Aspacia, no one has the right to hit another individual. By law, and thats the way it should be. But even by law, the relationship between parent and child is defined differently. Under 18 are dependants. It could be said, that children are not full individuals, and this is as it should be as well, theres a reason the law does not allow younger people to make all the same decisions as older people, because younger people just dont know enough yet. Now, the law also says that hitting kids is illegal, in America. I believe this is as it should be as well, and I will tell you why. For the government to allow beating children, you could possibly have a bunch of assholes out there adopt kids or just have kids just so they could beat them, because they like hurting people, and heres an avenue for them to do just that, laid right out for them by the government. So this cannot be legal. So what is there to do? Well, my answer is my situation. Though I have to apply my own logic to this, that not every child is like me. In my situation, I never dared call child services. Not because I was afraid of getting in trouble from my dad, but because I didnt want to hurt my father, I didnt want to get him into trouble. And also I realized that I would have much more serious problems to contend with if my family fell apart, then just a little pain now and then. Basicly, it was the relationship I had with my father. When I was a little older, I jokingly asked my dad what he would do if I called child services. He said “go ahead, but if you do, you would greatly dissapoint me.”, and this was said with no implication of threat. I imagine he would be genuinly disapointed, like an artist that steps back to see the whole picture and realizes its not as good as he thought it would be. I just could not do it, its like calling the cops on your brother. I wouldn’t ever do that, no matter what he did. This is because my father managed to build a strong relationship with me, regardless of the violence. So, since beating should be illegal, I believe parents that want or need to resort to violence for discipline have to make sure there is a strong relationship in place. My father genuinly loved me, and I always knew it, and he made sure I knew it. And so, if a parent wishes to risk beating the children to further discipline, they must be aware of the possible consequences, and if they are able, should find a way to do it safely. I never ever got any form of injury from the beatings. Maybe a bruise here and there. But nothing more, and my dad intended this. He did not want to actually harm my body, just induce pain. So my dad managed to create a relationship in which he was justified in disciplining me physicly, but I still had a good relationship with him. And so I would never do anything purposefuly to inflict any harm or problems on him. When I disobeyed him, I never did it to hurt him. I didnt want him to find out. I never planned on breaking any rules with the intention of him finding out. I did it to further my own interests. I knew I coud possibly cause him problems by breaking his rules, but being so young, I was unable to calculate my actions effectivly enough in order not to harm him. I ofcourse thought that I knew what I was doing. I didnt. So, I could never do anything to harm my father purposefully, where the intent is to harm him, and that includes calling child services. And looking back at it now, I see exactly why my dad beat me, and what his beating created. And I see what kids who never got disciplined in such a manner have grown up to be. And I am gratefull that my dad beat me.
But like I said, I must apply my same logic that maybe such a relationship is not possible with some children. In that case, I wouldnt know what to do. So I guess the most important factor in diciplining children is to build a powerful relationship, a bond, and this ofcourse takes love and caring. I can only speak from my experience, but I got plenty of that from both my parents.
Ok, I started writing this thing, and then had to go to a movie in the middle of it, when I came back, I kept on writing, and didnt notice all the posts that came after aspacias. Im going to address them all, and I may make some points I made above again, I just doint want to erase the top part and start all over. Excuse my laziness 
Uccisore, to add to the point of the line in our minds of “going too far” What is it about fists that would cross anyones line. I am telling the absolute truth, getting slapped hurts SO much more then the punches my dad gave me. He slapped the hell outa me as well, even kicked me in the ass a bunch. But of all of these, slapping is by far the worst. It stings so much. Getting a punch in the gut hurts for a second, then its gone. The sting from a slap lasts. I understand why this is the norm. Because slapping is much less likely to cause serious harm, compared to fists. So I mention again that my dad only intended to induce pain, and never harm, and I guess he knew what he was doing because I never got harmed, neither did my brother, or the plethora of other family members and friends whose parents beat them.
GCT, if someone came up to my kids and hit them regardless of fists or slaps, I would jump right in. My brother hits me too, all the time. I would hit him back if I stood a chance, so I ussually try to wrestle with him, but he kicks my ass in that too. Why do I care less with my brother and father than if some random dude came up and hit me. Actually my friends and I hit each other all the time. So what pattern are you noticing here. The relationship in which the violence occurs. Same point as I made above.
