I see alot of anti religion posts in here lately, and I want to clarify my stance on the issue.
first. Religion teaches us to fear god. our respect and love for god should be driven by our fear of god, of his punishment if we sin.
answer: Would you want your own children to love you out of fear? Fear that if they don’t do everything you want them to you’ll bring the rod upon them?
second. Religion teaches us that we are in a sinful state.
answer: This is a tactic to make you think you are doing something wrong, when in fact you are doing nothing wrong. (well a majority of the time anyways.)
third. Religion wants us to bring others into the fold, to enjoy gods love.
answer: If god’s love is boundless it wouldn’t be confined by a particular religion. They again try to bring you into this fold by promising salvation. Like you are in a need of being saved currently. It’s totally pompous, to think your god is better than their god.
fourth. God sends the wicked to an eternity in hell.
answer: Is our mortal imperfect lifetime of mistakes warranting an eternity in hell? Can we be judged fairly by a perfect immortal being?
does god want us to be like him and judge others unfairly?
does god want us to be like him and cut off non-believers, calling them “the unsaved”?
does god want you to love unconditionally, or to condition with fear?
there will always be the opportunity to “help that guy and make our society harmonious, even when i could be justified not doing so”
there will always be the opposite “i can help this guy, but id prefer not to, even though if he knew i denied him this and why i did so, he would be upset that i had made that decision”
one moves The OmniSoul towards our goal, one away. besides those two questions, there is nothing else to worry about. dont worry about details, argue about them if you must, but only in the context of these questions.
i believe that these questions and our appreciation of their importance are implanted into us merely by the obvious nature of the situation, the design of the universe. any blank slate brain can interpret an animal society’s purpose to be to act in harmony. yep i think thats a jump, argue.
its fun to preach just like a christian! except i actually know the entire bible.
The ‘fear’ of God is not the simple ‘feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger’ - that would be a very shallow understanding of language but is probably the biggest problem when reading the Bible today. The origins of the Bible were very complex languages with multiple impressions that were transported with words and sayings, even more so when written down.
But even in our language, fear means more. For example ‘extreme reverence or awe’, which we can gain by understanding that our Forefathers have discovered many more things than we give them credit for and there is really little more to be discovered that has an effect on our daily lives. But imagine how they must have felt discovering the world they live in, understanding that medicine is all around, amazed at the wealth and diversity of life, looking out towards the stars and astonished by what they saw.
Of course there is a certain feeling of disquiet or apprehension in that ‘fear of God’, imagining what the intelligence behind creation would say to the stupidity and at times brutality of humankind’s dealing with each other. A feeling of guiltiness does rise in me, when I see what the most modern century has brought us - and what the ‘civilised’ Nations are doing to the underdeveloped ones even today. Religion tries to take in the panorama view - and it is not all good what we see, although it was good.
Generally ‘sin’ is missing the mark. Even we can see that humankind misses the mark, we don’t need God to tell us that. It has less to do with ‘doing something wrong’ as having the wrong attitude. What is wrong with our attitude surely doesn’t have to be expounded upon?
Even Tao teaches that we are off balance, or are off track. We create ourselves the problems that torment us most and which create the most anguish. There are ways to find harmony and ‘blend in’ with life on our planet and still make progress - but haste doesn’t make progress faster, but causes us to be shoddy and superficial.
Your view is rather simplistic I’m afraid. I know that the televangelists are dominant in America and that you may be influenced by them, but there are different aspects of Religion that need to be taken into account.
It isn’t effective if we simply develop our own brand of Religion and keep it private. If we want to make a difference, we need to create communities in which the common values can be realised. Such communities needn’t be aggressively missionary, although that was a result of the mixing of power with religion, but need to have an area of influence to reap the harvest of what they have sown.
If you stay with the metaphor, you can’t share a field if you are not agreed on what should be sown. At the best you would get a mixed crop, at worst no crop at all. The same is with religious values in a community. The Bible is written for smaller communities, not world wide ones. That is why we have difficulties and why an ecumenical respect between communities is needed - but where fundamentalism (of all kinds) gets in the way.
Hell is figuratively the place where God is not. That is, where the order and wealth of his blessing does not exist. For many people in the world, that Hell is now and where they are. They cannot reap the benefits of creation or community because the representatives of western society bear down on them and force them to serve our economy.
The threat of Hell is very real for many people in our world - and not surprisingly in centuries past. We are in the position to appreciate what we have (although we seldom do) but 75% of people are not. In biblical times, that was the very real effect of living outside of the community and possibly in slavery and oppression.
