Are Drones An Ethical Choice?

Last week Tab and I did a short debate on the subject with the idea that others would comment and declare one of us the debate winner. Only one person wanted to make comments, so we’re posting the gist of the debate here to see if anyone would care to discuss and be judgemental of the subject in general and our efforts specifically.

I started the debate with:

Tab responded with:

You can read the full debate at: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=182699

Drones aren’t going away any time soon and their uses are a bit problematic. So let us know what you thunk…

Are any weapons that kill without consequence for the user, ethical?

Remote killing can be perpetrated without risk or responsibility.

There is no basis for doubt.
Such weapons are amoral, their use immoral.

nbcnews.com/technology/domin … 6C10182466 I figure about a 5 lb carrying capacity. Two large pizzas or… 2 lbs of C4 or equivalent, 2 lbs assorted small metal projectiles, and 1 lb of packaging and radio gear to trigger the “delivery”. Pizza anyone? :open_mouth:

i agree with Tent - What this or that moral system has to say regarding the use of drones is really beside the point. You’re talking about warfare - and the moral rules are always distorted in times of war. People will get killed one way or another. However, we can set practical goals for war, including killing as few people as possible, and then targeted assassinations performed by robots actually become good things, because fewer people have to die. In a twisted way, using drones actually saves lives, and, morally speaking, saving lives is usually considered a good thing. So in considering wether to use drones we can adhere to strict moral guidelines regarding what is or isn’t an acceptable way to kill someone, or we can go with trying our best to minimize the number of people who die. The latter seems more sensible to me.

Trouble is, you end up with a queue.

Stupid me, i don’t quite get what you mean.

Maybe it has not yet occurred to you that the main recipient of drones is country with whom the USA is NOT at war.

Nah, sorry upf. lazy me, for not explaining myself. Gotten too used to the usual spamhead responses to risk tendonitus without reason.

Anyway. Both you and Tents are coming at this from the “using drones actually saves lives” end. Kill the bad guy in the crowd, rather than the whole crowd to kill the bad guy. But that’s the band-aid perspective. If someone’s got acne, squeezing the spots as they appear is no solution.

Imagine an escalator. Drone at the top, very precisely, and with no fallout, shoots the bad guy on the uppermost step. Pam ! Down he goes and falls to the wayside. But there’s another. Pam ! Another corpse. And now another head appears…

The drone is not enough to destroy the escalator. Nor to stop others being built. Foreign policies create self-sustaining systems. These systems, for as long as the initial conditions remain the same, create the same scenarios, and the same characters to play in them. The characters to some extent co-evolve over time, but the nature of their relationship to each other does not change. They remain in opposition, because that is what the system demands of them - a bottle factory production line does not spontaneously start churning out fluffy hippos.

All drones will do is force those that they shoot at to mutate in form and tactics until the status quo is restored. And don’t forget, in order to justify its existance, any weapon needs a target. It is in its interest to seek them out and if none can be found, to create them anew for each consecutive itteration of its own evolution.

The death goes on, until both the target and the weapon are defunct, removed by the collapse of the system that sustains them.

That’s true, but the US has declared war on various non-state actors, many of whom happen to be located/hiding in said country, so the drone strikes are still acts of war, even if they take place within the borders of an (ostensible) US ally.

Geebus! It sounds like you’re suggesting that we stop killing each other. :open_mouth: As a red-blooded amurrican that would upset the way we do things. If we stopped killing, then we wouldn’t need guns, and the second amendment would be null and void. You can’t mess with my constitutional rights! And just what would all the religious extremists do if it weren’t for killing? I mean, the notion that god is on our side would disappear. You’re asking way too much. You have to look at the positive side. Drones are just a clever way to aid population control. :-"

True, humanity has drove its values down into a hole, but is there a solution?

True, humanity has drove its values down into a hole, but is there a solution?

Not if no-one’s looking.

You remember I’ve talked about stereotypes - the bully, the nerd…? The bully solves the problems he faces in early life with force, the nerd by smarts…? And how, because over time they become specialists at using force, coercion; and smarts, diplomacy they both conciously and unconsciously seek out the problems that they can solve with their specialities rather than the ones requiring skills they have not developed…? And how again, if they come across a problem that does not match their skill sets, and cannot be side-stepped they will attempt to re-frame the problem into such that it can be solved with their specialities…?

