Beating your child!!!

[Magius]

Matthew E,
wow I don’t know how I ever failed to respond to this thread. Must of been when threads were being moved around and forums renamed. Nevertheless, I am back.

You stated:

However, if they are going down an unhealthy path at an early age, I think it is a tool that should not be ruled out.

What appears to be an unhealthy path make not be so, but if it is, the fact that they are already on an unhealthy path doesn’t justify taking an unhealthy path yourself onto the child, namely beating them.

You stated:

Good point, however, don’t you agree that there are times when even though every opportunity has not been exhausted, the strictest form of consequences must be used because of the results of using them too late? Of course it is impossible to exhaust every possibility, however, by attempting to use all of the alternatives to spanking, when you finally get around to spanking the child (if all the other techniques failed) spanking probably won’t work, as it would be too late. It’s kind of like threatening to spank a sixteen year old that has started using drugs, that has never been spanked before- too little too late.

I’m not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that spanking is okay even when all alternatives haven’t been used it may be too late to use spanking later so lets spank now? It’s too late for spanking no matter when it is used strictly for the reason that it is used to teach which fails. It’s just like a fight, a fight really comes down to the fact that two people fail the ability to communicate each others views and so they are forcing them upon each other. In the same way a parent fails to communicate their view to the child and so they resort to forcing it upon them.

You stated:

But a parent can force their child to. It is at times like these when spanking is necessary.

I disagree. Parents shouldn’t force their children.

You stated:

If a child is beginnning to disregard the words of his parents, action needs to be swiftly taken so that they do not grow beyond their parent’s control.

A parent should first ask themselves why their words are being disregarded.

You stated:

Once a child does not listen to his parents, there are big problems.

Sure, but that doesn’t mean you beat them.

You stated:

Let us suppose that it can be empirically proven that spanking is wrong, or rather, that there are alternative methods that are as successful or more successful than spanking. Does this mean that I had an abusive childhood, and that my parents were evil?

No, it means that they did what they thought was best and what their patiance allowed at that time. You see, too often, parents and people in general justify their quick responses to violence through it being needed, as though they acted rationally and by choice instead of by instinct and anger. I think parents often don’t take the time to teach, educate, and explain things to their children. Instead, they become short with them, they have tempers, and often parents lose patiance with their child because they think other things are more important. Though, what they did, actually harmed you instead of helping you. I’m not saying it didn’t help you at all, but I am saying that once you beat your child you are doing more damage than the good you intend to a large degree.

You stated:

No. What this means, is that my parents did what they sincerely believed to be the best course of action possible. They spanked me not because they wanted to, but because they didn’t know of anything else to do that would turn me into the upstanding young man that I am today =). Their intent was as true as the intent of the parent that never laid a hand on their child. That is what matters.

I disagree. The intent of a parent who never beats their child in any way is much different than the parents who does beat their child. Especially since the parent who doesn’t beat their child must have a great understand of how to raise children in order not to lose their temper.

You stated:

I think children that are spanked by their parents all come to realize this.

I disagree. Children defend their abuses by thinking that way so that they can be okay with themselves, their life, and their parents.

What’s your take?

[Magius]

Kesh stated:

I dont see how a child that has been deprived of violence would be more creative.

I do. Through violence one is afraid and in constant fear, always thinking about every move they make and how it might lead to violence. That takes up most of the minds time and capacity. Without violence a child is left to think about joyous and creative things. In fact, I don’t ever recall having a creative moment in the context of violence, except maybe how to stop the violence or get the hell out of there.

You stated:

You seem to see war as a event done by other people, evil people;

Beating your child and war between countries, although related in some general contexts, are actually quite different. Yes, war can have good outcomes of some type, just as being beaten as a child may instill the proper value of looking both ways when crossing the street…but the amount of damage that being beaten has done to you will be much greater just as the negative impacts of wars highly outway and positive ones you see.

You stated:

war can be good, it gives a nation a sense of togetherness in the face of a “so called evil” and would of brought out the best in man as well as the horribleness of man.

