S- …Why, people have never asked my side of the story. From the beginning they have taken it on faith that all that is said of me must be true. True! Yet the record speaks for itself.O- What do you mean?
S- People have this incomplete conception of God. I know better. I was there. I ask: why is Adam’s sin placed on his Freewill?
O- Well, I suppose because he was given a choice and chose not to obey.
S- A choice is when one has two possible courses of actions one might take. Not on the pain of death. If one is told either do this or you die, then you’re determined to do that you are told to do.
O- You could choose to die, which Adam must have done.
S- Adam did not.
O- Why not?
S- Adam did not have a concept of value, of good and bad, or good and evil, and therefore he could not chose but did that which God had predisposed him to do. had he possessed innately, a concept of value, he might have possessed a preferrence, a preferred state to which he could guide his action. Without the moral guide, he had no more guilt than a beast. he could not disobey because he could not as well obey.O- Then why was he given a command?
S- It was a lie. God had an interest in keeping all his creations lower than himself. he kicked him out of Paradise because man had become like God. More dangerous to God is knowledge than even eternal life itself. That is why He warned man about the Tree of Knowledge and not the Tree of Life. Keep that in mind as you pine for Heaven, for Thou shall lose what you hold dear…your precious humanity.
i love fairy tales.
And since Satan is the father of all liars we should believe him because…? I could correct this starting about line S3.
lol
Omar,
I have to say, That was rather Good.
Kingdaddy,
You forgette God named Satan the Father of lie’s So if you take into account Omar’s story God was merly trying to cover his track’s so Human’s would not realize the truth and continue to worship him Blind of the Knowledge that would free them of their bond’s and alow them to become there own master’s rather than willing slave’s.
Is this what you had in mind to point out Omar?
The Pen is Far mightier than the sword
A wound from flesh may be forgiven, But a wound of the spirit is everlasting…
I don’t think knowledge or eternal life are as big a threat to “God”, as sanity would be, in bible terms. After all, if people in a “faith” were completely lucid, focusing on the most important things first, they would not obsess over “why”, and focus only upon “how”, in this lifetime, right now, physically.
Submission to fantasm, is a loss of all self. The AIDs virus, is a perfect example, of how vary harmful things can evolve in nature, and then spread, spread, spread, destroy, reduce, retard, destroy.
Here comes God… Here he comes. Preach the word!!! Spread the “truth”! Feel guilty about your own nature. Call it sin. Suppress. Lie. Lie again. And enslave to your own ideas. The body, of all things, dies and hurts for the sake of an idea, which it created, much like a cancerous lump, these all-mighty ones, in need of nothing, demand that you, having little, and in need of much, give them your entire life, through belief, and faith, and service, and respect, and admoration.
Let the blooded dominoes fall.
Humans die most often due to their own actions and misactions.
The wars. The suicides. The neglect. The inequal distribution of food and water. It was ALL a human idea. Lovers of death, focusing life upon life, only so that it can die again, and again.
Death is allowed.
Life is enforced.
One is constantly striving.
The other, naturally becomes, if left alone.
Thus, I see a curse, a mechanical form, doing nothing other than expanding and contracting, and contagiousness is its only meaning, whilst the whole order of what previously was – is faught against, even though this one pathetic world is far too small to even be seen when compared to this one sun, a small star, it is, of the many trillions of stars and worlds.
And now, men, living only for the sake of lies, preach loudly the opposite. They saw the earth is the center of the universe, the center of God’s concern, the center of God’s works, and man, in God’s image, because “God” is the thought which oppresses nature most. He claims to own and possess all things, adding a selfish, stupid and petty ego, to what has no ego, no desire, no will, no interferance, all peace and all freedom, as it is bound to no thought or desire.
Again, a curse onto himself, is his own cravings and fantasies, when they never once portrayed actual reality.
===================
When God created Adam, he was to be a perfect symbol of God. God did not make man and woman at the same time because God created His image in a single man with masculine and feminine properties united as one not divided which is the image of God. Adam with his gift of free will saw 2 beings of himself: the paradisesical and one belonging to this world. Then came the command. God forbid Adam to lust after earthly fruits, because he had no necessity of them. But he disobeyed. He continued to imagine earthly power. He could no longer obey the will of God. Genesis 2:20 and 21. “…the man Adam gave names to all the livestock…but for Adam no suitable helper was found. So God caused man to fall into a deep sleep.”
Genesis 2:22…then the Lord God made a woman…
See here, God still loves Adam…God gave Adam a suitable helper, what he wanted, an earthly woman. And the image of God was destroyed. 
Man and woman became mortal beings.