Hell was also associated with places where atrocities took place and the Demons were either people that committed them or the spirits that made them commit them. So you see, there are many things in religion that are up to date, even if we have to delve deeper.
hi bob, after a brief hiatus from ILP I have returned.
let’s look in the dictionary:
so what we have here is the simple evolution of the word fear which for all intents and purposes means to “be in admiration of god because he can send you to hell if you don’t” I think we need to progress beyond admiring god out of “fear-admiration” and head towards “love-admiration” and not just towards god, but with how we deal with others.
Fear fright horror admiration. words that belong together?
yes look at the food for oil which supported saddham, by France and Russia. It’s no wonder they didn’t want to get involved in the war against Iraq. but that’s a topic for a different thread.
it’s awful what civilised nations do to underdeveloped ones. but it’s not the “nations” it’s the greedy megacorps. Like the companies that send monitors to china for “recycling”.
humankind does miss the mark. It’s not out of “general sin” the sin is in our laziness. (I think scott peck covers this topic beautifully)
well I would say it’s more an act of not thinking or pondering your actions. and questioning others actions. Like “is it ok for a game company to release a game where you play lee harvey oswald in the clock tower?”
agree completely.
I think your looking at my view through your own view and not seeing my big picture.
I would say that they are a portion of christianity here in america but hardly dominant. and I’m agnostic not christian.
the metaphysical aspects, the altrustics? There’s a good side to relgion surely. But It’s marred by regressive ideas no matter how you skin it.
well of course not, but to say “I am the way” is like saying that god only accepts people following your way. Or do you think that?
completely agree. Community is the important key missing in our world today. We have an “artificial” internet community. but the focus of it is sex. Example. The other day on google I was searching for “kitchen countertops” and several sex pictures popped up on the first page. The virtual community reflects that we think about nothing but sex. if that’s the case perhaps freud was right?
I don’t see the bible as an ecunamical spiritual answer… more of a mythical spiritual storied guide. one that would be in serious error to follow as absolute truth.
ok, so does anyone deserve to spend an eternity away from god for a mere lifetime of “sin”?
(For clarification, I am speaking only about Christianity because it is what I know best."
Think of the relationship between a kid and his/her parent. It is a loving relationship. Did your parent ever take you to work when you were a little kid. The cliche is that the kid is completely awed by it, and then goes home and sees all that is made possible by work. The relationship with God is the same way, but greater because you should be able to see that everything that is was made possible by His work. So the “Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power” definition works so long as you ignore your previous ideas of what “fear” means because the relationship is clearly a loving one.
Jesus tells us that the most important commandment is love God, and next is love your neighbor. As for who is your neighbor, that is every person on this earth. In fact we are even closer than neighbors because we are all children of God and living in the house God created for us. So, as long as you deny God, you are in a sinful state. If you can not truthfully say you love every child of God, you are in a sinful state. Every person, except for Jesus, is sinful.
God’s love is boundless. He loves everyone regardless of their sins. But, to receive the forgiveness that God offers us we must accept God and ask for His forgiveness. The churches want to teach this to people, and to do that, they must get the people to come and listen.
Sin is sort of a snowball effect. Once it starts, it keeps growing. The only thing that can stop this is an introduction to God. So, a sinful person who does have faith in God, in death will do the same thing. Besides, who can we trust more to give good judgment than an omniscient, immortal being who created us?
God does not want us to judge each other for a few reasons. We are not in a position to judge others as He is. Judging would bring to light flaws in others and would lead us to hate one another. And, our judgment of others doesn’t mean anything, it does not accomplish anything.
Again, we are not to judge others. Also, just because others are not saved by Christ, technically does not mean they won’t get into heaven, it is just extremely unlikely. When He came to earth, Jesus told us He did not come to destroy the old covenant, so technically a person, by keeping the ten commandments all their life, will get into heaven.
Love people and God unconditionally, anything not person or not God (a false god perhaps?) we can hate. Go back to the beginning of post for stuff about fear.
That is a question of interpretation and not necessarily the consequences of spiritual development, although I am prepared to admit that there are many people today who are motivated in this way. I see by what you have not quoted that you are not happy with my logic. Awe does inspire fear when a sudden realisation comes about that I am witnessing something that is far beyond my capabilities and that ‘someone’ accordingly superior is responsible for it.