This doesn’t tell me that war is good. When it come to ones life one would have a sense of togetherness with anyone who is side by side with them taking part in the fact that they are trying to survive. What it does tell me is that there was something seriously wrong with the nation in times of peace if there was no sense of togetherness then. If you are correct that the best in a man is brought out in war and if in war we get a sense of togetherness then why aren’t we always at war? Heck, why on earth did people ever come to think that war was bad? You’ve got it backwards, the best in a man and the best in a nation if there is a best in them should come out in times of peace and not war. That soldier who picked up a wounded soldier and dragged him for miles will in years pass by a homeless person and not give him a second thought.

You stated:

In times of disorder, violence and horror–have they also not been the times of greatest creativity, in art, science, political thinking etc: if you ride a society or a person from violence whats left? for me it would be a growing sense of restless, nothingness, lack of meaning or aim in anything. Some liberal life were the goal is to live out your life as unnoticeable as possible.

You may be right, as Briseis (in the movie Troy) states: “Peace confuses them”.

What’s your take?

[Magius]

Marshall,
I am appalled that you of all people said this…

Something like equal force against equal force! Very good argument. If the kid is getting ready to beat up somebody and nothing else works…

Do you not see the infinite regress? If I kill you, someone kills me, then someone else has to kill that someone who killed me, and so on. Same with hitting. If your child hits someone you need to make them understand…but not by hitting them. Evil begets evil. The parent looks like a hypocrit - “It’s wrong to hit people” the parent says while hitting their child. I am amazed human kind has gotten as far as it has.

What’s your take?

[Magius]

arendt and Pureasonist,
applause

well said

[Phaedrus]

So, Magius, is someone kidnaps a person and detains them in a cell in their basement, what punishment do you suggest? Won’t imprisoning someone for imprisoning someone be the same paradoxical situation?

If homosexuality is normal and natural because we see it the animal kingdom, is not at least possible that the same can be said for corporal punishment of offspring? After all, many animals have been observed to do just that, too.

[Impenitent]

“don’t you know they’re going to shock the monkey…” -P. Gabriel

-Imp

[Phaedrus]

I think Gabriel was going to “spank the monkey.”

[Matthew_E]

Magius wrote:

What appears to be an unhealthy path make not be so, but if it is, the fact that they are already on an unhealthy path doesn’t justify taking an unhealthy path yourself onto the child, namely beating them.

That’s where we differ. I think it does. If a person is going to murder me, and I have 10 minutes to stop them, I’ll use 9 of those minutes to try and persuade them. If I’m unsuccessful, that last minute is their last. Idealistic people are dead in the real word, because crazy people kill them while they’re being nice. You’re being very idealiztic Magius, and I appreciate it. I was the king of idealism when I was younger. But reality is, that if you cannot verbally make your child well behaved, then you must resort to punishments.

It’s just like a fight, a fight really comes down to the fact that two people fail the ability to communicate each others views and so they are forcing them upon each other. In the same way a parent fails to communicate their view to the child and so they resort to forcing it upon them.

Some things cannot be explained. Try explaining sarcasm to a 2 year old. Try explaining physics to a 5 year old. Now, what if the five year old continually beats up his 2 year old brother because you cannot explain physics to him? Do you just allow him to keep doing so until he’s in high school? I don’t think so. Does he need to be spanked? Hopefully not. But if timeouts and all the verbal trickery/persuasion that you can think of doesn’t work, maybe spanking is the key.

I disagree. Parents shouldn’t force their children.

So if a child wants to drink coolant, the parent should let them do as they please? Parent’s must force their children. It’s what being a parent is.

A parent should first ask themselves why their words are being disregarded.

I totally agree. But what if they’re being disregarded for discernable reason? What should they do? Be in stasis? Let the kid get away with murder while they try to figure it out?

Sure, but that doesn’t mean you beat them.

Right, but what do you do if nothing else works?

I disagree. The intent of a parent who never beats their child in any way is much different than the parents who does beat their child. Especially since the parent who doesn’t beat their child must have a great understand of how to raise children in order not to lose their temper.

