back to the beginning: the limitations of language

Do Languages Exist?
And how does language work anyway? Antony Tomlinson weighs the arguments.

Ultimately, the mystery embedded in human language will always go back to 1] the extent to which we possess some measure of autonomy in grappling with it and 2] if we do possess a measure of free will, an understaning of the “human condition” going back to an understanding of Existence itself.

And, of course, the extent to which the language that the evolution of biological life on Earth has bestowed upon the human species is grappled with further given the distinction that I make between the either/or and the is/ought worlds.

All of the “technical” narratives here must sooner or later come around to that. In other words, in however human language is understood re Chomsky and others, why are there always considerably more limitations imposed on human communication when Chomsky shifts the discussion to capitalism or imperialism?

Now a new point of view: Donald Davidson

Malapropisms anyone?

“malapropism: the mistaken use of a word in place of a similar-sounding one, often with unintentionally amusing effect, as in, for example, “dance a flamingo ” (instead of flamenco ).”

Okay, Jane says “I’m getting an abortion”. Jim says, “if you do you’ll burn in Hell.”

What then of malapropisms and the use of conventions and contextual clues and idiolects in regard to pinning down the most precise communication?

After all, we do use the same language to discuss the weather as we do the morality of abortion. Here in America it is generally English. Yet with the morality of abortion the communication breakdowns are considerably more frequent…and consequential.

The Private Language Argument
Richard Floyd explains a notorious example of Wittgenstein’s public thought.

We have this argument off and on here too. Someone will post a point or an opinion about something on one or another thread and then another who touts him or herself as considerably more skilled in grappling with philosophy as a disciplined set of skills, will insist that the point or the opinion is not actually a true argument.

This thing:

“In logic and philosophy, an argument is a series of statements (in a natural language), called the premises intended to determine the degree of truth of another statement, the conclusion”

Technically as it were.

Whereas I am far more interested on focusing in on whether the point or the opinion or the actual argument is able to be demonstrated as true objectively for all rational people. Even if technically it is not a true argument.

We say something about ourselves out in the world with others. Others either agree with what we say or they disagree. Okay, given a particular context with conflicting points of view, are we or are we not able to establish the optimal or the only rational point, opinion and/or argument that there is?

That is basically my point in regard to the use of language to communicate our viewpoints regarding “morality here and now/immortality there and then”. My main interest in philosophy: “how ought one to live?”

Exactly? Jane makes a few points about something she believes is true about the rights of animals. Is it more important to explore the extent to which her assessment is a reasonable or a virtuous frame of mind, or to establish whether it is expressed as a true argument. How many discussions about animal rights are technically sufficient enough to be qualified as genuine philosophy? Does that matter when the discussions revolve mainly around conflicting goods?

Maybe? Depends on the context? Though my point is that in regard to discussions revolving around conflicting goods such as animal rights, neither “private language” nor technically correct philosophical arguments are going to be sufficient enough to establish a definitive conclusion about the rights of animals.

On the other hand, I am no more able to establish this. Yes, there may well be be a more or less sufficiently rigorous argument that does establish the natural/political rights of animals “out there” in the world somewhere. But all I can note is that I am not myself “here and now” privy to it.

The Private Language Argument
Richard Floyd explains a notorious example of Wittgenstein’s public thought.

On the other hand, what would be the point of it? That would depend on the individual or individuals involved. They would do this because, well, for whatever reason they found it useful or necessary or beneficial. But: it would only become controversial if, in pursuing this, it began to have an adverse impact on others who were not privy to their own private meaning of words.

The same thing with all the rest of us who come to act out [through our behaviors] our own “private language”. In the sense that how we come to understand the meaning of words existentially is derived from our own individual experiences. But it only becomes a problem in contexts in which one’s own private meaning is not in sync with others in situations in which we have to concur on the meaning in order to avoid conflict.

This may be different from Wittgenstein’s own understanding of it, but my point is still basically, “so what”?