There is a semantic connection between fear and admiration, just as there are many relationships based on the same thing. You and I may not agree to such a relationship and bring in ‘love’ instead of ‘fear’, but the psychological make-up of some people is that way. That means we can’t simply appeal to people to stop being that way - but have to show them that a different relationship is possible and help others make their way the best they can.
But these megacorps have had the ground prepared for them by governments - much like the missionaries during the colonial past. The governments are supposedly representatives of nations and therefore nations are responsible - even though we often only get the true story 30 years later.
It is the use of morals when it suits us, but not when it doesn’t that is particularly immoral. It suited the allies to moralise over Nazi Germany, but not to have themselves held to account. You see it in some old movies when the hero is ‘forced’ to torture someone for the higher good. People always torture people for what they regard the higher good and in so doing they pave the way for people to follow and it becomes normal. By the same measure, is it morally inacceptable to behead someone, but acceptable to see collateral damage as unavoidable and blow families apart at a wedding celebration?
Nations remain silent to these things or they develop a form of racism to accomadate them. We are responsible, not the individual soldiers, because we give soldiers their assignment via our representatives and we tell them what we are ready to accept morally via the media. We just have to go out and march against such behaviour and everybody would know what is acceptable.
You don’t have to be christian to be influenced in your opinion of what Christianity is. The Evangelicals have been said to be the single largest influence at the ballot of the last election, so they are clearly influential.
Jesus is said to have made this statement to his followers. It was the Church that made this statement into an international proclamation. He is portrayed as saying that he was the ‘Way’ in contrast to others ways and if you follow him, you will go that same way. It is something pragmatic that is being passed on here, which became dogmatic at a later date.
Now look at what I wrote and see that I didn’t say that the Bible is an ‘ecumenical spiritual answer’ but ‘written for smaller communities’. What I said was that we need an ‘ecumenical respect’ between differing communities. That means that we need to understand that Religion is human and develops with humans, differently in various cultural backgrounds. We can’t conserve truth in a can and open it up when we want it - spiritual truth develops as people develop.
It must have been late when you answered because you didn’t read on.
Quote:
Hell is figuratively the place where God is not. That is, where the order and wealth of his blessing does not exist. For many people in the world, that Hell is now and where they are. They cannot reap the benefits of creation or community because the representatives of western society bear down on them and force them to serve our economy.
The threat of Hell is very real for many people in our world - and not surprisingly in centuries past. We are in the position to appreciate what we have (although we seldom do) but 75% of people are not. In biblical times, that was the very real effect of living outside of the community and possibly in slavery and oppression.
Hell was also associated with places where atrocities took place and the Demons were either people that committed them or the spirits that made them commit them. So you see, there are many things in religion that are up to date, even if we have to delve deeper.
That is a question of interpretation and not necessarily the consequences of spiritual development, although I am prepared to admit that there are many people today who are motivated in this way. I see by what you have not quoted that you are not happy with my logic. Awe does inspire fear when a sudden realisation comes about that I am witnessing something that is far beyond my capabilities and that ‘someone’ accordingly superior is responsible for it.
There is a semantic connection between fear and admiration, just as there are many relationships based on the same thing. You and I may not agree to such a relationship and bring in ‘love’ instead of ‘fear’, but the psychological make-up of some people is that way. That means we can’t simply appeal to people to stop being that way - but have to show them that a different relationship is possible and help others make their way the best they can.
But these megacorps have had the ground prepared for them by governments - much like the missionaries during the colonial past. The governments are supposedly representatives of nations and therefore nations are responsible - even though we often only get the true story 30 years later.
It is the use of morals when it suits us, but not when it doesn’t that is particularly immoral. It suited the allies to moralise over Nazi Germany, but not to have themselves held to account. You see it in some old movies when the hero is ‘forced’ to torture someone for the higher good. People always torture people for what they regard the higher good and in so doing they pave the way for people to follow and it becomes normal. By the same measure, is it morally inacceptable to behead someone, but acceptable to see collateral damage as unavoidable and blow families apart at a wedding celebration?
Nations remain silent to these things or they develop a form of racism to accomadate them. We are responsible, not the individual soldiers, because we give soldiers their assignment via our representatives and we tell them what we are ready to accept morally via the media. We just have to go out and march against such behaviour and everybody would know what is acceptable.
You don’t have to be christian to be influenced in your opinion of what Christianity is. The Evangelicals have been said to be the single largest influence at the ballot of the last election, so they are clearly influential.
