Are you people a bunch of atheists?

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
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Hi there. :sunglasses: I got your attention. Hehehe. :stuck_out_tongue: The original (serious) title of this post was to be, “Philosophy = atheism?” So with that, let us get on with our business, shan’t we?

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Toto? there’s something funny about this place
There are no steeples! Call me slow … but I’m just catching on to something. The field of proper, bearded Philosophy seems comprised, perhaps 99%, of thinkers who turn down their collective noses on the proposition of the existence of ‘skygods’. So I’m wondering. Is there such a thing as a Christian Philosopher? Can you name a “big one”? It seems that all the truly big ones who get quoted round these parts– Nietzsche, Descartes, Socrates, Aristotle, so on –are uniformly and often passionately atheistic in their views.

you didn’t ask
You didn’t ask but I’m going to relay a quick personal history of liberation. I was born into a loosely Baptist family and in fact held a firm in the God of the Bible throughout most of my life. Yet, I have since grown away from this belief in a fatherly figure God and have come to more easily balk and sneer at the traditional Church which would so readily impose guilt and instill fear into the hearts of children; fear of eternal damnation to a fiery hell.

“Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should DIE before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take.”

Ecck. John Bradshaw, the best-selling “inner child” movement guru, once said this bedtime prayer is a hell of a thing for a child to be raised on, and I agree.

philosophy synonymous with atheism?
So anyways, as my education has broadened and my understanding of science has grown, the tenets of literal creationism have become utterly insupportable. But I still have great respect for those who are able to believe; nay, I even envy my fellow regilious sojourners to a great degree! As one person on the 'Net has said,

“Is it better to be wise and know the awful truth, or ignorant and live the beautiful lie?”

And so it is, I have been just a tad taken aback by the open hostility towards those who would devote their lives in honorable and benevolent good works in the name of their faith.

Did you know that Ken Jennings is a Mormon?

He’s a smart little mo’fugger, with 600 grand in the pot and twenty days straight running on the TV game show Jeopardy. Well, he worships the ‘skygods’ - and you wouldn’t think of him as very easily deceived (‘beguiled’ as our distinguished member Polemarchus puts it), would you?

Have a wonderful day and thanks for reading my post.

-John

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“Are you all a bunch of atheists”

Us smarter ones are

Not having sex before marraige, not drinking or getting high,hating gays and science, murdering those that believe differently.doesn’t seem so beautiful to me. Don’t kid yourself man. Religion is the greatest evil in the world.

You envy…the ignorant, in intolerant, the most evil creatures on this planet? In 1999 religious nutcases got Evolution banned from Kansas public schools for a short period of time, before some non-morons came in and showed the error of the people’s ways. Do you remember 9/11?

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Firstly, I am not sure about Aristotle but I know Plato uses Socrates to mention the Idea of the Good as being even above the Forms… certainly read like a concept of god to me.

As far as Christian Philosophers (Theologians) go. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas have to be considered the two most infuential.
St. Augustine was a big proponent of Plato, although his idealistic outlook was certainly tempered by his belief in Man’s Fallen Nature.

Aquinas was a huge proponent of Aristotle. It is from Aquinas (and from him: Aristotle’s teleological (sp) arguments) that you get Divine Law and Natural Law. Present Day, the concept of Natural Law still resonates throughout large portions of the Christian faith in regards to HomoSexuality. (It was argued thusly: The purpose of sex is to reproduce, pleasure is but a side effect, or more aptly, a temptation to be avoided. Being that sex is only meant for reproduction, Sodomy cannot fit that purpose… thus sodomy is a denial of natural law).

I recently read an argument where a Feminist pointed out that it is all fine and good for men to assume that pleasure from sex is just an unnecessary side effct and that god had intended the penis strictly for reproduction… the clitorous itself is not necessary for reproduction, so it’s purpose must be strictly for pleasure… meaning God wants people to enjoy sex ( or at least women… damn them :smiley: )
Classical Philosophy is extremely interesting once you start delving into it and learn just how big of an influence it held ( Aristotle can rightfully be said as being the most influential thinker in History… and usually for the wrong reasons). Thus when the Enlightenment rolled around, there was an unstated need to dethrone Plato and Aristotle as being the final authorities on what was reasonable.

As far as Philosophy and Atheism goes… for me it was never until I began to study Philosophy (esp. Plato) that I could really appreciate the idea of the Absolute. ANd seeing it now as possibly being something beyond all human conception and possibly beyond all human reason… ever… I must admit that I moved from being an Atheist to an Agnostic.

IMHO Atheism requires a kind of conceit… to accept the claim that God does not or cannot exist could, in itself, requires Absolute knowledge… thus God is replaced by the speaker making the claim… the speaker, who must now have absolute knowledge in order to truly know if his claim is correct or not. The speaker might as well call himself God… thus the conceit.