My Dad never spanked me because he lost his temper. He was always very calm, and would ask if I knew why I was being spanked.

I disagree. Children defend their abuses by thinking that way so that they can be okay with themselves, their life, and their parents.

I disagree. I can be okay with my life and my parents if I had to acknowlede that what they did was wrong.

[Volkov]

@Matthew E.

That’s where we differ. I think it does. If a person is going to murder me, and I have 10 minutes to stop them, I’ll use 9 of those minutes to try and persuade them. If I’m unsuccessful, that last minute is their last. Idealistic people are dead in the real word, because crazy people kill them while they’re being nice. You’re being very idealiztic Magius, and I appreciate it. I was the king of idealism when I was younger. But reality is, that if you cannot verbally make your child well behaved, then you must resort to punishments.

There is a gross difference between a person trying to murder you and a misbehaving child.

Some things cannot be explained. Try explaining sarcasm to a 2 year old. Try explaining physics to a 5 year old. Now, what if the five year old continually beats up his 2 year old brother because you cannot explain physics to him? Do you just allow him to keep doing so until he’s in high school? I don’t think so. Does he need to be spanked? Hopefully not. But if timeouts and all the verbal trickery/persuasion that you can think of doesn’t work, maybe spanking is the key.

In case you people have not noticed, some nations (Sweden, Norway, Germany, Israel, Cyprus, Iceland, Denmark, Austria, Croatia) have made it illegal for parents to physically punish their kids. I have yet to read of their kids being completely unruly and such.

So if a child wants to drink coolant, the parent should let them do as they please? Parent’s must force their children. It’s what being a parent is.

Force in dire circumstances, and it need not be violent. Not to mention that coolant should always be kept out of a child’s reach.

I totally agree. But what if they’re being disregarded for discernable reason? What should they do? Be in stasis? Let the kid get away with murder while they try to figure it out?

Kid get away with murder? Murder would be handled by the cops, not the parents.

Right, but what do you do if nothing else works?

Then the parent is probably not a very good parent.

[jamieshows19]

Honestly, I dont see how one could hit a child or even another person for that matter. What will it prove? What will be gained from the act? Surely not knowledge. I dont see how someone would be able to learn at a higher level or come to a better understanding after or during a beating or spanking. I was Physically and Emotionally abused since before I can remember. All that it has accomplished was me becoming depressed and anti-social. I remember times and this stilll happens unconsciously whenever I speak to someone im not familiar with I lower my head. I dont know why it happens and spoke to a friend who is studying psychology and he also has done this(he was abused also) though I never asked him why it happens. It has affected my ability to become assertive and really hurt my confidence. I believe children should be taught with reason and open-mindedness just as adults should. A teacher would not hit a student if he did not understand the material that was presented.Why should a parent?

[Phaedrus]

I think there’s a wide gulf between a life of abuse and an occasional spanking when a child is bad. You may have profound disfunction from your abuse, as is expected, but the vast majority of those who received mild corporal punishment have no psychological impairment.

[jamieshows19]

Yes i agree there is a difference. But I fail to see how this will improve a child’s understanding and not instill fear in him/her.

[aspacia]

@Marshall McDaniel

— I know a single parent who failed to discipline her kids . They are now on home arrest with the electronic ankle bracelets. It’s amazing that a license is required to drive a car, run a business, etc., but anybody whether qualified or not is granted free rein to raise a child in any way S/he sees fit!
—(I don’t think it ethically advisable to physically punish your children)

Yes, when substituting in high school this often happened, even with two parents in the home. “He’ll run away if I enforce any discipline.” Hell, let the child see how hard it is to survive. You are right though, it is usually the single parent who is the enabler.

I raised my son alone for 11 years and developed a backbone of steel. That is, positive and negative sanctions were applied. I charged him points for doing his laundry, argueing, dinner, watching television, phone time, driving him to friends homes, karate, tennis. Once, he had to wear dirty, wrinkled clothes to school because he did not have enough points. He was so humiliated, he quickly reverted his behavior.

