“Atheists need a church of sorts for themselves…to support moral, ethical and right living.”
All quotes are from alt.atheism
C wrote:
“The majority of people working in “humanitarian” religious organizations does this probably in good faith, but most of their leaders do not. In fact most of them deserve the attribute hypocritical quite well.”
V:
Yes, very true in many cases I run into.
“Trade curses everything it touches and even though you trade in ‘messages from heaven’ trade attaches itself and the whole thing becomes cursed.” Thoreau.
But don’t forget the ‘hypocrite atheist and secular humanist’ as well in your analysis. See the discussion below to prove the point that as James Allen. reminds us - “Victories attained by right thought can only be maintained by watchfulness. Many give way when success is assured and rapidly fall back into failure.”
V wrote:
“…a true fellowship for the atheists to ‘practice what they preach’… that sounds like a sorely needed tool. I’ve always said that atheists need a church of sorts for themselves, to support moral, ethical and right living.”
PF responds:
“Bullsh*t. I am not that weak. The only thing I need to “support moral, ethical and right living” is simple human empathy and compassion. That anyone would need anything else is a mystery to me. Perhaps I’m just a better person than they are.”
One common area we all seem to suffer from is that of egoist judgementalism. Whenever we meet others we can tend to pigeon hole these individuals into the following 3 groups. The person is either judged better than us or an equal to us or below us. This is an area I work to be mindful of and reduce it and not promote it, for it stems from the ego. What helps me is to practice humility, practice compassion by looking for insight into the other person suffering and to see these types of judgments as ego based and not useful and to nip them I the bud when they pop up.
The dictionary defines judgmental as: determination, verdict, decree, discrimination, sagacity, wisdom, prudence, taste. To be able to form a judgment is defined as: to have the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively and wisely. The only negative term I try to avoid in the definition of judgmental is “discrimination.” Prejudicial discrimination is defined as: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought or reason. I try not to discriminate against others and subscribe to “live and let live.”
Lets look at PF’s claim that the only thing he needs to “support moral, ethical and right living” is simple human empathy and compassion. Yes, he has that right as far as ‘needs,’ but if we look at his life expressed through his words - it shows a bankrupt PF in the areas of moral, ethical and right living via simple human empathy and compassion. It is as the 12 step saying goes…if you talk the talk you have to walk the walk…for the talk to be any good.
PF writes on the subject of human empathy and compassion to support moral, ethical and right living:
“Then don’t whine like a btch when your btt gets f*cked,”
“…Take it (bible) and shove it up that smelly little anus you’re using for a c*nt.”
“You’re not smart enough, or brave enough to be an atheist. Keep your idiotic dead-jew-on-a-stick, b*ttsuck. Fear of it is probably the only thing keeping you from having sex with your siblings.”
“Shaddap, b*tch. If I want your opinion, I’ll give you one.”
“Go f*ck yourself, Christian…Were I a violent man, I’d advocate you all being rounded up and jailed, to keep you from ruining other lives.”
“Go fck yourself, shtstain. You come in here and insult people-and then whine about the reception you get? F*ck, I wish it caused you psyical pain to be so ruthlessly stupid.”
“FCK OFF ya brainless fcking tw*t!”
"F*ck Jesus. Your dead-jew-on-a-stick probably never existed, and if he did, he was man-not a god. I don’t take “commands” from an illiterate, superstious Bronze Age peasant.’
“What are you doing back here, you dumb b*tch-assed punk? Ways of disposing with the human garbage called “missionaries” is very definately on-topic.”
“I’m just really tired of the myth that atheists have no emotional feelings simply because we don’t believe in gods. It’s like they’re telling me I’m not human.”
“Of course, dehumanization is the most common tool of the bigot…”
Well, PF does comes through with a little humanity with his last 2 quotes. He shows his emotional makeup in his writings and gets at the root cause of some of his hostility. Maybe people question your lack of humanity PF and you are confusing this with the question of being human? When you were a Baptist PF, were you as hateful? You can most certainly be human PF, but not be humane. PF summarizes his efforts at atheism with the truth when he writes… ‘dehumanization is the most common tool of the bigot.’ You can correct your lack of humanity PF by increasing your empathy and compassion as you talk about, but fall short of actually doing PF.
Without spiritual values, the atheist is sunk. The conundrum of the mind manacled, defiance based, spiritually sick atheist is this. They need spiritual values to be at peace - yet their own defiance blocks them from seeking and finding these values.