Private, individual understandings of any particular language only generate, say, ominous news headlines when they come to revolve by and large around moral and political and religious exchanges that fail to overlap.

Only in regard to this a private language is understood by me to be more in sync with dasein and conflicting goods.

Iambiguous says:

“Only in regard to this a private language is understood by me to be more in sync with dasein and conflicting goods.”

That is a prerogitive that appears as intentionally variable, as does the bedfellows: determinancy and absolute freedom: im afraid to this antimony we are condemned

This may well be the most unintelligible thing that you have ever posted!

Unless of course I’m wrong.

I know. Let’s discuss what you think you mean by it given, oh, I don’t know, a particular context? :sunglasses:

Ok. Particular context.
First of all, what is particular about any context which can differentiate it from another?
In today’s thought, that is based on phenomenally. distinguished similarity, and what are the features of any context which set it apart from another, OR, conversely, can form durable objective syntax which hold meaning other then cliches and the kind?

And if the two kinds are balanced in an either/or propositional value judgement , how does this judgement fare to extend it’s syntax and value?

Is the sound of the word “water” coming from my mouth the same as the liquid flowing in a river, no, so there are limitations.

More and more, I’m becoming convinced language and mental talk is only to serve the concept of the other, that others exist. Whether they do exist is another debate, but language is the start of that illusion.

If I was the only person to ever exist, I wonder if language would ever develop.

Language is a set of names.
Experience is everything.
Names come later and can only exist through experience.

Perhaps most of the limitations of language come from the obvious poor usage of language . . .

What is experience without some sort of mental representation of what has happened? The entirety of language is in fact not just a set of names. It is also true to say that any mental representation is formed after any event has taken place - experience is a mental representation - catch my drift?

The Private Language Argument
Richard Floyd explains a notorious example of Wittgenstein’s public thought.

First, of course, we have to agree on the meaning of “sensations”:

“Sensations are often ascribed particular properties: of being conscious and inner, of being more immediate than perception, and of being atomic. In epistemology sensations have been taken as infallible foundations of knowledge, in psychology as elementary constituents of perceptual experience.” Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Got that?

Then, assuming that we can all agree on the appropriate definition, there’s the part where we connect that to any particular sensation that we experience in regard to a particular word that we either hear or use given a particular set of circumstances.

That part of course is nowhere to be seen in this article. Let alone how a distinction might be made between the language that we share begetting sensations that can be communicated back and forth intelligibly and a “private language” begetting private sensations that cannot.

On the other hand, I may well be misunderstanding the point he is making here. Still, aside from the purely personal reasons that someone might feel motivates them to create and then to sustain a “private language”, this choice either will or will not spill over into their interactions with others. And that either will or will not cause conflicts.

And it is focusing in on social, political and economic conflicts in the is/ought world that is the main interest of me. What then of a “private language”?

The Private Language Argument
Richard Floyd explains a notorious example of Wittgenstein’s public thought.

Yep. That’s basically my own reaction to a private definition and a private meaning for words used in a private language. Sure, if, for whatever personal reason, you choose to do this, either keep it to yourself or attempt to communicate it to others who accept your own subjective codes.

Only if and when this communication has practical implications for those not able to decode the exchange would it become more problematic.

My point instead is that in regard to communication that revolves around conflicting goods, a kind of “private language” can lead to all manner of dire consequences. Your definition and your meaning of freedom and justice revolve around women being able to abort their unborn babies/clumps of cells, while for others they revolve around the unborn being brought into this world.

This behaviorism?

“…the theory that human and animal behavior can be explained in terms of conditioning, without appeal to thoughts or feelings, and that psychological disorders are best treated by altering behavior patterns…”

Of course here language would seem to revolve around an amoral approach to human interactions. Being in a position of power to mold and manipulate – condition – human behaviors to serve your own wants and needs. Or the wants and the needs of “society”. In that sense what you defend or attack can be seen as largely beside the point.