Jesus is said to have made this statement to his followers. It was the Church that made this statement into an international proclamation. He is portrayed as saying that he was the ‘Way’ in contrast to others ways and if you follow him, you will go that same way. It is something pragmatic that is being passed on here, which became dogmatic at a later date.
Now look at what I wrote and see that I didn’t say that the Bible is an ‘ecumenical spiritual answer’ but ‘written for smaller communities’. What I said was that we need an ‘ecumenical respect’ between differing communities. That means that we need to understand that Religion is human and develops with humans, differently in various cultural backgrounds. We can’t conserve truth in a can and open it up when we want it - spiritual truth develops as people develop.
It must have been late when you answered because you didn’t read on.
Quote:
Hell is figuratively the place where God is not. That is, where the order and wealth of his blessing does not exist. For many people in the world, that Hell is now and where they are. They cannot reap the benefits of creation or community because the representatives of western society bear down on them and force them to serve our economy.
The threat of Hell is very real for many people in our world - and not surprisingly in centuries past. We are in the position to appreciate what we have (although we seldom do) but 75% of people are not. In biblical times, that was the very real effect of living outside of the community and possibly in slavery and oppression.
Hell was also associated with places where atrocities took place and the Demons were either people that committed them or the spirits that made them commit them. So you see, there are many things in religion that are up to date, even if we have to delve deeper.
it’s unlikely the kid “fears” work though (I realize a small group of people do fear work).
so I’ll have god whack you on the hands when you do wrong and you can admire him out of fear. But since your not perfect your never doing the right thing so your going to get whacked alot.
IMO the relationship model set up by traditional christian religions between god and man is flawed. Man should not love god out of fear, the same way a child should not love his parents out of fear. Do you threaten your kid with canings if they don’t stay in line? do you think such a relationship with a child is healthy? Think about it, they are unaware of their capacity. Their children, and can’t know better, to punish with such impunity and undisciplined discpline is irresponsible. If we extrapolate and use the same model on god, if he punishes us and uses fear it makes him irresponsible.
which the christians got from Zoroastrianism and Buddhism (perhaps even taoism.) The idea to love your neighbor is not original to christianity.
so the eskimos that never got taught about the christian god are screwed. as well as modern day pygmies in south america.
can you truthfully say that you love everyone on earth? do you love parents who starve their kids to death so that they can get high? Do you love Hitler who massacred millions of jews?
the classic catch 22. To be saved you have to admit that you are sinning. But if you admit your sinning, your sinning doesn’t stop so you have to continue to ask for forgiveness.
anyone who wants to can hear god’s voice without going to church.
another catch-22. If god is all knowing there would be no suffering on earth. How could a benevolent god who is all powerful and all knowing allow suffering? If you had the power to stop human suffering like god would you just let it happen?
yet you’ve judged mankind multiple times in your post. If you can not truthfully say you love every child of God, you are in a sinful state.
being one example.
he’s not in a position to judge us. Again bring the example of the young child and yourself. Do you think it fair to use the same standards to judge a fellow adult as when judging a child? Do you think an immortal perfect being could fairly judge your mortal imperfect self?
again what about the people who never had the ten commandments to follow. Alot of mankind was born and died before christ came to earth. Without hearing christs message or the ten commandments they are pretty much SOL in your opinion.
yes indeed. Fear. Is it a necessary component of love? I would argue that the two are incompatible. It’s often cliched that the seperation between love and hate are very thin. I would argue that any person who truly understands compassion and love knows that the seperation is a large chasm. Fear is not a valid form of awe and respect. Just because a christian based dictionary, thesaurus say that there is doesn’t make it any more valid IMO.
well more what I’m saying is that “Awe” is not related to fear. I am brought in Awe of how president bush acts in the global community. I am awestruck that a parent can starve their kids. I do not fear such acts. (thought some people do fear bushes acts)
well that’s certainly the altruistic option. The question is can you change someone that thinks they are following “the way”? no matter how dogmatically flawed that way is?
there’s no doubt the governments have done things for money that are abhorable, and it will come back to bite them in the ass… but the megacorps go a step above and beyond when it comes to greed.
agree
there was a new movie that came out that covered that topic. That the ends justifies the means. (swordfish) I would completely disagree, and found the “moral” view of the movie deplorable.
both sides are caught in the same feedback loop. The terrorists kidnap to get their means, and we kill terrorists to end their means. (and families in the process).
this is very nearly a different topic now, but I would also very nearly disagree with this. I think that a battle against terrorism is justified, if we didn’t try and stop it we’d have more building plowed with airplanes, train bombings etc. They way it’s being done is certainly questionable, but how do you fight an underground force that takes on the face of whatever country it currently happens to be in?