The atheist that only has a foundation of ego and hate will never find peace. If any theist questioning their faith should wonder onto alt.atheism, for instance, they could see this for themselves with many spiritually sick example members and their projection of this spiritual sickness and self hate onto others.
What is missing in these atheists lives?
Do they need to get religion?
Not necessarily.
As we see, many people claiming to be religious are just as bad off as atheists or sometimes worse.
“People that practice religion are worried about going to hell - people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and don’t want to go back.”
Spiritual values is what they are short on.
Such atheists full of defiance and devoid of spiritual values are ‘dogmatic skeptics’, whereas atheists that are open to spiritual values are of the order of ‘skeptical skeptics.’ The spiritual based atheists have not forgotten ‘All Deities reside within the human breast’ as Blake wrote. There is a world of difference between the two types of atheists…a night and day difference. The spiritual based atheists ‘deifies humanity and peace’ the defiance based atheist ‘deifies their ego’ and loses any connection with humanity and becomes a haggard, shell of a human.
A lot of atheists I run into make their intellect their God. They do not know that academic smarts are not the same as peace smarts. Until they can transcend their ego they will never find the answer (peace) they seek. It is the same for those that think money is all that is standing between them and happiness. So it goes for the ego and intellect based person that is devoid of spiritual values. Always remember…one thing only goes so far with giving a person a good life. Seek balance. Spiritual growth as well as humans are not perfect, but we can all do better at being humane if we try.
See:
jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ … ?topic=4.0
There are many flavors of atheists. Beside natural atheists, personal atheists, explicit atheists, implicit atheists weak atheists and strong atheists and bad ass atheists with attitude…Atheists can be ‘spiritual based atheists’ or ‘defiance based atheists.’ I have to laugh sometimes when I read the fantasies of atheists that think atheism will take over the world. It would take a different brand of atheist to persuade many to change if they investigate the online atheists of the usenet to any degree.
In short you must become spiritual based atheists to offer something to the religious crowd instead of the defiance based atheists that many of you are.We can examine our actions to see what useful tools for finding peace we offer to others. This evaluation says a lot about our own practice of generating inner peace.
But, spiritual values and atheists do not generally mix. One atheists gave his views on this subject of discussing spiritual tools to live by:
AK writes:
“What is spirit or spirituality? Without knowing what you mean by the word, one can’t know what you mean. Why study something for which you not only have no evidence, but not even a definition?”
Yes, spiritual concepts are hard to define, just as the source of the wind is hard to define. Since spiritual matters deal with the unseen and the unknown, how can we define them perfectly? If we could do that they would not be spiritual studies. You can’t see why one person is loving and kind and another person is a fiend of perennial shame, hate and destruction. Nor can you see what made the hate monger change into a kind and loving human. We can describe spiritual concepts and the journey that made the change possible, but it is impossible to put our finger on it all exactly.
Spiritual growth is a journey that is a never ending, an imperfect process in this life. But just as we can see the effects of the wind, while being blind to its source; we can most definitely see the difference in people that incorporate spiritual values within their lives when compared to people that live a life devoid of any spiritual values.Their are many fields of spiritual studies. We can separate the studies into two main fields; the corporeal and the meta-corporeal. Some of these studies deal with energy fields, meditative states of consciousness, out of body and near death accounts, psychic research, etc.
“No man is so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master.” Ben Jonson
No one said we have to ‘investigate it all,’ but we do have to give it some thought if we wish to be at peace. A Hindu sage once told me “Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires.” As such without effort the defiance based atheists sinks deeper and deeper into sickness and tragedy as time goes by.
When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will reap self destruction of inner peace. I suggest any atheists wishing to find inner peace within their life adopt the creed of the atheists (their version of prepackaged morals) and become secular humanists as a good first start. The business of humanism is ‘all our business’ if we with to live life at peace.
The ‘informal creed’ of atheism.
An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.
An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church.
An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said.
An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother’s keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.â€
“The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles”
• We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
• We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
• We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
• We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
• We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
• We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
• We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
• We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
• We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.
• We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
• We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
• We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
• We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
• We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
• We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
• We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
• We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
• We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
• We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
• We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
• We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.
Council for Secular Humanism
So again I tell you there is a great need in the atheist community for a true fellowship or church of sorts to support moral, ethical and right living and to guide them to practice what they preach…truth and humanity.