And language becomes “private” more in terms of “one of us” vs. “one of them”.

Question of the Month
How Does Language Work?
The following answers to the question of linguistic meaning each win a random book.

Clearly then the starting point in regard to any discussions of human language are the biological imperatives necessary to create the sounds we call words. It’s like trying to imagine the “human condition” had there not been the mutations that led to opposable thumbs. Some things are [on a fundamental level] our genes all the way down. At least to begin with.

So, sans any particular birth defects, we all come into the world with the capacity to make those sounds that become words that are able to communicate the sort of information and knowledge that accounts for the existence of human history.

What’s left then, after accepting this, is focusing in on all the reasons why, if this is the case, there are in the historical record so many instances of our “failure to communicate”. Precipitating any number of conflicts up to and including world wars.

Again, if you keep all of this philosophical “analysis” anchored to the either/or world – cats and lions – you can manage to communicate with a minimal amount of dysfunction. After all, these points will certainly seem reasonable to most of us. But if the discussion shifts to contexts that members of, say, Peta are more inclined to pursue – how ought human beings treat other animals? – you can whisper or shout your points all day long and the communication can continue to break down.

Why?

That’s my own interest in language here.

Question of the Month
How Does Language Work?
The following answers to the question of linguistic meaning each win a random book.

Ivan Trengrove, Victor Harbor, South Australia

Talking however is only really useful to a species that has many different things to talk about. A species that thinks on a level far, far beyond fish and birds. Or even chimpanzees. While most species of animals are able to communicate with sounds, they don’t invent philosophies to to talk about on the internet.

No doubt about it. Biological imperatives are the starting blocks. We only communicate as we do here because whatever is behind the biological evolution of life itself, has culminated in the human species here on planet Earth. But, again, biology is behind all species of animals. With our own however the communication becomes considerably more…problematic?

For example:

But a few indeed. And that’s because it’s not only the technical aspect of language communication that explodes in complexity among our own species…but the actual subjects that we can talk about as well. The part where social, political and economic memes come into play. Anthropology, ethnography, sociology, psychology, political science, philosophy, ethics and on and on.

In other words, the part where communication begins to break down and distinctions can be made between objective truths and subjective opinions.

Question of the Month
How Does Language Work?
The following answers to the question of linguistic meaning each win a random book.
Philosophy Now Magazine

Madeleine Maggs, Basingstoke, Hampshire

Or we could take the word “freedom”. Or “justice”.

My point of course is that we can discuss them as we do “fork”. But a fork is an actual thing. Something invented for a specific purpose. Whereas “freedom” and “justice” are less objective things than attempts to encompass our subjective reaction to particular sets of circumstances which trigger behaviors which trigger consequences that some will embrace and others will not. Some will insist that their freedom to own guns outweighs the wishes of those who wish to be free to live in a community where guns are not allowed to be owned.

What constitutes justice here?

There is a big difference between saying that legally the Indianapolis gunman was free to purchase a gun and that morally he ought to have been free to purchase a gun.

And then in differentiating those parts that we all share in common such that particular words have the same meaning “for all practical purposes” and the parts that are rooted more in the arguments that I make about the subjective/subjunctive “I”.

Thus the part where “my language” is able to be or not to be effectively intertwined in “your language” given a situation that we both share.

I just go considerably further out on the limb when I speak of my own moral and political value judgments as being “fractured and fragmented”.

Question of the Month
How Does Language Work?
The following answers to the question of linguistic meaning each win a random book.
Philosophy Now Magazine

J.I. Hans Bakker, semioticsigns.com, Canada

It seems rather simple for some. Two or more people are trying to communicate something, anything…given their interactions out in this or that world. Interactions that in particular revolve around the “for all practical purposes” necessity to subsist.