God still loves us. He wants us to go back to Him, but we must work so hard. There are many paths that lead to the one and only narrow path to Him.
Know Thyself.
We cannot know God intellectually. Or by reasoniing.
We can only know God personally.
He is continually speaking to us.
But like Adam we chose to be earthly.
Let God enter your hearts.
Please listen to Him.
And the Devil said to me:
"What a wretched state I find myself in. Humanity calls me the Father of Lies. What prejudice. On who’s word do they judge me? Suddenly it is in the Bible and therefore it must be true? They are quick to accept God as good and me as evil, even before they expeience a thing, before they even read the Bible, biased as it is, still containing evidence that should change their simplistic outlook on it all.
I ask: What did I do, but tell the truth to men and God?
They find me a liar by the most absurd arguments and caprice.
To those that fancy that they could correct the Devil, I say: Roll the dice and take your chances.
To the others let me add to my story, which is by the way a first hand account. Adam did not have freewill. In fact the entire human race has never had free will. Adam was a born servant. Freewill is a predicate of God alone. Even I cannot claim to be free.
O- But devil, we were created in God’s image, were we not? Therefore, did that not also include freewill?
S- Dear mortal with your reason and arguments…haven’t digested compleatly that fruit have you? Never mind. Consider freewill. Were man free, God omnipotent could not be, nor omniscent, for your will would be free from his interference and he could not know what you would choose, if your choice is predicated as free.
O- But could not God will that such a quality existed in mankind?Could not God, for his own pleasure, withdraw himself from the affairs of men, so that we could be free by His choice not to know or to will over us, though indeed He could?
S- Hah, Hah, Hah!!! I love that spunk! You got moxy! But God could not go against His own nature. He is God! And even if God decided, for His own amusement, like a little girl, to close His “eyes” and let you play as if He could not see and control what you do, your freedom then is no real freedom but make-believe. You’re free in as much as God allows…which is the same as not-free.
But listen to this… “Then came the command. God forbid Adam to lust after earthly fruits, because he had no necessity of them.”
Earthly fruits? Since when was a fruit capable of giving a change in one’s essense? I was there; He prohibited only one fruit and it was one of the two in that garden which was not of the earth, but of God. It was His Tree. It was not his lust, as you call it, his hunger really, but that Adam knew and respected no bounds…not even as set by God. But could you blame him? What could Adam know about “death”. What signified could accompany that signifier?
Listen to this: “God still loves us.” Buahahaha!!!
O- Why are you laughing?
S- Can’t you see? Just look around you. Hurricanes, Tsunamies, Earthquakes, Cancer, birth deformities…even down to the common mosquito. Man suffers every where and yet men talk of God’s “love”…
O- Personally, Satan, I believe that such lamentations about natural disasters and health defects do not demonstrate that God does not love us. He might simply love us in a very different way than what you consider “love”. And would not you agree with my friend justly, who says:
“We cannot know God intellectually. Or by reasoniing.”
Perhaps you never got to know God personally, Satan.
S- I ask you then what can we mean when we say that a father loves his children. Can I place as loving both he that comforted his child and gave him honey, with another that scraped the child’s flesh and gave him vinegar? If you question the love of the later then I ask, as you do, if you “know” that father personally? I call a spade a spade, and I call suffering what is suffering…if I could not then what would be the use of Hell. I know, better than all the wrath of God against the great majority of mankind, whom he sees as vessels made for destruction. I should know, for I do his dirty work.
O- But doesn’t God speak to us? Does it not matter that we open our hearts to Him?
S- No. I receive many like you down in Hell, who still scratch their heads as for why they belong there in Hell. It is by God’s choice, not their own… I have even seen little children there.
O- What?! impossible!!!
S- Are thou now God? Can the creature reproach it’s Creator? No. That’s impossible. God loves and hates by his own unfathomable wisdom…What? Now ye’ want reasons when not long ago you asked for my divorce from any notion that God could be reasoned with? That he could only be known personally but not held against any standard of morality…that is, human morality? And now, listen to yourself, biting at me, biting at your good God, who in His goodness , (why should it be to your good is beyond even me) decided that some should be born for no other reason that they be destroyed for His glory.
O- I object to this line of theology.
S- On what grounds? It is all there, but many simply refuse to read what is disagreable to them and read only that which allows them their fantasy. They call the other parts difficult or obscure and make them out to be metaphors, not because they are, but because they must be if one is to keep on believing in God’s “Love”.
O- No wonder they call you a liar…
S- The better to maintain their illusions of the “truth”…
============
If Adam was created after the form of the Eternal, he would not need earthly fruits: power, control of the earth. He thought he could eat off the paradiseisiacal fruit and the forbidden fruit of good and evil. He wanted to be lord and live forever. It was his lust(I don’t mean sexual lust) of power and control of the earth that had brought the earthly quality into the pure eternal quality therefore his divine image disappeared and the earthly image appeared.