“Think of this, any system based on strength and fear is not innate. By RussianTank’s own argument, he was taught to fear, raised to fear. By his own admission he fears speaking out, fears the police, authority symbols, he probably fears anything challenging… like a different aspect on violence alien to the one given to him as he grew up. Given enough time and the proper tools, (knives, bats, needles, matches, a car battery, jumper cables, and a pack of hungry rats) I could make Russiantank fear strict discipline itself. He would sing my praises and the praises of hug therapy. I could force him to love me through fear of violence, as opposed to earning his respect simply by treating him in a half ass decent manner.”
I fear only one thing… CONSEQUENCE! Thats the big lesson here, to learn to fear consequence. I dont think I need to tell you what happens to people that dont learn to fear consequence. The level of fear varies, and its impossible to say which level is the best. I dont there is such a qualification. The kids that have a very powerful fear never go out and have fun, but more importantly, like you said GTC, they can easily be controlled by fear. The people with very little fear, well they turn into extreme sportsmen and break every bone in their body at some point. Or they turn into criminals that dont give a rats ass about authority. With the police officer, I was only amazed that my friend didnt realize the consequences of his actions. I did. Why is that you think? Because Ive been exposed to much more consequence in my life is my take. The cops could have called everyones parents, and taken alot of kids to jail. But usually they dont. I do indeed have some fear of consequence, and so I was well aware of the possible consequences in this situation, I guess that kid was not, and I bet if he had a little more fear in him, he would have thought a little harder. Now, consequence is a lesson EVERYONE must learn, and everyone indeed learns. When you touch a hot stove, you learn the consequence of touching a hot stove. By beating me, my father was showing me the consequences of human interaction.
Why do you say I fear challenge? Where did you get that? And I dont fear speaking out… I fear the consequences of speaking out. And that fear makes me think about the consequences when presented with a situation where I can speak out. This fear is what leads to critical thinking. If I find that speaking out is worth the consequences, I will do it. But in the situation with the cop, there was absolutely no positive consequence of speaking out, either than looking cool in front of your friends. That reason does not overide my fear of the negative consequence, and so I shut my trap. That kid obviously didnt have much of a fear if that reason to look cool overided the negative consequences. I only fear consequence, as does everybody. My level of that fear is such that I think it is only beneficial, though I have seen both extremes of this fear, and I think im better off than both.
You would never force me to love you with violence. You could easily make me comply, I would do everything you wished to avoid getting knifed or zapped by you, because I dont want to feel pain, and so I fear it. I would sing all your praises, if it kept you from causing me pain. BUT, the moment you untied me thinking you have actually gotten control of me through your fear, and if you turn your back for an instant, I promise I will pick up one of those tools you used on me and I would cut you something good. Not to take control of you, but because revenge is a great feeling indeed. You would gain no respect from me by causing me pain. I will feign respect, but never give it in truth. I will respect your ability to cause me pain, just as I respect a hot stoves ability to do the same thing. But I will not respect you. I respect my father, my brother, my friends, not because they hit me, quite the opposite, they can hit me because I respect them.
Yes Aspacie, I live in the US. But my dad managed to keep me from inducing legal punishment on him, I guess I have to do the same with my kids.
Arendt, no, teachers and anyone else should not be able to hit kids. And neither should any form of authority. Police shouldnt hit people, judges shouldnt hit people. No one likes getting hit. And yet I am perfectly fine with the treatment I recieved from my father as a child. That just goes to show the kind of relationship he managed to create with me. And yes, my father does not like hitting me in front of people. For the case of other Russian families, that dont look down on hitting children, he doesn’t want to do it in front of them because it shows a failure in his discilpining, that he has to discipline me while we have guests. Also, when there are guests, guests dont like to see conflict, they like to have a good time. Though this is a guess, I have never needed discipline while we have guests. Im an angel when we have guests, because I dont think I would like getting hit in front of all those people. In front of anybody that might look down at beating children, I think anyone can see why my father would prefer not to discipline me. Because people will look down on him, maybe even call child services. He is a smart man, he is aware of consequence, and he knows not everyone, especially in America feels the same way about beating children. Its prety simple, and I dont see how it portrays anything irrational or hypocritical. Thats not the truth that my father hits me because he can. He can hit me because he can, but thats not the reason he hits me. He hits me because he feels he needs to.
