axiom- war is immoral

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

An axiom is as established principle, scientific law.

It appears the majority of people reject morals as a matter of scientific law. However, I insist a moral is a matter of cause and effect and is universal law. The word moral comes from the Latin word “mores” meaning- customs that are considered conducive to the welfare of society and so, through general observance, develop the force of law, often becoming part of the formal legal code.

It is challenging to bridge the consciousness of the past with the present, however, this must be done, because our understanding of democracy is vital to doing so. Democracy is an imitation of the Gods. We are as the Gods, because we can learn what is conducive to the welfare of society, and we can determine laws, equal to mathematical laws. This what makes self government possible.

Some want to argue war is not immoral. What is the truth of war? First off wars kill people. War kills innocent people who are not threat to the people who kill them, and who have done no wrong to those who kill them. Wars cripple and people, and destroy their businesses, and homes, leaving them in physical and economic ruin. Wars cause much grief and human suffering. Wars cause fear and fear becomes anger, and these negative feelings can last for several generations. Wars can divid humanity and was divided they may never be reunited. The Northern states and Southern states of the US are tentitively united, but the divid between them may never end. The divid between Muslims and Christians is as old as the crusades, or some might say, as old as Alexander the Great who is not seen as a Great man in the countries he plundered.
Are the sentments true?

If true, is the axiom that war is immoral, true? From a universal point of view, a God’s point of view, including all of humanity, is war immoral?

2

I agree with the beginning of your post. Morality is like everything else governed by cause and effect. However this is when we break off. You see morality is not just what the first word said about it, its developed into something more over the years, your point makes alot of sense pertaining to that one aspect of morals meaning but as I said its not that simple, morality is now seen as something different. Everyone has personal ideas of what is and what is not moral.

My understanding is that with things regarding the human mind and oppinion, perhaps there is more truth to it than meets the eye, but due to our limmeted understanding of this aspect of the universe, (Just look at the inacuracy of psychology) its not something we should attempt to draw absolutes on just yet.
You should not eat your chicken undercooked

3

I don’t believe war is immoral. Conflict is very much a part of life. But just because it isn’t immoral doesn’t mean we have to like it. That said, I have to voice my agreement with Rhinoboy here:

Except the chicken will probably never be ready to eat.

4

On the contrary, Men have forever and a day given gifts to the God(s) of war.

Pacifism is NOT a virtue.

A martial arts master will tell you he lives by the fist. A street thug will tell you he lives by the fist.

What does God say? He says “I command my hand.”
What does man say? He says “My hand commands me.”

This moral concept carries no individual subjectivity. It simply is.

5

Huh? can you please explain again who war is anything but immoral.

I googled warrior code and got this from Wikipedia:

While warriors may be very virtuous people, and may be very ethical people, how does this make war moral? How can the destruction of people’s lives and the human suffering of war be without bad conseqences? Perhaps if every single human in the group, subject to the attack, were killed, there would be no harmful consequences?

6

Lying and stealing are very much a part of life. I believe lying and stealing have harmful effects, therefore, lying and stealing would be immoral. Are you denying immoral acts have harmful effects, and that is why they are immoral? Are you saying there is no order of cause and effect? Do you mean war is not harmful, or that it just doesn’t matter how harmful war is? I am not grasping the logic of your argument.

7

War is moral when it is just and courageous. The allies against Hitler would be one of many examples.

In my example above the hand must be the effect of virtue not it’s cause. This is the great debate about W, of which passion has spurred many people into false beliefs such as ‘war is immoral’.

8

Of course the chicken isn’t cooked yet. Gibran wrote, we speak when we are not at peace with our thoughts. This discussion is the process of cooking of the chicken, not the prepared meal.

I don’t think abstract thinking is about absolutes. I think those who believe they can know absolute truth, are absolutely dangerous. My thoughts are now drawn to the question of if Godel is a Platonist. What are the laws? I am saying there are moral laws and that we can know them. I have said the effect of war is harmful. I am speaking of a law, that acts of war cause harm. True or false? Are there any conditions in which war is not harmful? This is about law, not justifications.

9

Huh? Those we call terrorist today, most certainly think they are just and they are courageous in the eyes of those who agree with them. Does this make their action moral?

Moral law does not depend on one’s point of view. Moral law is a matter of cause and effect.

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A moral war would be a war that was started in order to free people from oppression and its like.

Murder and war are not the same.

Is killing in self defense immoral? If you think so please don’t stand near me. I will always be immoral compared to you. In fact if a killer was eying both of us I might just point you out and say to the killer" Here get some practice in, then you can try me. I fight, she won’t."

We kill for many reasons. Killing is not immoral it is the intent behind the action that is moral or immoral.