================
Are you blaming God for hurricanes, tsunamies, earthwquakes, cancers, deformities? Then I think you need to review science. Didn’t science explain the causes of earthquakes that can also form tsunamies. Is Cancer also caused by God and so man plays no part in bringing about these conditions? You smoke and smoke and destroys your lungs and blame God for the destruction? Drink alcohol and drink more and blame God when your liver malfunctions? Pregnant mothers are they not to be blamed also if they didn’t have prenatal cares, doesn’t also heredity plays a role in birth deformities? These things happen, but there are also nice things that are happening every day.
============
Can you explain God? can you describe God? can we understand God?what is your concept of God? is it the same as every body else? meditation is one way of experiencing God. Do you do that? personal experience with God is just that, a personal and intimate experience with God that is not accessible by anyone else it is yours alone, but that anyone else has equal access and able to experience God.
=============
Both fathers displayed love. But don’t give them honey all the time. Let them find honey for themselves. Don’t blame God for everything. His teaching was to love one another, not destroy one another.
===============
I agree that we should open our hearts to Him. Hell. What is hell? What happens in hell? is this a place, a condition, and what or who goes to hell? Surely not the physical body for they are buried or cremated. What then? The soul? According to my dictionary, a soul is immaterial, non physical, so how can hell destroy that which is not physical?
===========
I disagree that one should be born to be destroyed for His glory. I think we are born to experience God’s love, to re-ascend to His love. To remarry with God and divorce Him no more.
And the Devil spoke to me…:
What do you think of these ideas given by Justly?
O- I will not divulge to you my reactions…
S- When you have been around as long as I you don’t need to ask questions to which you already know the answer, for even now it is plain in your face what you seek to conceal. But I do it out of politeness…no one can accuse me of being impolite. Well…have it your way. Listen to this:
“If Adam was created after the form of the Eternal, he would not need earthly fruits: power, control of the earth.”
S- Such thoughts. In this man is more like myself than they are like God, that is for sure…though they are more credulous just the same, such is their selfishness. But he has not questioned enough the narration he believes in.
To be sure there are two creation narrations and they tell a different story than he tells, so there might be a third?
In the first story it does not speak of any forbidden fruit. It does say:
“29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.”
Clearly what one gives as food, one gives to those who must eat, or need to eat. I do not believe Justly would give green leaves or fruit to a rock or to a Spirit. Man was created in the likeness of God, yet that similarity, that likeness, is left quite ambiguous. But it is quite clear that I can create a statute in my likeness, but that does not make it a devil.
O- So in what way would you say we are “like” God.
S- In power. You are dominators. You are gods to Pharaoh, to the birds, fish and earth’s land animals. Everything is under thy feet as thou are thyself under God’s feet…in your brutality towards the animals and towards the earth itself. But you were made to eat, and your inventor knowing this provided for fruits and vegestables that you could eat-- even if your inventor did not need to eat, that does not mean that you’re not made in His image…“Image” not “essense”, remember that. A manequin is made in the likeness of man, in man’s image, but is the same in it’s essense to man.
Some simply do not understand my clear argumentation. Outright, from prejudice, they take them as lies…
O- Maybe they are not lies, but certainly sophisms–
S- You lack even the vaguest notion of what that actually means. Sometimes I believe that you are worst than all the christians and neo-gnostics that plaster their imagination on this site. Let me again quote the filth that has bee raised as a counter argument to my beautiful explanations and allegories. He says:
“Are you blaming God for hurricanes, tsunamies, earthwquakes, cancers, deformities? Then I think you need to review science. Didn’t science explain the causes of earthquakes that can also form tsunamies. Is Cancer also caused by God and so man plays no part in bringing about these conditions? You smoke and smoke and destroys your lungs and blame God for the destruction? Drink alcohol and drink more and blame God when your liver malfunctions? Pregnant mothers are they not to be blamed also if they didn’t have prenatal cares, doesn’t also heredity plays a role in birth deformities? These things happen, but there are also nice things that are happening every day.”
S- I ask you if God is God, or is there are other Gods by Him, with whom He must contend. Perhaps there is a God of pain and Suffering just as He is the God of Good and happiness.
O- Isn’t that what you are in the final analysis?
S- What? I am no God–
O- Aren’t you the Master of the Earth?
S- I am a governor of a province of the empire, appointed by the emperor, not the emperor of the empire, or the rebel that has taken hostage a village.