Everything_Nothing,
"If I steal one hundred times, I might only get caught and spanked for 20 incedents. Therefore, since it is not a natural consequence, it is not UNIVERSALLY applied to every single incedent of my stealing - and a cost benefit ratio can be worked out. I can think to myself “I can steal 200$ before Im likely to get spanked” and work out whether its worth it to me.
Things like stealing DO have natural consequences, but if youre not teaching your kid why its WRONG, only that theyll be spanked if you catch them, then perhaps they will simply LEARN to get better at not being caught. FOCUSING on punishmnet is the wrong way to TEACH."
Please explain to me the natural consequences of stealing. Oh please do, I would love to hear this. Please do explain the rational reasons why stealing is WRONG.
“There are perfectly logical reasons to explain why stealing is wrong, why hitting is wrong, why other things are wrong. If you cannot find good enough reasons to convince your kid that something is wrong, and would rather spank your child, then perhaps this is an act of laziness? Kids arent as smart as adults - how can you lose an argument with them if you really wanted to get your point across?”
Please tell me these perfectly logical reasons for why hitting is wrong, and all these things are wrong.
“You have just made my point - teaching people to fear authority rather than explaining the universal consequences only promotes the avoidance of the man-made consequences. If all kids who are punished learn to avoid getting caught, this works against the obedience training in that they will STILL do what they have been told not to - BECAUSE they know they can avoid getting caught. If your parents strategy of using violence was so great, then what were you doing at the kind of party which requires police intervention?”
What are these universal consequences you speak of, please tell me. And about me being at the party, what does that have to do anything with it. I was at a house party, drinking. Police bust those parties all the time. My parents let me go out and drink, they had no problem with such things. They knew it was illegal, but, hell, so is beating your kids.
“But everyone who beleives something is wrong should have a rational reason for it, and be able to transmit that reason to their children properly so that the children see fault with whatever activity the parents say is wrong to the extent that they avoid getting themselves into those situations or comitting those actions”
I completely agree.
“If a person doesnt understand consideration then maybe what they need is an explanation of why what they are doing is destructive to someone else, a reminder that being inconsiderate tends to provoke others into retaliation”
Well well well. May I posit that this is your logical and rational reason for not stealing and hitting, that this is the universal consequence you have been speaking of. If this is not your reason for not doing “WRONG” things, then please explain your rational reasons. But this is indeed my reason for not doing things, because they tend to provoke retaliation. I agree with this reason. Now notice the word tend… It tends to provoke retaliation. So then this cannot be the universal consequence you mentioned. Because its not very universal if it just tends… So whats that universal consequence. Now heres your first quote again:
"If I steal one hundred times, I might only get caught and spanked for 20 incedents. Therefore, since it is not a natural consequence, it is not UNIVERSALLY applied to every single incedent of my stealing - and a cost benefit ratio can be worked out. I can think to myself “I can steal 200$ before Im likely to get spanked” and work out whether its worth it to me.
Things like stealing DO have natural consequences, but if youre not teaching your kid why its WRONG, only that theyll be spanked if you catch them, then perhaps they will simply LEARN to get better at not being caught. FOCUSING on punishmnet is the wrong way to TEACH."
So, now using this same logic, explain consideration to a kid. Explain to them, that being inconsiderate “TENDS” to provoke retaliation. But, oh wait, your not teaching them anything universal here, so, according to you, perhaps the child will just get better at being inconsiderate when it doesn’t provoke retaliation. You see Everything_Nothing, these universal consequecnes you speak of, they dont exist. Theres nothing “WRONG” with stealing, hitting, murder, rape. Absolutely nothing wrong about it. BUT, you are very right, that such actions “TEND” to provoke retaliation. And this retaliation is the the only, logical, rational explenation of why not to steal, hit, or do anything that might provoke retaliation. And so my dad did exactly that. He introduced me to the concept of such retaliation.
I would like to add a little though.
but a slug fest with a father probabably will. I am talking about an adult male using his fists to discipline his child. This is considered abuse. I have been in abuse seminars detailing what abuse is. I know, as when I taught in the public k-12 system, I was legally bound to report this.
Sorry, you are right, I am being judgemental. You make valid claims in that not all discipline works on all children. Raise your children the way you want, but if you use your fists teachers are legally bound to report this as abuse. Legally, this is considered abuse.
I climbed trees, played baseball, rode horses. My mother bought me dolls which gathered dust.
Unniscore, being off topic is a fallacy.