Are claims about God & Jesus scientific or religious?

[Mutcer]

Are claims about God & Jesus scientific or religious?

• Religious
• Scientific
• Other (please specify)

Are claims about God & Jesus scientific or religious?

Is the claim that Jesus was born to a virgin a scientific claim or a religious claim?

Is the claim that God created the universe a scientific claim or a religious claim?

For more on this, listen to the Sam Harris - Rabbi David Wolpe debate at archive.org/details/SamHarrisVs.DavidWolpeDebate

[captaincrunk]

I said other, meaning both, because any claim is just about every kind of claim. Any implications of a claim are claimed by extension, so when I claim to be Vishnu I’m claiming all the things that come with it. Scientific, or religious.

[phyllo]

Welcome to the forum, Vishnu.

[statiktech]

Yeah, I say both. They are obviously part of religious doctrine, but are also scientific insofar as they purport to be evidential claims about reality.

[felix_dakat]

This little quiz is actually a Turing Test. The set up is so loaded with implicit assumptions that only computer or an extreme masochist would play if it weren’t for the “other” category which presumably 99.9% of thinking people will choose. I got stuck in the rigging and didn’t choose an option.

[captaincrunk]

@felix dakat

This little quiz is actually a Turing Test. The set up is so loaded with implicit assumptions that only computer or an extreme masochist would play if it weren’t for the “other” category which presumably 99.9% of thinking people will choose. I got stuck in the rigging and didn’t choose an option.

apparently 40% of people didn’t choose other

[felix_dakat]

@captaincrunk

@felix dakat

This little quiz is actually a Turing Test. The set up is so loaded with implicit assumptions that only computer or an extreme masochist would play if it weren’t for the “other” category which presumably 99.9% of thinking people will choose. I got stuck in the rigging and didn’t choose an option.

apparently 40% of people didn’t choose other

Right. That’s 2 people, one of whom is probably Mutcer himself. Let me know when at least 30 people have voted. It won’t be 99.9 by then, but it will be moving in that direction. Besides, I specified “thinking people”. What is the correlation between thinking people and people who post on ILP anyway?

[Mutcer]

@felix dakat

This little quiz is actually a Turing Test. The set up is so loaded with implicit assumptions that only computer or an extreme masochist would play if it weren’t for the “other” category which presumably 99.9% of thinking people will choose. I got stuck in the rigging and didn’t choose an option.

Please explain why you think this is a Turing Test.

[captaincrunk]

@Mutcer

@felix dakat

This little quiz is actually a Turing Test. The set up is so loaded with implicit assumptions that only computer or an extreme masochist would play if it weren’t for the “other” category which presumably 99.9% of thinking people will choose. I got stuck in the rigging and didn’t choose an option.

Please explain why you think this is a Turing Test.

he’s using it as a metaphor, he’s not actually claiming you’re a computer

[Mutcer]

@captaincrunk

@Mutcer

@felix dakat

This little quiz is actually a Turing Test. The set up is so loaded with implicit assumptions that only computer or an extreme masochist would play if it weren’t for the “other” category which presumably 99.9% of thinking people will choose. I got stuck in the rigging and didn’t choose an option.

Please explain why you think this is a Turing Test.

he’s using it as a metaphor, he’s not actually claiming you’re a computer

Just what about the quiz isn’t legitimate?

[felix_dakat]

Apart from the “other” category, it seems to present a false choice. It depends on your definitions. First, what exactly is science? How can we characterize it? What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for a given inquiry or theory or claim to be scientific, a part of science? Next what about religion? What characteristics are necessary and sufficient for something’s being a religion? How does one distinguish a religion from a way of life? With respect to your survey, what is of special importance is the notion of a religious belief? What does a belief have to be like to be religious?

[captaincrunk]

@Mutcer

@captaincrunk

@Mutcer

Please explain why you think this is a Turing Test.

he’s using it as a metaphor, he’s not actually claiming you’re a computer

Just what about the quiz isn’t legitimate?