O- But when bad things happen to mankind you’re involved in them.
S- Well…I might have taken a few liberties with the destinies of men, but only because I was permitted to do so by the giver of fates. Consider for example that I did afflict Job, but only to the extent that God allowed. Had that permission not been granted, I would not have dared to do a thing to any of his hairs. Consider the fact that the sanction of power must always be present in the afflictions of men.
O- What do you mean?
S- That men suffer all the time, even by your own hands, but wherever that is and whenever that occurs, you can be sure that power rests in the dispenser of woe only indirectly: “By the power vested in me by the…”
Who brings the rain in the end? Is it I? No. yet people die from flooding caused by rain…His rain. I wash my hands of the many innocent deaths during the deluge. My very existence is not due to my own power, for God is clearly stronger and could end my days immediately, but my very existence then, as noxious as it might be for the well being of men, is willed by God, allowed by God, and therefore what one allows, though one could prevent, becomes their responsibility. They hanged many men at the Nuremberg trials that had not actually killed a single jew, but who had allowed it to happen, who had even given the orders that it should be so, or who did not put a stop to what they could have stopped; therefore the court found them morally responsible for the deaths of millions.
I did not bring forth arguments against God based on what men and women do do to themselves, but what occurs to them besides themselves. Science cannot tell justly that it was not God who willed the storm or the earthquake. Science is silenced by my arguments. They may say that it is in accordance with the laws of nature. yet the Laws of Nature were given by God, just as the law of the land was given by a court or a king, or whatever other political body held the power of arms in the land. No stone quakes other than as conceptualized by God.
But why these questions:
Can you explain God? can you describe God? can we understand God?what is your concept of God? is it the same as every body else?
S- The man asks me to explain God and describe Him, and only then does it occur to him that he might not be suited for the task. My concept of God is not like anyone else’s. I was there. I am immortal. it is not revelation which I give but first hand account.
O- Stop right there. You just came in here and told me that you were the Devil. How can I know that? You might just be one crazy old man who has read the Bible for too long.
S- How about this? [His fingers burst into fire]
O- So? Perhaps you know magic, but we had witches. Or you might be an alien…
S- You’re so right. How could you know?! So you must agree that all of justly’s questions are rhetorical.
O- No, but he would have to take your answers with a grain of faith…
S- Ha,ha,ha,ha!!! Well put, well put. I’ll tell you: You can ask the same questions about any man you meet on the street: Can you explain Joe? can you describe Joe? can we understand Joe?what is your concept of Joe? is it the same as every body else?
O- But Joe, as you call the man, would be just another man like myself and so I could indeed describe him by a simple imagination and introspection.
S- Don’t leave out a bit of faith, because no necessity exists that Joe is like you or that for that matter you are like anyone else. It is perfectly conceivable that you’re indeed unique and that no group, race, or species contains you entirely. Thus explanations given of others based on what you observe in yourself carry you well beyond the evident.
O- Oh so what? Let a little faith enter the game. let’s accomplish a bit even if based on faith. It is a conditioned faith in any case. So why can’t you explain God or describe Him to us since yopu claim to know so much.
S- isn’t that which I have tried to do? But you’re all to prejudiced and could not conceive of my words as true. It would be a waste of my time, and even for the eternals, time is prescios. I have seen everything under the sun and know that such descriptions and explanations would fall on deaf ears because of their own bias and interests. My description and explanations are like acid and like a very bright light directly to the eyes. It is only human that you should react to such light by closing your eyes. One sees best in the twilight.
But read what justly has said. How can he understand the gospel of the Devil, of Lucifer, the bringer of llight, when he is so proud that he rathers affirm a contradiction than agree with me on what is most obvious in the light of reason?
“Both fathers displayed love.”
The father that scraped his childs flesh and gave him vinegar to drink really loved his son? Do you agree with this?
O- I believe that justly meant to say that certain pains build up character, and that in what might presently strikes us as a bad thing, as an evil, later on we will view as a blessing in disguise…
S- Only for those who live to tell the tale or reminisce on their live of pain. What about those who die? What about the 23 year old jewish girl that was shot in the head. has time dispelled the horrors of the holocaust.
O- But we caused the holocaust.
S- Oh yes. back to technicalities and grand illusions of freedom. What about the Back Plague? What about the Little Ice Age? Oh to that you’re quiet huh?
O- Don’t you think that we do blame too much on God? That we shackle God to our own desires rather than His. Surely you can find an old type of wisdom that says: Don’t blame God for everything.
S- I find only decadence. Indeed I ask, why would you worship God then? Why would you offer sacrifices and prayer? Why say that God is omnipotent and then say:…but that does not mean that we can blame Him for everything. Who should I blame for the things that happen in creation, but the Creator Himself.