I really doubt that, from the exit polls I saw, the religious voters for bush only increased by 2% and they picked moral reasons, while the non-religious voters increased by about 7% and they stated that it’s better to stay the course at this point. If anything it’s Karl Roves marketing that kept Bush in office. They made Kerry seem to be a shifty unstable person for this precarious time we are in.
well if “christ” as in the bible did exist (which is seriously questionable), it’s certainly pragmatic to say that you are the way, but there are other ways that are just as valid.
hence the reason alot of churches sieve members. They develop beyond the canned spiritual goodness of the church. For alot of these people there is nowhere for them to turn. and another portion of these keep going to church even though it doesn’t fit them anymore.
I would agree that we should respect “smaller” religious communities, firstly though we need to get rid of religious globalization, being done by mormons, muslims and catholics. Other christians sects are trying that but none are as accomplished as those three.
I read it I don’t see that it applies. unless you think we are living currently in hell because we are not with god? that’s an interesting idea to be for sure, it could relate to the buddhist teachings of nirvana and reincarnation, that one is continually reincarnated to “hell” because they haven’t reached enlightenment yet. Haven’t found the path to heaven yet. Some of may even choose to return to hell, because we enjoy swallowing in the moroseness of human emotion.
just a thought? or maybe I’m getting close to something here. The similiarities between “the ways” may back this up. That in fact we are on Earth to become enlightened and god like, and if we fail we return, and that never-ending cycle is what hell is?
on a side note:
here’s a quote from a site I support:
but it’s not just corporations that have done this, the governments have definately helped!
Second, think of the little that God asks of us. He wants us to love Him and ask for forgiveness when we do something wrong. Even children are capable of that so it is not really “undisciplined discipline.”
I am sure many cultures and religions have thought of this. It is a good rule. It does not refute the fact that it is also part of Christianity and that it is a hard rule to fulfill.
The Bible also tells us that every person in the world will have a chance to follow Christianity. Maybe they have not been shown a Bible, but very possibly God has acted through someone close to them or spoken to them. To doubt the abilities of an almighty God is not too bright.
No, like you and everyone else, I live in a sinful state. But that is something any decent religion, true or not, should tell it’s followers. Otherwise you get people like Hitler and Osama bin Laden who believe that they are superior to everyone else and therefore have a right to exterminate everyone else.
So it is like eating. You eat until you are full, but you just get hungry again. Darn redundancy of life.
Yes, you can pray alone. But churches serve to introduce people to God who do not have the virtue of growing up in a Christian family. They also serve as a christian community when you wander from the christian path. They also help preserve God’s message so it is not distorted by individuals. (Though I do realize it has been already, but it does the best it can do.)
God allows suffering because He gives us free will, and we bring the suffering upon ourselves. If we assume a parent loves their child, is that parent going to let the child learn from mistakes, or just prevent the child from doing anything that would cause the child to suffer. Bliss is only found through ignorance, and we gave that up when we ate from the tree of knowledge. I also heard The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis explains this more, but I have not read it myself.
The statement is qualified with an “if” so it is not really judging, and I am not condemning you to hell. But if you believe I am, as a christian I will first ask you for forgiveness and then ask God for forgiveness.
First, I think it is better for the adult to judge the child than for a child to judge a child. Second, God made himself mortal when He came to earth as Jesus Christ, so he is perfectly able to judge mortals. And again, He does not ask us for much.
I already answered for those who don’t have the Bible. Those who came before Christ, I don’t know. It will get pretty mixed up if we go further and try to combine the book of Genesis with the theory of evolution. I think it says in Revelation that everyone will be judged at the apocalypse, so maybe that includes those who were before Christ.
Fear is not part of love, and hate is a result of love, but if you want to hear my opinions on that, it would best be suited for another thread. As for “fear” try to realize that I am referring to a completely different definition. Just as overlook, which means both “to look over:inspect” and “to look past:miss” has two contradictory definitions, “fear” has two separate definitions.
If you had the power would you stop human suffering?
Is god more powerful than you?
Is god free to act?
Why is there suffering?
if the christian god has the power to stop these things by these very attributes, why doesn’t he/she?