Anyway, thats my take

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To continue my rant…

In the bible it makes many references to Men are superior to women.

Don’t covet your neighbor’s wife or ass – or any thing that belongs to your neighbor. You see, in the eyes of God, women are the possessions of men. Deutoronomy 5:21

When in war…If you see a pretty woman among the captives and would like her for a wife, then just bring her home and “go in unto her.” Later, if you decide you don’t like her, you can “let her go.” Deutoromy 21:11-14

If a man dies before his wife has a child, then the widow must marry her husband’s brother – whether she likes him or not, and whether she wants to or not. Deutoronomy 25:5

“If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die.” Deutoronomy 22:22

Keep away from unbelievers. Neither marry nor be friends with them. 2 corinthians 6:14-17

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. Matthew 5:29-30

Cruelty in Matthew

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned “with unquenchable fire.” 3:10, 12

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

“the children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 8:12

Jesus shows no compassion for the bereaved, saying to a man who had just lost his father: “Let the dead bury the dead.” 8:21

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

Cities that neither “receive” the disciples nor “hear” their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few “prophecies” in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:21

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and “able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” 10:28

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Jesus will send his angels to gather up “all that offend” and they “shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” 13:41-42, 50

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it’s better to be “maimed” than to suffer “everlasting fire.” 18:8-9

Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It’ll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

God will come when people least expect him and then he’ll “cut them asunder.” And “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 24:50-51

The servant who kept and returned his master’s talent was cast into the “outer darkness” where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 25:30

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an “everlasting fire.” 25:41

Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

I could go on forever…the bible teaches that women who have sex before marraige should be stoned to death, kids who disobey there parents should be stoned to death. Humans are born sinners and that you must constantly be ashamed of yourself and your body which is a temple of temptation for sinning.

You really should read the bible and read Nietzsche attack on Christianity.

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“IMHO Atheism requires a kind of conceit… to accept the claim that God does not or cannot exist could, in itself, requires Absolute knowledge… thus God is replaced by the speaker making the claim… the speaker, who must now have absolute knowledge in order to truly know if his claim is correct or not. The speaker might as well call himself God… thus the conceit”

Atheism mean you don’t believe in the existence of God’s. It does not require absolute knowledge to believe that God’s don’t exist , just like it doesn’t require absolute knowledge to believe that Santa Claus doesn’t exist. Or to believe that 2+2=4 requires absolute knowledge. That is all ridiculous. By your standard I should not believe anything.

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Thats a fairly narrow minded and derogatory view, BWSU.

Humans are the greatest evil in the world. It is humans who take extremist and hardline views, in ignorance. It is those who take religion as an excuse to do evil things that deserve condemnation, not religion in itself.

Before you pigion-hole me as an ignorant, God believing fool, I will say that I do believe in God, but I do not consider myself a fool. I am well educated in science, and I understand the scientific creation theories. But that doesn’t mean I think I am above believing in a creating God, because lets face it, we know fuck all.

We can all have our faiths and beliefs, and I am not going to shoot down anyone just because their beliefs are different than mine.

Generalisation is one of the greatest forms of ignorance.

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This is just the kind of thinking that I would have expected someone to believe. First saying humans are the greatest evil in the world is an absurd statement. Since what we humans regard as evil can only be human or happen to humans…so without humans there would be no evil nor good either since those are just human conceptions. Secondly, your belief that humans are “evil” stems directly from the notion that you are born a “sinner”.

If you were well educated in science you wouldn’t believe in God creating world. Thats any oxymoron.

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I am not up on my Christmas lore, but I never once heard it argued that Santa Clause was an All PowerFul, All Knowing, Infinite Being.

And because you, your family, or every living creature on this planet doesn’t believe something exists, doen’t make it so. Belief in the Non Existence of a thing is different in the belief in the existence of a thing how?? I mean when you boil it down… both are but beliefs… right?
Or do you possess some knowledge other mortals don’t?
See the quoted argument above.

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What are you talking about? You are not even making sense.

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I am not saying you should believe in God.

And you seem to be confusing my concept of an All PowerFull, All Knowing, Infinite being with the Judeo Christian God.

Personally, my concept of an All Powerful, All Knowing, Infinite being wouldn’t need to choose a tribe a people as his own nor sacrifice his only begotten son.

But what I conceive of (heh)and what he is is most probably two different things… if such a thing even exists, it might not, but I bet its a lonnnnnnnnggggggg time before anyone “proves” it one way or the other.

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So, if someone is educated in science, then it is impossible for them to believe in God. Hmm quite a large call that.

Perhaps you could explain to me, with irreputable proof, the grand unifying theories of the universe, how it came to be, in scientific terms, and you may as well throw in all the other mysteries of the universe that you have solved. If you can’t well perhaps we can look at existing science to explain that, but hang on, none of those things have been done yet. When you can do that, I might think about changing my views on God creating the universe, but as it is there is no scientific proof that God does or does not exist. Its all about what we believe.