O- I could blame you…
S- But you would be wrong again. See? I already explained that but men cannot listen; don’t want to listent to that which is not to their own convenience…
On a side note, let me enlarge the picture of Hell. Justly gives me question that are wrong, so any answer too would be wrong. To begin with, nothing is destroyed in Hell-- not the souls, the rocks, the air…There is fire that is for sure. Jesus said so and he apparently has been at it even longer than I.
O- Why do you you say apparently? Isn’t it clear to you?
S- Would it be to you? You question whether i am the Devil, how much more would you doubt greater claims to fame? I was told God created me; all I know is that I woke up and found God there by me. He might have found me already formed and simply sleeping and told me that which I could never confirm nor deny. I had this discussion once after we got kicked out of Paradise. Oh those were the days when things were still new. He told me that he was formed of earth. But obviously what he meant is that he was told that such and such had happened. he could not have seen it with his eyes-- there weren’t any.
O- Maybe his–
S- Soul? That just begs the questions. Did he see his soul being made? And if he did not, then has his soul always been? And if so–
O- What are you driving at?
S- You believe God omnipotent, good, eternal etc, etc, but solely on His word. he could be lying you know.
O- That is against His nature.
S- Says who?..God again. It is all a beautiful spell. Where some of the contradictions emerge, people like justly simply sweep it all under their own interests. He disagrees with me, for example “that one should be born to be destroyed for His glory”. He thinks (though he did advise me against that) that “we are born to experience God’s love, to re-ascend to His love. To remarry with God and divorce Him no more”.
I write and I quote the scribe of St Paul:
“11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” [d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Satan’s emphasis)
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for disposal of refuse?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—”
S- What more can you add to what so clearly presents my point? And they call me “evil”…
I always loved multi-chaptered fairy tales…
============
S, do you believe in the duality of nature? That man has a dual nature? That he is both good and evil? that those 2 forces are engaged in constant battles? you as the tempter has an opposite, that is the conscience and the self decides between you and his conscience? I believe, in the beginning, there are already opposites(male-female, positive-negative) but good and evil are concepts of man. The POR is man himself. Things are good or bad only as he reacts to them. God is all good and love. Man created the evilness. Do you want to blame God too if you miss your flight or your computer freezes, that is if you believe that God is the source or creator of everything iincluding sin?
next, do you believe in karma? what do you think of a personal karma and a group karma?
I agree there is fire in hell, a different fire, a purging fire for what does fire do? For if you burn a matchstick until it turns black it returns to its pure state.
Suffering exists, true, but without suffering, how can we know happiness and well being? Suffering is evil because when we experience happiness it feels good. We think suffering is evil but we reap what we sow. The 23 year old girl may be pure in her present lifetime when she was shot. But let’s take into consideration her past life. I believe in reincarnation. One is attracted to certain conditions here on earth that one did not experience in his or her past life.
Evil exists, without evil, how can we know and like goodness?
Next, how can one know and experience God?
O: How can I see God or hear God?
J: go where no creatures dwell
O: is it near or is it far?
J: it is within you, be still, cease from thinking and willing
O:how can I hear Him when I’m still from thinking?
J: when you’re quiet and passive when your physical senses are passive, you will hear Him
O: what prevents me from hearing and experiencing Him?
J: your own willing,hearing ,seeing hinders you from the experience. if you still think of the physical, it will stop your hearing and you cannot hear God.
O:what must I do?
J:resign your will to God, free yourself from physical disturbances.
O: that’s hard to do, give up the physical and my life
J:don’t be discouraged. if you give up the physical world, you will enter that one of which the not physical world is made and if you loses your life, your life is in this not physical world. Your life is in God.
To know God is a personal experience. it cannot be bought or has monetary value. As I said, it is yours alone to experience. Nobidy else can experience it for you. Others have equal access to the experience.
And the Devil spoke to me…
S- Whahahahahaha…hahahahaha…Oh jeezz…
O- You better what out; sounds like you’re testing your own immortality there buddy.
S- Oh…ahhh…Did you read the response from justly?
O- Yes. I saw how he has put words into my mouth.
S- Well, aren’t you putting words in my mouth, so to speak?
O- They are words that you speak to me…sort of.
S- Don’t mind the fame, nor the infamy, but I do believe that our friend is not playing by the rules of the game anymore.
O- That’s all this is to you, isn’t it? A game…
S- Of course…but not so much of a game; more like a sport. In any case, I think that our pen pal is half/buddhist, so typical…so sad.
O- Why does that saddens you?