It’s really a simple question. with a simple answer. God is either not all powerful, or not free to act. one or the other. Or the third option, the christian god is a construct for control.
yes but think of all the people that didn’t hear the “good news” they are damned to hell! all the million of people that came before christ after they evolved from our ape ancestors. Their screwed, according to the christian plan.
only when christianity complicates things with original sin. The golden rule is as simple to follow as lending someone a quarter for the phone.
exactly, and just like absolute agape love must have limits so too must pacifism. Do you think Hitler would’ve stopped if the French held up signs saying “hell no we won’t go” oh wait, we already know the answer to that!
and finally I’m going to extrapolate more on this idea, that is really hitting home with me.
that idea? that this is hell, and all the recipients within hell are the recycled souls who haven’t yet reach Nirvana to reach the next stage. It’s not such a bad place when you think about it, except for the absence of god. It’s really the meaning and purpose that drives us all, is to reconnect with god. Some people are able to do it through religion. But it’s just a false connection and they will be recycled because they lost site of the true path to enlightenment. I think that “hell” was never meant to be the place of great evil that christianity strives to make it. So you take a bit longer to reach enlightenment we’ll all get their eventually. Most paths lead to the same location.
the christians who truly believe that anybody who follows the gold rule without hearing about a specific guy who farted on friday is still sol, they are dirty animals and will be treated accordingly.
all people SHOULD know that treating your neighbor like yourself is the law. its what groups of equals should be doing, even if it wont selfishly help you. if you dont understand that, and your an island man who never saw a bible, and you run around and rape and rob people, you deserve punishment of some kind.
the ten commandments, except honor thy mother+father which is really just advice and certainly doesnt apply to those failure parents we can all imagine, and except for the ultimately pointless god rules, and the anti-coveting which is again advice for your own well being, the no-steal no-kill stuff is clearly obvious when you look at gods only real message to us, the one that was evenly distributed to all creatures living in any kind of society: the appearance of the universe itself. you can hurt others, they can hurt you. hurt = bad. dont hurt. enough said.
christians, the only reason why my religion, the omnisoul, works at all is because there is a hidden reason why we need to treat our neighbor like ourselves. the omnisoul was “knocked out of harmony” some time in the past, and today we, the broken up individiual components of the omnisoul are here in the ‘re-harmonizer’ so that “the right hand of the omnisoul” may become accustomed to working together with “the left hand of the omnisoul” so that the two can someday come back together as one and work more efficiently than if the hands had not spent the past 4000 years learning about the golden rule in the universe.
your religion takes the golden rule, and does not use my assumption that the good accomplished by following the golden rule correlates to or is an analogy for or is a placeholder for some greater good that we cannot comprehend.
if you dont assume that the good accomplished by following the golden rule is indicative of some greater good beyond our understanding, what exactly is the purpose of this place?
to make souls happy? god creates souls so that he may tickle them and jerk them off? and he created an exclusive club for the nice guys so that no jerks can take advantage of god after he creates them? wont god create an infinite surplus of souls or will the universe end before the club gets too crowded?
is god’s purpose to do something great using the earth and the empirical goods it can accomplish? is there a purpose that the souls in heaven have? like they are some elite group that makes morality based decisions elsewhere?
does god just not say and we are supposed to not question it? would all christians then accept my theory about it? would they accept my theory if i stipulated that god MUST have zero effect on the souls so as to not corrupt their selfless misson? why do christians spend billions of dollars on pretty objects that are completely and absolutely pointless?
Or a fourth option, that the Christian God and evil aren't explicitly contradictory, like you're assuming they are. I challenge you to explain exactly how the two concepts contradict. So far, all you've provided is that it [i]seems like[/i] at first glance that a good God wouldn't allow evil. That's not good enough, if you're actually trying to make a philosophical argument.
Show me this Christian plan, according to which all these folks are screwed. The Bible itself, in Revelation, describes the saved as being from every tribe, every race, and evey country. (Rev 5:7) Again, the message is repeated in Revelation (7:9). Jesus Himself says that
“…I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 8:10-11.
Clearly, there is a means to salvation for those that haven’t heard the Scriptures. Paul alludes to it here in Romans:
“Indeed, when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,”
Apparently what a person needs, in abscence of Scripture, can be found in the human conscience. Now, I’ve shown you a Scriptural case for why your argument that “anyone who hasn’t read the Bible is going to hell according to Christianity”. Show me your evidence that Christianity entails the opposite.