I assure you my family is not immoral. We are a proud, kind caring and giving, military family. No soldier wants to kill unless they are inhuman beasts. You kill so that many more will live. A soldier would rather not fight, not kill, not be removed from their loved ones, They would rather end a war fast neat and quick. Its the politicans that cause the horrendous amounts of death in wars, not the soldier. A soldier will not lay back though and allow their loved ones to be put at risk. Family country and honor.

Tell you what, go tell the folks that are suicide bombing that they are being immoral. Convince them. Soldiers would be grateful.

11

What about defensive wars? What about moral relativism?

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I think it is safe to say the morality ‘war is bad’ is the result of the pain caused by war. Should not then be the rule ‘inflicting pain is bad?’

I personally think that if he had half a brain, God would have accepted the pain, and the wars, he caused when he gave humanity free will. He could not have been expecting them to act with perfect knowledge if he purposely gave them a partial perspective of the universe. How could a being so sublime create a race so imperfect and then judge it?

Taking another perspective, wars unite as often as they divide. Look at WWII; since then, France, Germany and England haven’t shed a drop of blood amongst each other - before, there hardly ever was a decade of peace between them. I do get the idea that God isn’t afraid of sacrifice.

Personally I don’t like war. But I wouldn’t go so far as to attribute my dislike of it, which is basically a fear of losing limbs and loved ones, to the allmighty. I think it is a human freedom to create a world without war, not a divine commandment.

13

Time for me to take a break.

What makes something moral or immoral is not anyone’s personal view, it is the law of cause and effect.

What is the effect of attacking another country?

What is the effect of defending?

I think people in the US have attacking confused with defending. We can determine the difference between an attack and defense, by determining where the damage is being done. When the damage is occuring in one’s own country, that is defense. When the damage is occuring outside of the boarders of one’s own country, that is attacking.

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Does this include damage to the economy?

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What do you mean? Are you saying you think the military defense of our economic interest around the world is okay?

If moral is a law of cause and effect. It doesn’t matter who starts the war or why. Damage is done. The moral is, you do this, the effect will be that. Our personal opinions do not change the fact.

16

Immoral to who?
Bob defines war as immoral:
Yes, war is immoral to Bob.

Jim defines war as sometimes moral and sometimes moral.
No, war is not necessarily immoral to Jim.

What’s to ponder here?

-Mach

17

Damage must be done in order to save and create a better world. Not always but in many cases this is true. From death there is life. Pain creates good and bad. Morality is a choice. 5000 people dying in a war can be good for a country, 1,000,000 dying in a war can be good for the world. Death is enevitable.

If I die tomorrow, I may be missed but, for a day or two, noone but, those that loved me the most will really care. I will become nothing to the rest that knew me. Today half a million people at least, will die from causes other than war. Today because of war maybe maybe hundred or two hundred people will die if that.

The morality of war is overshadowed by other causes. As fast as people die, people are born. When you decline the birth rate exponentially, then humans will put a greater value on human life. Right now we are not worth a dime per dozen except to those that know us.

18

I would argue that war is not necessarily immoral.

There is a theory called the “just war” doctrine, and it contains precepts that nations should follow in order to conduct morally good wars. The obligation of a nation to protect itself stems, I think, from the obligation that individuals have to protect their own lives.

Moving on to the just war doctrine, let’s consider its precepts. First, only a nation or a state can declare war on another. A private person may not do so, as he does not have the authority to do so. A nation may declare war in order to protect its citizens, or to protect those of another country who are under attack by some other nation (or entity). Second, the cause of the war must be just. Some examples given for a just war are to avenge wrongs and to punish a state “for refusing to make amends for the wrongs inflicted by its subjects, or to restore what it has seized unjustly” (Summa theologiae, II-II, q. 40, art. 1). Third, the intention of the war must be good, “with the object of securing peace, of punishing evil-doers, and of uplifting the good” (Ibid.).

It seems as if some precepts have been added to the just war doctrine, such as a nation must first try to secure peace through means other than war and being left with no other option, “there must be serious prospects of success; [and] the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated” (Catechism, par. n. 2309). These precepts have been added, I think, because of the destructive capability of modern warfare.

During war, the killing of innocent people is, in my opinion, murder, and not justifiable.

I agree with Kriswest in that people have the right to self-defense.

The morality of human acts is based on their agreement with right reason, and whether or not they are ordered towards our ultimate end, God Himself, Who is the Supreme Good.

19

war is the attack upon the self , and the self being defined as Humanity or the inner self.

so why?

because war is a survival state of a primative mind.

we have as of yet , as a being , to mature. religion for example stunts our growth. because it divides us rather than brings us together as a living being.

20

A moral is a code of behaviour. Absolute morals are, as yet, not known to man. There are still thousands of tribes and millions of moral codes. And as for the Allmighty: ‘All is fair in love and War’ seems close enough to His heart to pass for divine morality. But I try to leave God to His unfathomable behaviour. I find it hard enough to define my own morality.