S- Well, there is a certain pleasure in pointing out contradictions and the like to people based on the strictness of their system. Once that strict adherence has been lost, no further logical contradiction is possible, but also, while it takes me out of a game, my game, it blurs what the person who says he believes truly believes in. He still parades in clothes that no longer fit and cannot be judged because they are the fashion of the day, his own taste…hell the clothes are so baggy that you could fit two religions in his pants instead of one. who are we to contradict the thing that pleasures another. It is pure subjective.
O- I don’t think that is what justly had in mind.
S- We’ll see. Let me read some of that stuff to you.
O- Must you? I did read the post…
S- I don’t care. He begins:
“S, do you believe in the duality of nature? That man has a dual nature? That he is both good and evil? that those 2 forces are engaged in constant battles?”
S- You know what the answer is? Do you have a dual nature omar?
O- Well, I can understand that a human being does have the attributes of both good and bad. That is that man can at times be good and at others be bad, because in his chest, as Goethe might have said, dwell two spirits.
S- Let me correct you and justly. You are what God decided you should be. You have one God therefore one nature. You are a servant.
O- But the constant battle…
S- Nonesense! There are no opposites within men. There is a “battle”…I prefer to call it an understanding…between myself and God. The question is: Who gets to ride the donkey today?
O- And who is the donkey?
S- You’re silly…“The born servant”. You think that you can resist me? I could possess you right this moment rather than simply speaking to you. So there is no duality in men. There is a duality, perhaps in the universe itself, perhaps, but not in men. God, really, is the one to blame again. He leaves some to my whims at times, and I temp, and I steal, and I ride their backs…I bend men to my will when God is not and when men are not under my will, they are under God’s.
O- I still don’t buy it. Perhaps you and God are just representations of the deep psychological rift of which justly speaks.
S- Now you’re talking heresy again. Shall we throw the Bible now or vomit more humanistic crap before we do? The question I ask is where man got this negative aspect you accuse him of? God’s Holy breath?
O- No, you don’t understand. Good and Evil are concepts of men.
S- Concepts he was ignorant of until he took my advice. That is why Paradise was Paradise. Had man remained there, he would have sooner grow to call even things in Paradise evil. Before that day, he accepted everything. he was a Yes-saying soul…one might say, a Zarathustra, to echo Nietzsche. He accepted life as it was to the point of doing harm to himself; to will the wrath of God himself in order to flourish. That’s is the nature of God and of man. Now is God evil? No. To His own delight, He is blameless, but ask Job his opinion. Good and evil are indeed concepts, but concepts that were alien to Adam early on, just as they are to most primitive forms of men still.
O- But maybe it was not the fruit that did it…
S- If there had been no fruit, then man could never develop the concept himself. Evil comes in the negation of our will, as a definition of a condition in which we cannot enforce ourselves on our enviroment. Adam lacked a definition and in most ways even the condition. Given a perfectly balanced enviroment, like Aldoux Huxley imagined, all striving would evaporate. You, under such conditions, would not know either good or evil-- you would only know plain existence. Between you and me, I had little to distinguish Adam from the other monkeys running around. That’s one of the reasons I took it upon myself to “spice things up” as you all say.
Justly has plenty of good intentions within. He says:
" God is all good and love."
This is definetly a christian degeneration. Amos said:
“6 When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the LORD caused it?”
He also said:
"18 Woe to you who long
for the day of the LORD!
Why do you long for the day of the LORD
That day will be darkness, not light. "
Whom else should I quote…there are so many…ah yes, Isaiah, for example said:
"7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things. "
That is the true majesty of omnipotence. Both light and darkness come from it-- Did I not also emanate from God? God does not label them as “evil” (He called me “Lucifer” once, which made me feel like Prometheous), but as what they truly are: Disaster and darkness; we might add destruction. Man did not create evil. That was in the fruit itself.
O- But what if the thought of evil was not inherent in the fruit but was aroused by the fruit, and what that fruit represented- that is property, power because it was rare, desire for it’s value and felt the lack of it and the evil in being denied access to it while he still could see no reason why not. Thus, justly justly judges the existence of good and evil in man prior to all or partial consumption of that fruit.
S- See, this is why it is frustrating talking to people that lack respect for scripture.
O- You mean those that do not take it literally?
S- No. Every metaphor has it’s place, but it makes little sense that Adam was kicked for what he already possessed. For if I follow your argument, then Adam was in possession of the Knowledge of Good and Evil the very day and moment God spoke to give the prohibition, without the need to eat the fruit. God being omniscent, would have recognized soon enough the intention of men filled with the belief in Good and the resentment of an Evil.
O- But he got kicked out for his disobedience.