1: If god is both good and evil (good and evil flow from him like the hindus believe) then he is not perfect. If he is not perfect, he doesn’t need to be our creator. the other problem with evil flowing from god, is that if he does evil towards man, or allows evil towards man, is that really a “god” you wan’t to worship? The problem is that this model of god is twisted in that it allows things to happen that any average human can see is completely screwed up.
2: Christs ultimate sacrifice was to save us from original sin. Original sin requires special creation. Evolution shows that special creation didn’t happen. This shows that Original sin was just a hebrew myth. Which shows that if you believe in christ’s only value was to save you from sin you are gravely in error.
the christian plan. Only through christ are you allowed into heaven. Never mind the millions of souls who died before christ was born, their screwed one way ticket to hell. why you ask? because according to the christians we are a slave to original sin, and only by knowing that and accepting christ are you set free and granted entrance to heaven.
of course Paul wrote that the jewish forefathers made it into heaven, remember christ didn’t replace the covenant. So all the jewish figureheads of the past were allowed into heaven. Even though Moses was a war monger. He killed 3000 of the people he was trying to save when they tried sacrificing a golden bull. Apparently that’s ok with god. Kill those who don’t follow the word? do you think that’s ok?
what? he doesnt “need” to be our creator? do you just mean that he doesnt jive with some stupid bible quote? nothing in reality suggests that because something creates, it is perfect.
not if you are trying to selfishly help only yourself in this life and you dont care about anything else. but if you are that person, then this whole idea of being a nice, society-loving person wont appeal to you anyway. so screw you and get off my planet.
god allows people to make bad decisions so that making good decisions is an accomplishment and a step forward in the re-harmonizing project.
if you were born with a boner, and it never went away and it constantly felt like you were having sex, i can imagine that it would feel good to begin with, but honestly, wouldnt it get old? would you ever care about actually having sex? would the rare act of sex have the great implications and pleasure as it does? i woudnt want to be constantly whacking off; i wouldnt want to live in a universe without the possibility for evil. good doesnt look so good when theres no bad to compare it to.
evil sucks when you get too much, but who said you werent hitler last time? or that the purpose of the universe cant possibly require harsh polishing agents?
yep, christians are hilariously wrong, but they mostly dont believe the stupid parts of their religion anymore. you havent brought up any arguments that say how christians are fundamentally wrong other than how their stupid scriptural details are wrong.
One paragraph on the problem, and three pages of solutions. In case you didn’t notice, the Problem of Evil isn’t the ultimate defeater of Christianity you make it out to be- all forms of the deductive problem of evil fail, and even the probabilistic forms of the argument are questionable.
Hooray, it’s your pet theory that you feel the need to stick in every single thread you participate in, regardless of what it’s about. Remember the previous two times I showed you why this argument fails, and you changed the subject? Refer back to them.
I just showed you plenty of Biblical quotes that contradict that. According to the Bible, [i]plenty of people who never heard of Christ will be in Heaven[/i]. I asked you to provide evidence to the contrary, and the above is just you repeating your assertion over again with no evidence provided.
Which already contradicts your claim that Christianity teaches that anyone who lived in the BC will go to hell. It doesn’t, and you’re on the track to admitting it. Won’t stop you for criticizing Christianity for it anyway, as soon as you think I’m not watching, I’m sure!
Changing the subject? You!?! Never!
The problem of evil fails, and the accusation that Christianity teaches all non-Christians will go to hell is groundless. That is what I stepped in to discuss.
let me expound upon that. he doesn’t need to be our creator, because the universe runs fine without him.
that’s very true there is nothing in the universe that suggests perfect creation, now your catching on.
what? are you just ranting about something that has NOTHING to do with what I said there.
the re-harmonizing project
I admit my idea of hell on earth and recycled souls was a little wierd, but your omni-soul re-harmonizing ideas, are … to bizarre for words.
interesting example, but I don’t see how it proves your omni-soul or any god for that matter.
ok, but if evil flows from god, then god is = to satan. if god is satan the heaven is hell. If hell is heaven, then what does it matter what you do?
as for no “evil” to compare good to? who says that he’d (or she?) would have to remove “all evil”, instead heshe could just limit our “evil” actions.
(my theory on evil is that very few people are actually sadistically evil, most people who do “evil” are in fact acting in what they think is the best course of action. An ill thought one, but the thinker is only human nonetheless.