He earned points for grades, good report card comments, doing chores,

The results, Hell he makes more money than I do and is a polite 26 year-old, now moving to VA to persue a MBA. Yes, we talk at least twice a week and see each other three or four times a month, as he lives 40 minutes away on So. Cal’s mean streets. And yes, he had even said “I know I was often an asshole Mom, I’m sorry.”

Sometimes spanking is necessary, especially when a child does not “get with the program” by any other means. Screaming at a child can do more harm than a swat on the ass.

Raising children is the hardest, most expensive job I have ever done. Good luck to all parents, it is a tough gig, but the child did not ask to be born. It is up to the parent to raise a socially, economically responsible person.

[barniclebob]

Just wondering, how many people who replied this thread dealt with 6year old going on rampage just because. On many occasion.

[willem]

raises hand

have i posted before? ah well

[aspacia]

@barniclebob

Just wondering, how many people who replied this thread dealt with 6year old going on rampage just because. On many occasion.

My son went on a few rampages when he was 10. I went to the library and returned in an hour. Then we talked and I made an appointment with a counselor. Counselor’s can be objective and provide great advice regarding how to discipline a child without violence. It worked for me.

[barniclebob]

@aspacia

My son went on a few rampages when he was 10. I went to the library and returned in an hour. Then we talked and I made an appointment with a counselor. Counselor’s can be objective and provide great advice regarding how to discipline a child without violence. It worked for me.

LOL. I think you might hate me after this story. I used to baby sit alot, whenever there was family gathering. I happen to be there. I’m the oldest of the kids. And i work cheap.(free)

ages varied from infant to teen agers. One time my cousine got out of the line and would not listen. For hours he tormented his parents and his brother. So, I stepped in. I warned him that if he keep this up i’ll sit on him. He challenged me by breaking a rule in my face. So, I simply sat on him lightly. Just enough so that he could not move. For 5 minutes, he used everything he ever learned to manuplate people. He used the puppy eyes. Fake cry. Guilt trip. Pleading. Promises that he had no intention of keeping. I would not budge and he became really desperate and angry. He even cursed. I smakced his arse lightly and said ever say that word again and i’ll sit on you even longer. While I was sitting on him, his brother laughed his arse off. Since, he too was vicdomized by this little devil. He could not believe his eyes that someone actually sat on his brother for 5 minutes to teach him a lesson. When I got off him after 5 minutes, he was in foul mood but dare not show any signs of mean spiritedness. after about 1 hour even he laughed his arse off. I no doubt they will talk about this crazy nutty older cousine of theirs. But, I do believe that we do have to use force some times.

BTW, this does not equate to someone beating their kid. I don’t condone that. But, light spanking and deciplan is needed some times. Because, these kids learn fast. They know what they are getting by doing certain things. I believe that they do these things since they are not developed enough to know about the full consequences of their action. As we see it.

[aspacia]

Why should I hate you? Each child responds to various discipline styles in different way. Hey, if sitting on the little volcano worked, GO FOR IT!

[DietCoke]

There are always situations where the child will REFUSE to abide by a non-physical punishment. You can do all the counsilling you want. Give your kid a frontal lobotomy and he could always still refuse.

Physical punishment is unneeded 99.999% of the time. But there are situations where it is needed. For the same reason that diplomacy is not always an option in politics. The only people who can claim that its unnessicary are pacifists who think that violene is never needed, and whom i think are crazy.

[Uccisore]

It may be different with the newest crop of people coming of age, but ten years ago nearly everyone who participated in a debate like this, on either side, were themselves spanked as a child. No doubt nearly all our Presidents, CEOs, Doctors, Lawyers and college professors were spanked at some point. So at the very least, we have to acknowedge that spanking isn’t some deviency that’s destroying society. It seems that a discussion of it’s moral value would be 90% academic, not pragmatic. Statements that a childs upbringing is hopelessly damaged or that only crazy, uneducated people spank their kids are obvious exaggerations.