S- Let me quote again:
“And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”
S- Man’s disobedience was properly punished, but he had to be banished because of the knowledge and the possibility of equality with God that would have obviated all rank in Paradise-- so he had to be banished. You might question the physics of it, the chemistry of God’s own creation out of sheer hubris, but the fact remains that a tree was created that confered knowledge of Good and Evil, and man when he ate from this tree, was changed.
O- All right all right. But doesn’t that mean also that knowing good and evil man now had a choice between doing good and doing evil.
S- There are no dualities. Man simply does what he has been determined to do, by God’s own will and for His pleasure. You might say that Hume was right: That indeed reason, including any knowledge of Good or Evil, is a slave to the passions. And passions…they are the realm of God …and myself.
But to move swiftly. I do not believe in Karma. It might be true, but then I don’t believe in truth anymore…nor in lies. karma is a concept that lies beyond my own experience. I am immortal. Have you been reincarnated? How does one know such things? What proofs are given to convince one that such is his lot?
O- I don’t know…faith?
S- Ah yeah. There is that again. In Hell all is in it’s pure state. The fire of Hell is not the fire that consumes matchsticks, but the one that gives pain eternally. It is true that without a reminder of the other, one cannot really appreciate one’s own misery or happines. God thought of that. That is why he allows those in heaven visions of Hell, that remind them just how good is heaven and satisfy their sense of revenge as they see those who wronged them before.
I’ll let you finish the response, since here justly is addresing you…
Evil exists, without evil, how can we know and like goodness?
Next, how can one know and experience God?
O: How can I see God or hear God?
J: go where no creatures dwell
O- Wrong question. How do I know that there is a God and not an infinite numeber of them. I would not be as crass as to ask how to hear, or see, or touch…for then one would only be experiencing himself.
O: is it near or is it far?
J: it is within you, be still, cease from thinking and willing
O- How is that different from death?
O:how can I hear Him when I’m still from thinking?
J: when you’re quiet and passive when your physical senses are passive, you will hear Him
O- You hear yourself again. There is no escaping it. There is a desire deep inside of contact and thus that method you act out-- you believe that you will find something and indeed that is what does happen, if you take this yoga seriously. The little fantasy we create for ourselves is in thinking that after making ourselves unresponsive to reality that another reality is allowed in. No. What does happen is that our desire is given an excuse to proclaim it’s goal as achieved. The payment has been given and you can now reconcille your most stravagant claims with your sense of still being scientific and objective. You found what you expected or were told you would find. You could have believed without all the yoga, but found that some price had to be paid in order that your belief could then gather some illusion of objective research. Others have spasms and attribute it to the Holy Spirit, but in any case, take from the pseudo-experience that which they had already brought in themselves to it.
O: what prevents me from hearing and experiencing Him?
J: your own willing,hearing ,seeing hinders you from the experience. if you still think of the physical, it will stop your hearing and you cannot hear God.
O- What prevents me from experienceing Him might simply be that God has decided that it should be so. I will not hurry the divine hand.
O:what must I do?
J:resign your will to God, free yourself from physical disturbances.
O- Oh jeezz…Oh well, I guess it is my fault. But you know, I like this position of power over God. Let Him wait for my resignation…that will be the day.
O: that’s hard to do, give up the physical and my life
J:don’t be discouraged. if you give up the physical world, you will enter that one of which the not physical world is made and if you loses your life, your life is in this not physical world. Your life is in God.
O- I don’t feel to good about dying just yet.
To know God is a personal experience. it cannot be bought or has monetary value.
O- But it can be obtained by following the eight steps towards enlightment…is that it?
As I said, it is yours alone to experience.
O- If I follow your methodology.
ok, this fairy tale is too damn long.
You might say that it is “spiralling out of control”…
or it can just stick to being ‘too damn long’.
If someone should be complaining, it should be justly. Is it my fault that you’re a poor reader?
nah. i was always in the slow reading group.
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Your OP expalins that. Outer self O conversing with inner self S; The “I” “I am” or “I am that I am” ego is deciding between the tempter “id” and the conscience “superego”. You are also a magnet, do you not attract opposites? Are you not drawn to my posts? that’s why you answer them?
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is not man a part of universe? So if there is duality in nature, then there is also duality in man.
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Fatalism. If God had already a plan for each one of us, why oh why do we have to master our environments? why are we so creative in solving problems? If we are what God decided we should be requires that we DO NOTHING! Is that your life then?
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Substitute reincarnation for a moment with the word Immortality for they go together IMO.
The law of the conservation of matter and energy states: energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change it’s form.
but this is only the physical interpretation of immortality or reincarnation.
Let me give you an anology:
a musical instrument, a piano for example. When the instrument is not played, the function of it, the music and the player, cease to be. Having once played and heard, is the music lost if it remains as memory of those who heard it? Does something have to retain the same form to be immortal? Life is contineous but whether you believe in reincarnation/immortality or not, our beliefs will not change the facts.
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I do not practice yoga. I will not contort my body to some misshapen forms. I am not ascetic, will never be. But I am practical.
The above process is called “entering the silence”. It is just a prelimenary step towards a greater enlightenment.
— Your OP expalins that. Outer self O conversing with inner self S; The “I” “I am” or “I am that I am” ego is deciding between the tempter “id” and the conscience “superego”. You are also a magnet, do you not attract opposites? Are you not drawn to my posts? that’s why you answer them?
O- Justly, the OP and the whole tread was done in jest. It is not that I harbor within me a supernatural being or that the S repressents something repressed or a dark side or an opposite within. I used S to describe one possible possition, which in my opinion would exist in such a character as S. You’re taking this too seriously and that is why I decided to drop the literary mask of S. But don’t take what is literary as a psychological mask.
— is not man a part of universe? So if there is duality in nature, then there is also duality in man.
O- If you believe St Paul then there is no duality, as we’re predetermined by God to be either noble works or works made solely for destruction. If you believe logic then still, God’s omnipotence would disqualify in man any real duality, for man would be by necessity what the greater power of God made him. man would be a pawn in a cosmic charade, just like Pharaoh. This is also a point in Romans. I am not suggesting that the Bible is the only authoritative source of the paranormal but that since the OP had Satan, who is found in the Bible, and not Shiva, I was approching the discussion from the approved evidence.
— Fatalism. If God had already a plan for each one of us, why oh why do we have to master our environments? why are we so creative in solving problems? If we are what God decided we should be requires that we DO NOTHING! Is that your life then?
O- Not fatalism: Predetermination by God. Fatalism would be right if I even put God under the constrictions of Fate, making even God a slave of Fate, just as in Ancient Greece. Instead it is God as Fate- as dictating destiny to men by His own council and pleasure.
Mastering enviroments has nothing to do with it, neither is creativity. Did you master your enviroment? Did you invent anything that I know, that helped humanity master it’s enviroment? Did you create anything I would know about? Chances are that the answer is “no”.
That does not mean that you haven’t done anything but the question is if you have done anything in complete freedom? Are you completely undetermined?
— Substitute reincarnation for a moment with the word Immortality for they go together IMO.
The law of the conservation of matter and energy states: energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change it’s form.
but this is only the physical interpretation of immortality or reincarnation.
O- There is also the 2nd law of thermodynamics, so that immortality in a present form is impossible. However, you should know that it is of no consequence to say that we are conserved in the daisy which our remains feed into being, or that we are the dust of stars, though there be truth in that. I consoles no one and intereses no one. Pay attention to the promises of priests, of heaven, they can be found again in St Paul, and it is not that which he has in mind but a return in body and soul after death and into an immortal existance, not because that is the physis of things such as us but because that is the will of God to upset the natural order.
— Does something have to retain the same form to be immortal?
O- A theist would have a answer that might shock you. In my opinion, crude as it is, I’ll say that yes, it must retain the same form to be immortal-- further— it must have an enduring essense, not just it’s form. be it as it may, a change implies the end of something and the beginning of something else. For example, a split atom is transformed into released energy, and from a mathematical, chemical, physics point of view, nothing has changed-- it remains as dissipated energy across a galaxy. But from a vitalist point of view, that is, as it is for your eyes and mine, it is gone from sight and does not exist anymore because existance means a limitation in form.
Immortality is an exception to change. God for example, is considered immortal-- He does not change.
— Life is contineous but whether you believe in reincarnation/immortality or not, our beliefs will not change the facts.
O- Life is an emergent quality that is lost with change. What change is really there between a person that at once was breathing and then passed away? Have you seen a person who died in his sleep? I did and I stood there watching his features and could still remember how just hours before that person was speaking, was alive. What had changed? Nothing I could see. If life was as vulgar as you claim then we would have actually made people in labs with only inert elements and a bit of energy and would have long ago mastered immortality through change. But since we all die, and all decays, we can say that when we “die” we mean exactly that we have changed in a radical way, so that what once was “I” or “we” is no more by it’s transformation.
— I do not practice yoga. I will not contort my body to some misshapen forms. I am not ascetic, will never be. But I am practical.
O- Do you think that Yoga-- as you understand it: the contortionism and ascetism-- has no “practical” purpose? You might call your routine whatever but do not think that you stand that far apart from Yogis.