Hitler wasn’t evil… extremely misguided. Manson… he was evil. Ted Bundy? evil. I think Hitler crossed the threshold near the end of his life.
what’s the point future man? I’ll just leave you to thoughtlessly bash christianity. All my arguments are at the very least well thought out. (well I try to make them that way!)
when we stop questioning we become “stuck”. I’m glad you questioned that article and didn’t immediately say “dammit scythekain is right, christianity is fundamentally flawed!” honestly that would dissapoint me greatly.
I don’t stick it in every thread do I? it’s not in the other god thread. (goes to look) It’s certainly not in my “can we become better by looking at our ape ancestors?” thread.
Yes I know you did. If you REALLY want me to I’ll pull up scriptures that contradict that, then you’ll pull up more scriptures that contradict that, so on to infinity. (or until one of us concedes, this debate)
so you caught me in a mis-statement. Or did you? Paul didn’t admit any minor characters of the bible to “heaven” just a few major and minor prophets. Is that really that inconcievable that Paul would write about characters he was taught about his whole life? It’s no different than modern day religious writings from kids books (veggie tales) to adult ones (left behind).
I thought you were still busy watching YOGHI!
Changing the subject is healthy. I don’t like getting stuck on the same subject. It creates too much tension sometimes. So a topic can morph and evolve. Look at this one, it started with all I thought was wrong with christianity, and now I’m posting my “spiritual” theory and Future man is pushing the omnisoul.
I honestly need to regroup my thoughts on that subject. I don’t feel fully ready to answer that… but I’ll answer some of the points posted on this site:
(note that even he comes to the conclusion that it is possible for non-christians to get into heaven)
now, here’s an interesting note… the notion that we are seperated from god. but what caused the seperation, was it really man’s sinful nature? If you read the bible you’ll see that the “lord” was talking in various form to the prophets at least 300 years before christ came on the scene.
Which raises some questions.
Why did god stop communicating with jews at this point?
Were the authors of these books not actually talking to god? That’s the only way to fulfill the seperation from god. And if they weren’t talking to god who were they talking to?
now here’s a funny one. You spend your life living the christian ruleset on the promise that you get to spend an eternity with god… but just what does an eternity with god entail?
Let’s say I have a box painted black, and I say “go out and do good deeds and the rewards within this box will be yours.”,“Go out and don’t worry about finding clothes or food for yourselves, as long as you believe in the reward within the box, you will be protected.”
Would you do what I said on the promise of a reward in the box? How do you know you won’t open the box to find a ball of lint?
And with god, since we’ve established evil flows from god, how do you know god, won’t make you his stool pigeon? Just for his evil sadistic side?
well, again the jews didn’t think so, and god didn’t tell them anything like that. The jews believed another “savior” Yeshua would come amongst them, for certain. And there were many Yeshuas that came and none had the influence of yeshua of nazarene. Warrior, leader of the local essene tribe that John the baptist was apart of. Of course that’s general speculation from the history I’ve read.
see black box model.
some christians would say it takes faith and works. I would say they are pulling the wool over their eyes. there’s nothing wrong with good deeds, it’s great to be altruistic and help others. Does there really need to be a god up high to “enforce” good deed behavior?
so are Tyre and Sidon still around in modern day? And if they are could you (being god) judge Korazin more harshly because they didn’t accept christs teachings 2000 years ago?
and a final note… jesus sounds a little like “chicken-little”.
not too mention that for being a god he should have known the stars aren’t in “the sky” where they could fall. This is obviously someone with a Terracentric view of the galaxy.
But your link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_problem_of_evil) goes even further to explain much of this. Though it does not answer for what it calls “acts of God.” To answer this, refer to the book of Job (Old Testament.) Does God cause any of the suffering endured by Job? No, that all is the result of a little somebody called Satan, and ultimately Job is blessed by God.
Uccisore did a good job of explaining this.
Original sin has nothing to do with it. I believe I already explained why it is difficult in my first post:
As for your idea:
Why then is the population growing? Doesn’t it make sense that as more souls make it to nirvana and out of “hell” that the population of “hell” would decrease if only populated by “recycled souls”? And why would souls begin life in hell? Why would we want to reconnect with a god who lets everyone suffer in “hell” before we have done anything wrong? Regardless, that idea sounds a lot like something from a Buddhism-in-a-nutshell website with a few modifications made to it.
its fun to preach just like a christian! except i 
what? he doesnt “need” to be our creator? do you just mean that he doesnt jive with some stupid bible quote? nothing in reality suggests that because something creates, it is perfect.