Given the three options, anyone not choosing the third is essentially saying something that is inconsistent. You’re saying that some things are outside science, which is still a scientific claim at least insofar as saying it isn’t one! Just like if I say I’m not horny, I’m still making a sexual claim even if it isn’t sexy.

You can make a statement that doesn’t involve science, but a claim is more. Claims are extensive.

[omar]

Because it does not define problematic terms. It takes them under an unexamined assumption of clarity, or self evidence, or other how universality.
What makes a claim scientific?
What makes a claim religious?
Are they clearly defined that one contains nothing that pertains to the other?

[Mutcer]

@felix dakat

Apart from the “other” category, it seems to present a false choice. It depends on your definitions. First, what exactly is science? How can we characterize it? What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for a given inquiry or theory or claim to be scientific, a part of science? Next what about religion? What characteristics are necessary and sufficient for something’s being a religion? How does one distinguish a religion from a way of life? With respect to your survey, what is of special importance is the notion of a religious belief? What does a belief have to be like to be religious?

“Abraham Lincoln was a US president” is a scientific claim
“Gravity is a force” is a scientific claim
“Japan is a country” is a scientific claim
“Oceans are full of salt water” is a scientific claim
“Martin Sheen is the father of Charlie Sheen” is a scientific claim
“NASA developed the spacecraft which took Neil Armstrong to the moon” is a scientific claim
“Each human being was born to a female human being” is a scientific claim
“Spiders are little bugs with legs” is a scientific claim

“God created the universe” = scientific or religious claim?
“Jesus was born to a virgin mother” = scientific or religious claim?

[captaincrunk]

@omar

Because it does not define problematic terms. It takes them under an unexamined assumption of clarity, or self evidence, or other how universality.
What makes a claim scientific?
What makes a claim religious?
Are they clearly defined that one contains nothing that pertains to the other?

Claims extend beyond the initial parameters though, otherwise they’d be pretty useless. If I claim to be a dog, it implies that a dog learned philosophy, for example.

[omar]

@captaincrunk

@omar

Because it does not define problematic terms. It takes them under an unexamined assumption of clarity, or self evidence, or other how universality.
What makes a claim scientific?
What makes a claim religious?
Are they clearly defined that one contains nothing that pertains to the other?

Claims extend beyond the initial parameters though, otherwise they’d be pretty useless. If I claim to be a dog, it implies that a dog learned philosophy, for example.

Sure.
But then do they extend into the other? Meaning, do religious claims extend enough to become scientific or is there some limit to that extension which the distinction viable?
My own belief is that religious claims can be scientific depending on how the scientist approaches it. Einstein said that “God does not play dice”. Is that a religious or a scientific claim? The richness of metaphor and analogy within language makes it either one. Like a psychological test, labelling a claim either scientific or religious reveal more about the prejudice of the person than about the objective value of the claim.

[omar]

Hello Mutcer
Let’s check out these claims

— “Abraham Lincoln was a US president” is a scientific claim
O- Historical fact. “Jesus Christ died on a roman cross”. What is that?

— “Gravity is a force” is a scientific claim
O- “The force is strong in me”. What is it?

— “Japan is a country” is a scientific claim
O- Geographical fact. It is consistent with the definitions involved. “The Graden of Eden had trees in it”. Scientific or religious?

— “Oceans are full of salt water” is a scientific claim
O- “On a parallel earth the oceans are not salty”. Scientific or religious?

— “Martin Sheen is the father of Charlie Sheen” is a scientific claim
O- Biographical record. Can be falsified. If Martin Sheen states that he is placing his trust somewhere, whether on the mother’s claim that it is his child, or in DNA test being accurate, or in the doctor being competent, or in the test being reliable infallibly. So, if Martin claims that Charlie is his son, is that a scientific or religious claim?

— “NASA developed the spacecraft which took Neil Armstrong to the moon” is a scientific claim
O- Developed aircraft…we all saw that. That man landed on the moon…could’ve been faked, so is it a scientific or religious claim?

