This is more of a reasoning to understand certain things. Many times I debate on here with the so called atheists, some anti-theists, and even some agnostics. But a few of these I argue with have bad attitudes and many false assumptions, therefore false criticisms. So I have to stop and ask the question, why get upset? Sure I get upset sometimes, I feel I’m trying to argue for a good purpose, a purpose I believe can save people from themselves, and when they don’t listen, it upsets me greatly, when they don’t understand, it upsets me. And when they do this with harsh criticism, it angers me, I feel like how can you be so stupid, you should be ‘wanting’ to know about my beliefs because you should want an eternity in heaven, and if you don’t then going to heaven for you will be hell itself. But back to my main point. Why do “you” get angry? What for? I have hurt your integrity? Pride? Am I a threat to this world? I mean, there’s no reason why you should want to persuade me to your beliefs is there? So then why make a fuss of it?
It’s a simple question. I truly want to know what motivates such a thing. So be honest, tell me what drives you, all of you. Honestly, I’m interested.
I don’t get angry with you, or anyone religious on ILP. I do get angry with some religious people, however, and I have asked myself why this is. There are several reasons, not all of them admirable. Typically, it is the people who have influence over impressionable children. I rarely doubt the intention of these people is good, but I genuinely consider it a “sin” to teach such children that any religious belief is “true” or “definite” in any sense.
I would like examples, for one. Secondly, you have still not responded to my “The Meaning of Life” thread. If your alternative to getting angry is just to disappear, you’re no better than anyone.
I don’t get angry talking with you, Club29, because I think you are pretty open-minded and polite. You have just been misinformed about science – I am thinking about Behe and evolution. When you started to understand more and see clear evidence you started to change your opinion.
The following post, however, did annoy me (as far as one can get annoyed on an internet forum, which isn’t much):
At first glance this seems to me just frankly incoherent. Perhaps it is. I think, though, that you understand what he’s getting at – and so do I. He is talking about faith, about the warm comfort he feels knowing he has all the answers and that he can look forward to eternal bliss. All we need is “the primer”! Then the whole universe and everything in it will be one huge piece of evidence for the existence of God.
Unfortunately, the primer is belief in God. Once you believe, or really understand what it is like to feel you have all the answers to the universe, then it all makes sense to you: you see evidence in everything and anything. How can something that FEELS so right, so good, be wrong? It is intoxicating. All of this is not, though, the “objective evidence and logic as to what God is really like” he mentioned in an earlier post.
So why am I annoyed by this stuff? Maybe because I care about what’s true. I care that people base their lives around a lie and that it can have terrible consequences. The same will be said of me, of course, so what’s the point? Well, it’s fun to argue.
Well… none of you have… I dont’ guess this is going as well as planned, but thanks for the answers.
Yes sorry Zeus, you and someone else I was supposed to reply to and I haven’t gotten around to it yet, sometimes I forget, and sometimes I just don’t have anything to say. But I’ll look into your post.
Obw, like I said I don’t remember you gettin angry. The ones who have, have not posted yet, and I won’t mention names. It bothers me some, but I want to know what drives that anger. I do believe irritation can bring about anger, I totally understand that, there are some of these closed-minded people on ILP. But as to your point, I don’t see it a sin to preach something you hold true to kids. If you believe in absolutes, teach em! But defend them, defend that belief. Is it only personal preference perhaps you feel it’s wrong to teach kids religion at a young age? What about that no God exists? What would be the difference? I personally don’t care either way, soon the kid will grow up and want answers for himself, unless they are afraid of looking for them, which doesnt make any sense. I’ve always believed Christianity is true, sure I’ve had my doubts, I have them often, but I still believe. I’ve even tried abadoning my regular bible studies and ministry sessions just because I felt that what I felt as God was just brainwashing! And I’m still not at a conclusion for that one. I will probably always believe its fine and dandy to teach kids anything you want, especially when I have some little ones of my own in some years from now. But I will give them a defense when they ask, and as probably opposed to many who just let their kids believe whatever they want, I will constantly question, that’s just my nature.