Well, it works for societies too.

Weapons are deeply ingrained in Western culture, the USA most of all. Would you say it is reasonable to suggest you have become specialists in this respect…? If so, would it also be reasonable to suggest that your familiarity with the use of weapons impinges on how you, as a culture, tend to frame the problems facing you…?

:-k

Say I’m a heroin addict. I run out. I gots the shakes. The pain’s creeping in. Is the answer to my problem more heroin…? Better herion…? Heroin with less side-effects…? Less collateral cellular and mental damage…?

You’ve gotta see the deep craziness of saying “better weapons save lives.”

You’ve also got to see how habit forming the gun industry is. A gun for every situation. A new situation pops up. What’s the first question that springs to mind…?

“Hmm. Now which gun will fix this…?”

Tab asks:

You’re painting with a 4" house brush… Yeah, the U.S. is probably the leader in having loose guns laying around. BUT… Name one society that doesn’t use violence as the final solution. Uhhh… Does tear gas and water cannons sound familiar? You’re trying to elevate the discussion to one of violence or not-violence. That’s fine with me because until we find ways to teach non-violence at every level of human interaction, drones or whatever evil technology comes next will always be both used and abused.

You see, I want to agree with you. I too have seen the power of people when they say enough is enough. I’m one of those “old hippies” from the 60’s. BUT… As I watched the dreams co-opted and killed by the necessities of food, clothing, and shelter, I became a pragmatic dreamer. How’s that for a contradiction? :stuck_out_tongue:

So the final solution can be discussed, planned, and started, but I’m about what happens in the meantime. I hate the intrusion of drones, both for reasons of privacy as well as not wanting to be nuked by one. By themselves, there is no way they can “fix” things, but they can make violence less destructive overall. I ain’t stupid (well, maybe I am) and I know full well that the technology will be misused over and over by every nation on earth plus every pissant extremist group out to make a name for themselves or their cause. Still, I think it’s a step forward in reducing the body count in every @#$*^!! conflict.

Looking ahead, people may wake up when they understand that there is no place left that they can’t be “reached” by the technology. when there is no place on the planet that is safe from killing, just maybe… That’s the dreamer side of me.

Just as a laugh - what’s the end point…? Drones fighting drones…?

Why not? We have manned fighters that can shoot down enemy aircraft over line-of-sight (25 mi. +) All we have to do is use an AWAC or satellite tracking system (now used by Patriot anti-missle defense system) and feed that into the controller system. I’d be willing to bet that these drones are already being developed for “patrol” work off the boundaries of say… North Korea and Iran. The beauty of this piece of the technology is that we can have real-time missle defense in the air 24/7 and right at the “enemy” borders. We already have air-to-ground capabilities. The leap to air-to-air is no biggie.

The fun part is when we have to apologize for a shoot down of a commercial satellite launch vehicle. You forgot to tell us you were launching a satellite? Oops. Sorry about that. I’m sure that deployment of such capabilities has already happened or will happen soon. The U.N. will have some interesting discussions in about a year.

Drones are sooo 1984.

“Various non-state actors?”
What the hell do you mean by that?
The last guy I heard was targetted by a drone, was an American citizen. in a foreign land. The drone took hom out and a collection of innocent persons too.
Aside from an act of (undeclared) war in a foreign state, In my book that is called summary execution without trial! Is that the acceptable modus operandi of the US state now?
Not only has it taken the privilege of transgressing the sovereignty of other states but it seem to think execution without trial is also perfectly acceptable. What happened to the rule of law that protects us all?

Uhhh… the last known drone strike was in Pakistan and the target wasn’t an american. He was the second-in-command of the Taliban in Pakistan. No mention of any “collateral” killings.

Rule of law is a vague term. It doesn’t mean a trial by a jury of peers. It can be the decision of a single person interpreting what is “law”. Star chambers can enforce “rule of law”.

Demanding transparency in a cat and mouse game belies the nature of the game itself. It doesn’t provide comfort to those targeted, but to the extent that indescriminate violence toward others is considered acceptable by the extreme fringes of any society, one must choose the lesser of evils. Drones were originally developed for recon and surveilance Arming them was a reactive development. For some reason, the targets seemed unwilling to expose themselves to the rule of law…

And then they come knocking at your door.