— “Each human being was born to a female human being” is a scientific claim
O- Then explain evolution to me, where we descend from what is not human. If your claim is scientific, it would contradict what has been received as science.

— “God created the universe” = scientific or religious claim?
O- “The universe was created”, “The universe had a beginning” = scientific or religious claim?

— “Jesus was born to a virgin mother” = scientific or religious claim?
O- Depending on how you define “virgin”, either by second century jewish definition or by contemporary definitions.

[phyllo]

Wikipedia on science :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

Science (from Latin scientia, meaning “knowledge”) is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.[1]

In modern use, “science” more often refers to a way of pursuing knowledge, not only the knowledge itself. It is “often treated as synonymous with ‘natural and physical science’, and thus restricted to those branches of study that relate to the phenomena of the material universe and their laws, sometimes with implied exclusion of pure mathematics. This is now the dominant sense in ordinary use.”[4]

Over the course of the 19th century, the word “science” became increasingly associated with scientific method, a disciplined way to study the natural world, including physics, chemistry, geology and biology.

You can see from the above quotes, that neither of your two original statements are in the realm of science. This is also true of most of your other examples, as already pointed out by Omar.

Neither statement is testable by the scientific method. They are one-off events for which data is not available.

If someone suddenly had a large amount of money and claimed that it miraculously popped up in front of him, would you call a physicist to check it out. Most likely, you would check if there had been any robberies or burglaries recently … you would investigate as the police do.
Investigation of the virgin birth of Jesus will yield more mundane explanations:
Scholars now believe that the word ‘virgin’ was mistranslated and that it actually refers to a young girl without previous children. Jesus’ father was Joseph.
Lots of important, famous, people were credited with virgin births in the ancient world. Buddha has such claims attached to him although he never said that he was anything but human.

BTW, science has studied ‘virgin birth’, or parthenogenesis.

[captaincrunk]

@omar

@captaincrunk

@omar

Because it does not define problematic terms. It takes them under an unexamined assumption of clarity, or self evidence, or other how universality.
What makes a claim scientific?
What makes a claim religious?
Are they clearly defined that one contains nothing that pertains to the other?

Claims extend beyond the initial parameters though, otherwise they’d be pretty useless. If I claim to be a dog, it implies that a dog learned philosophy, for example.

Sure.
But then do they extend into the other?

Yes.

@omar

Meaning, do religious claims extend enough to become scientific or is there some limit to that extension which the distinction viable?

There is no limit to inquiry, my dear Watson.

@omar

My own belief is that religious claims can be scientific depending on how the scientist approaches it. Einstein said that “God does not play dice”. Is that a religious or a scientific claim? The richness of metaphor and analogy within language makes it either one.

Given that Einstein only used “God” metaphorically and didn’t seem to be a believer… No, I can’t say it can be taken either way, unless you’re an asshole who likes to hijack other people’s clever phrases.

@omar

Like a psychological test, labelling a claim either scientific or religious reveal more about the prejudice of the person than about the objective value of the claim.

And like an intelligence test, anyone who doesn’t see that the answer is other is stupid. Yes? No?

[Mutcer]

@omar

@captaincrunk

@omar

Because it does not define problematic terms. It takes them under an unexamined assumption of clarity, or self evidence, or other how universality.
What makes a claim scientific?
What makes a claim religious?
Are they clearly defined that one contains nothing that pertains to the other?

Claims extend beyond the initial parameters though, otherwise they’d be pretty useless. If I claim to be a dog, it implies that a dog learned philosophy, for example.

Sure.
But then do they extend into the other? Meaning, do religious claims extend enough to become scientific or is there some limit to that extension which the distinction viable?
My own belief is that religious claims can be scientific depending on how the scientist approaches it. Einstein said that “God does not play dice”. Is that a religious or a scientific claim? The richness of metaphor and analogy within language makes it either one. Like a psychological test, labelling a claim either scientific or religious reveal more about the prejudice of the person than about the objective value of the claim.

The claim “God does not play dice” could be scientific or religious - depending on the definition of “God”, “Play” and “Dice”.