Yeah I see your point turtles. lol, I don’t have much more to add to that, but I do understand what you mean.
The problem with teaching religion to kids is that they cannot think for themselves. Case in point, they believe in santa/easter bunny ect, until someone older than them finally tells them it is not real. Hence, whatever fantastic story you tell them, they are going to believe.
So ultimately we get kids growing up thinking that if they don’t believe in god they are going to suffer eternal damnation. Teaching kids the Christian conception of god, is teaching them that they HAVE to beleive it. Hence we get kids who have clung to the idea that they have to believe in god there entire adolescence, and so when they are finally able to think for themselves, they are either afraid to or have convinced themselves so thoroughly of God’s truth, that they are incapable of seriously questioning it.
Someone should do an experiment of the percentage of people who believe in god, when they are raised to believe it is true versus when they are told it is one option that some people choose to believe.
What’s wrong with telling kids Santa and the Easter bunny exist? Isn’t this a great joy of imagination? This isn’t a hurtful thing, or at least I haven’t seen it cause many problems.
Yes I understand your point. Putting it in perspective is difficult because such a thing seems very deluted. What I am saying is this, it’s ok to teach a kid that Christ died for them and that salvation is the key to heaven. And most Christians today will tell you that hell is a place of torment, not torture, it’s internal. The gate to hell is locked from the inside as many have put it. But I think what you are hitting on more than anything is more of the psychological damage teaching kids things will cause. I’d be interested to know when there’s a fear underlying a childs belief, what the effects are. However, in oppostion of you discussing a certain type of religious foisting I guess you could say, there comes a point when you should also ask, is not foisting a good thing? Perhaps if Christianity is true, your kid doesn’t believe it because you don’t hold a strong belief in it, either way, and if Christianity is true, you are responsible for such a thing. So I stick to my point, teach kids based on your own honest reasoning, make sure that’s good reasoning, and then let them grow up to decide for themselves. I’m not talking about forcing, I’m talking about telling. I got saved at a young age, or at least I thought I got saved, I really didn’t know what it was all about, but I knew I wanted to go to heaven with my family when I died. I made the choice, there was no forcing from my parents. And what you may see is a crime, to scare a kid into believing, is only wrong when the scare isn’t real, and we have yet to come to a conclusion about that as a whole.
I agree completely, with the caveat that the same applies to other non-relgious beliefs too. The best a parent can do is teach their child about the rich diversity of beliefs that we already know about and encourage them to not feel like they necessarily have to believe any of them. And give them chocolate occasionally.
Yes, it is as harmful to say “some people believe THIS, which is DEFINITELY not true”.
Club- I have a problem with teaching kids that Jesus died for their sins and suchandsuch is the key to heaven, not because I think it is not true (because I do not think it is true) but because teaching that belief will make that child think heaven definitely exists.
This is cruel for many reasons, and as you say, most children will eventually make their own mind up - but are you really helping them to mature by telling them heaven exists rather than telling them that some people believe heaven exists and one day they will have to decide for themselves if it does or not?
I think not - a child told that heaven does not exist, or that it does, is being psychologically mistreated. What parent would want to delay their child’s mental maturity? I believe heaven does not exist, but I will not tell my child “heaven does not exist, son”. I will wait until the day he comes to his own decision and if I feel he is wrong AND old enough to handle an intellectual debate, I will go about trying to convince him otherwise. But not until that day. Up to that point, I will teach him things I can verify- the fact that millions of people believe in heaven, and the fact that millions of people believe in reincarnation, and the fact that millions of people believe in Vishnu, etc etc etc and help him to learn more about these people.
Belief as an action is not what I think you had in mind when you said “action”. The point is not, that religious people teach their kids that outward actions will cause punishment, but teaching that not believing a certain thing will incure punishment. Or on a more ridiculous note, that not believing a certain thing means your a bad person and deserve punishment.