attendant pronouciation is either Pinyin or Wade-Giles, or sometimes Gwoyeu Romatzyh. It’s tough being a whitey.
Searching and seeking. That is true enough. The dilemma is getting behind the world’s illusions and, if that weren’t enough, our own delusions.
We always have the right answer. It’s just that much of the time we fail to ask the right question.
What Bob is suggesting is the possibility that the answers may lie right in front of us only to be ignored because we’re too busy searching and seeking.
I signed onto this forum with the name tentative. That was a carefully though out description of a position, as far as words will allow. Bob and a few others intuitively understood that. Searching and seeking? Yes, but perhaps less for “knowing” and more for the wisdom and understanding that trancends language and all of our knowing. Do we use the power of reason and scientific study? Of course we do. But there is something beyond that which we know or can know.
There isn’t anyone who come’s to this forum who doesn’t have the questions about that which is beyond reason and ‘knowing’. If it were otherwise, what are they doing here?
Inspired by Chuang Tzu, I think that the religious or the spiritual is the insight that we receive when we are prepared to slow down and become deliberate in our expression, whether in word or deed. In fact it would mean that such expression is withheld until insight is received. Therefore the sage remains silent, awaiting the coming of a revelation before he speaks.
These moments of insight are common to Prophets and Sages and are commonly considered a special, yes, even a divine moment. Whether we hear on a mountain, or wrestle in the night, whether we meditate beneath a Lotusplant or have a vision in a prison-cell, it is the ‘kairos’ of insight and time to comprehend.
If we can acknowledge this acquired moment and give it attention, it can be more fruitful than the aquisition of knowledge, because we become aware of how to use what knowledge or abilities we have. For example, we receive a perception of the otherwise unrecognised character of a situation, which we very often can only describe figuratively, because it is so very difficult to clothe in rational language. We perceive something unsaid, and perhaps unseen by others, but which has a very deep meaning for all.
No, no, no! I had written a response and ‘dumb thumb’ on the keyboard had it so garbled that I got pissed and took it all off. The nevermind comment was directed at me. It didn’t dawn on me that you might see that as a comment on your post. How funny! If we needed an example of the limitations of language… Ok, I’ve stopped laughing now and I will fulfill my obligation for a responsible response.
And this is why I find the Tao to be so insightful. It isn’t that we do not use reason and knowledge as far as we are able, but there is always that (state of consciousness?) something that goes beyond reason, knowledge, and language. For lack of a better expression, I call it intuitive understanding. But it’s more than that, I just don’t know how get it across. (failure to communicate) Whatever it is I just wish I had more of it and that it happened more often. It’s terrible to both have a feeble mind and to know it.
I find that faltering language is as communicative as formally ‘correct’ language. The problem is that we have a medium where a ‘dumb thumb’ hinders that communication. It is the experience that I tried to sum up in a quote from a favourite German theologian once: “Do we have truth - even the truth about ourselves - as firmly as we can hold a rock? Or is truth more like a star that shines in our soul for a few hours, only to fade with the morning sun, leaving us waiting for it to return?”
That ‘star’ that has lent it’s beams for a few hours, perhaps even only a few minutes, is blended out by the light of day, and everyday life moves in and takes over. That moment was important, but has become ephemeral, fleeting and illusive - was it real? Of course it was, it was so very real that our hearts were beating all the harder because of it! Our nerves gave us a thrill as the reacted to this reality and yet it remains something we have to wait for.
So would I, and there is much to be found in the wisdom of Tao, even if I cannot follow the ‘Way’ formally. The intuition that perceives the insight given to it is all the more enlightened for it.