Obviously, you are a dedicated athiest, which I have no problem with. But do not cast aspersions on all those that have a different belief and faith system to you.

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You don’t believe God exists… As a being, as a concept, a potential extension into the realm of perfection etc

Just note the believe part.

Thats all I be saying… honest.

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Define God. Is your definition of God different then the Judeo/Christian version? Once you define your God, then I will be able to scientifically show you how it is impossible for him to create the universe.

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Define God. Is your definition of God different then the Judeo/Christian version? Once you define your God, then I will be able to scientifically show you how it is impossible for him to create the universe.

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Hmmm
Hmmm

Hmm what to say… ponders
Hmm

maybe… ok
My definition:
God is that which( in being and in action, and with no conception of if the two are truly seperate) is impossible to define by the scientific method.

Best of luck.

Edit to note That, again, I am an agnostic… I don’t necessarily assume that God Exists. I just know enough to know that I cannot deny the possibility of existence.

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Also, could you give a scientific explanation around this too… please, it is important to me

“We cannot [more reasonably] truly know who we are, in part or in whole, and be who we are at the same time.”

Thanks in advance.

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The God I believe in is in essence the Judeo/Christian God, however, I don’t take everything in the bible at face value. It is important to realise that the bible was written by men, not God himself and thus it is bound to be distorted. For instance, I do not hold much belief in the Genesis creation, it sounds slightly fairy taleish. I believe that God created the universe though, as stated already, whether through the big bang (which also has not yet been proven, there are other scientific creation theories out there, but they have not been popularised) or some other means. I also believe in the theory of evolution, but of course, because I believe God created the universe, I believe that God gave organisms the ability to evolve.

I hope you realise that never before in the history of mankind has the existance of God been scientifically disproven, so maybe we should gather some people around so that there will be witnesses and you can claim the honour.

Seriously though man, I am quite happy that you have your beliefs and I’ll have mine. The only reason I got involved was due to your derogatory comments basically. I doubt I can shake your faith in atheism any more than you can shake mine in Christainity.

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While I agree with you on some of that, I don’t think that religion is to blame for all of it. People are. First off, the people are the ones who made the religion. Secondly, most of the religious people who do radical intolerant things do it in defiance of their own religions. Unfortunately there is no shortage of hypocrisy. I think that a bunch of idiots have given religion a bad name. Christianity, Judeism, Islam (sorry if this is any of you, no offence meant, honest) are religions for lazy people. Christianity is the worst. All you have to do is believe in them, and that is it. Go to church on Sunday and sit there maybe. For people who have no tolerance for actually learning things and working to find answers themselves, that is optimal. It’s really no wonder that they attract morons to them. You don’t see a bunch of hypocritical idiots spouting Buddhist philosophies. You know why that is? Because Buddhism is too complex, and way too much work for your average idiot. It takes a hell of a lot of devotion, discipline, and patience to be a Buddhist. Buddhism doesn’t provide answers for you all nice and neat. It simply gives you the means for finding those answers yourself. YOU have to do all the work. Of course that doesn’t fly with western civilization. They’d rather keep believing obviously false notions then lift a finger for transcendental wisdom. While the religions that retain the most hypocrites do have a few fundamental flaws in their theologies and such, it is really the people who are flawed, not religion itself. I think that if Buddhism would’ve developed in the west, science and religion would go hand in hand. They do if you study both, or at least sure seem to. Nothing in Buddhism, Taoism, or Hinduism conflicts with any modern scientific fact at all as far as I can tell. All the things that scientists don’t believe from those religions can’t be, and have not been disproved. As far as scientists know, those religious philosophies could be correct.

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I’ve read the bible. I don’t remember any shit like that. What I remember from it goes more like Jesus saving prostitutes from angry mobs, rejecting Jewish doctrines, eye for an eye doctrine, greed and capitalism, etc. What bible have you been reading?

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Billwalton I looked up your quotes of Deuteronomy in the Torah and heres what I found.

This doesn’t exist at least not in Deutoronomy 5:21.

Lets have the real quote please. “and you’ll see among the prisoner a woman with a beautiful figure, and you’ll be attracted to her and take her for yourself as a wife, then you shall bring her into your house, and she shall shave her head and do her nails and take away her prisoner’s garment from on her. And she shall live in your house and shall mourn her father and her mother a month of days. And after that you may come and marry her, and she shall become your wife. And it will be, if you don’t desire her then you shall let her go on her own, and you shall not sell her for money. You shall not profit through her, because you degraded her.”

Now compare that to how men then and even now act in regards to women durring war. Rape. The Torah is obviously much more progressive then mans usual nature durring war.

This quote proves that men are treated equally not supriorly to women. Both the man and woman comiting adultry are sentenced to death.

Next time you quote please try direct sources and not quotes you find on some internet site.