So, language works if they are successful in communicating their wants and needs. Language does not work if they are not successful. Then back to the distinction that I make in regard to communication in the is/ought world.

Thus, philosophically…

These intellectual contraptions can become nothing short of, well, unintelligible. All of the technical aspects derived from logic and epistemology that allow us to explore human communication in ways that may or may not be relevant to actual human interactions. And I don’t pretend to be able to make the proper distinction. All I can do is to ask those who think that they can to bring their conclusions to the arguments I make in my signature threads in regard to “morality here and now”.

Question of the Month
How Does Language Work?
The following answers to the question of linguistic meaning each win a random book.
Philosophy Now Magazine

Colin Brookes, Woodhouse Eaves, Leicestershire

I would merely come back to the distinction here between the language that we use in our existential, intersubjective interactions that involve conflicting moral and political value judgments, and the language that we use that seems to convey essential, objective truths in the either/or world.

Unfortunately, this distinction does not appear to be the primary concern here. Instead, it seems to treat language as though, technically, philosophers – postmodern or otherwise – first need to grasp it within the confines of logic and epistemology. And I certainly don’t dispute the importance of this. I merely ask those who come to particular conclusions here to take those conclusions out into the world that we live in from day to day and note how those conclusions are applicable to the distinction that I make.

How about this: In using the word “contrary” and “mitigation” you include a context in which it becomes far, far clearer why those words were used. John believes sport hunting is a good thing. On the contrary, says Jim, it is a bad thing. Then an in depth discussion regarding their reasons why.

John has been convicted of a crime. At the penalty phase witnesses are called to present mitigating circumstances to lessen his sentence. But others are called to present aggravating circumstances in order to lengthen it instead. How hard here is it to distinguish signifiers, signifieds and referents?

You tell me what the philosophical significance of this is given a particular contested context. Either the meaning and word are communicated together effectively or they are not.

Or, sure, I’m missing the point altogether such that unless I grasp the technical meaning here, I may well completely misconstrue important aspects of human interaction.

Question of the Month
How Does Language Work?
The following answers to the question of linguistic meaning each win a random book.
Philosophy Now Magazine

Frank S. Robinson, Albany, NY

In fact, the difference may well be so vast there really is no answer that any language on Earth will ever be able to encompass. And even then only presuming that both the question and the answer are not embedded ineffably in a wholly determined universe.

Well, without language every communication would seem to revolve around “show me”. If you wished to convey to a neighbor that a storm had blown down a tree in your backyard and you didn’t want to have to take him down the block to your yard to show him, we would need to invent something like hand gestures or finger movements or facial expressions that would then become the abstract shortcuts that words convey for us now.

Unless of course human brains [and the language we use here to discuss them] are just nature’s own equivalent of ones and zeros. But what always interest me about this “self” [and whatever language any particular one of them chooses to use] is the part where unlike computers that, correctly programmed, are in sync with what is objectively true in the either/or world, there does not appear to be a way to program our own brains so as to be correct in regard to the words used in arguments revolving around, say, this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

Especially once the language used is not part of a thought experiment but involves an actual situation in which the lives of flesh and blood human beings are at stake. Or think Kant and that knock on the door. Tell the truth or not?

very simply, objective criteria follow a calculus of spatial varience that concurrently changes the supposed lowest platformal foundation.

The language changes very imperceptively, as the idea of reception and projection allow, namely on the persistent dialectical ground.

The resulting image template like a lens, adjusts for a reasonable circle of light through the expanding and contracting pupil., that translates automatic mechanical varience to axiomatically adjusted meaning.

That does not differentiate between the functional and the thougought experiment as testing it’self.

Every linguistic usage then, is based on very delicate micro experiments. They contain calculated functional, yet imperceptible tests for missing elemental foundations.

That is why calculation always rests on continuous retests between various minima-maximal; and seemingly static , primitive, overgeneralized concepts with the degrees relating to the mist complex variences.

Exactly!!! :laughing: