The point is that physical punishment is becoming quite irrational, and the conservative side of the issue keep bringing up claptrap about how “sparing the rod spoils the child” and such. This issue has been coming under heavy fire, and places, such as public schools and daycares have done away with such forms of punishment. We are moving closer and closer to making such laws against physical punishment, and therefore, I found it necessary to point out that those nations are not some violent anarchy of mobs of violent children. The contradiction between societal and parental methods is unfolding, and things cannot merely balance out forever in a contradiction. Physical punishment has had its day. It is dying out, and it has paved the way for a higher form of nonviolent discipline.
FYI: The rod was a measurement tool, and a tool to guide critters to the the best grazing areas. That is, many claim this means spare the guidance and spoil the child.
Why? You not liking it, and the fact that some people seem to do alright without it, doesn't invalidate the method. You're leaping from 'here is an alternative' to 'here is the way everyone needs to do things'.
If I had a quarter for everybody who told me their way of seeing things was the Dawning of a New Age, and that people who disagree with them 'have had their day', I'd be posting this from a much nicer computer. It makes for a nice speech, but it's not any sort of convincing argument for anything.
No. Just trying to get you to agree with me, Tank. See, this is what I have to do so you agree with what I want: offer you booze, party, sex. Imagine, Tank, if we meet each other: I wouldn’t wanna fall in love with you because then I might want to marry you and have your baby. So, now we’re married and have a child together. Tank, I would not allow you to hit, even a mild spank, my precious little creature. If you do, I will not put a .45 caliber bullet in your brain, because after all you are my baby’s father. What would I do, Tank? I would go out and have sex with several men, each night, to hurt you. Yeah, that’s what I would do. Become a slut until it hurts you.
Thanks Uccisore, great arguments!
Apacia, I have had the impression throughout my life that psychology and any science that has anything to do with human behavior is as yet a very weak science. I also have the impression that psychoanalysts talk out of their ass alot. But thats beside the point. I have absolutely no problem talking to a “professional”, I myself am aware of some of the studies, and some of the signs of abuse. And at this point I am geting sort of frustrated with you. Lets see if this helps get the point across aspacia. I showed this thread to my brother to see what he thinks. First thing he said was
“Dad does not BEAT you!!! He BARELY touches you, ide call it a smack!!! Using the word BEAT like that is misrepresenting, your trying to exagerate. People are going to misinterpret you and think theres actuall abuse going on. Dad never meant any harm and you know it, he just wanted to make you uncomfertable, make you feel a little pain”
Does that help aspacia? Though I quickly looked up the word beat and the first definition is “repeated blows” so I think “beat” is exactly right. But then, in my first post, I also called what he did “hard core punches” Ok I take that back, I guess I was trying to be a little contreverscial, and exagerated. But believe me, the pain and discomfert induced was not chump change by any means, it was enough to get me doing what my dad told me, and just enough.
Really aspacia, there is no abuse going on. None what so ever. My father has never raised a finger towards my mother. He is incredibly smart, and calculates ALL of his actions, and always has an incredibly valid reason for all of them. To convince my father of anything you must pull out your best arguments, your absolute best. Not because hes stubborn, but because hes got such good reasons for everything he does. And that includes physical punishment.
Lastly, let me just say this, if I am psychologicly scarred, and in a vicious cycle where I will beat my kids, then this process is subconcious, because I can assure you im not in denial, and thus if the scarring exists, its on a subconcious level. So, analyzing my own concious and comparing it to the concious minds of other people in the world that I have met, I have found that the beating I recieved, and the other kids out there that have recieved beating, are far better off in life than the children who have not been beaten. I dont know how bad the emotional scarring is, because no one can be aware of it since its subconsious. But I do know of the concious scarring that occurs to UNDISCIPLINED children. I see their concious minds, and so no matter how I look at it, using physical punishment seems to be the better choice. Even if I am giving my children psychological scars for the rest of their lives, I would rather them have those scars and be raised well, than not have scars and be raised as brats with no awareness of consequence.
Hahahaha, arendt…
You dont need to offer me sex or vodka for me to agree… But like I said, I still would love some vodka. Im always up for vodka… I made my point about why strangers should not be able to hit people. Like I said, the lack of a relationship makes it so the physical punishment implemented by the relative stranger could easily be much more harmfull than if someone with a relationship does it. And I have never heard of a parent convincing their child to feel safe and generally comfertable with getting beaten by a relative stranger. So though teacher beating kids is theoreticly possible, I dont think it is practicle at all.
About our child arendt. This is a very good point… In the current American cultural climate, I would be hard pressed to find a women that actually feels the same way or is at least tolerant of such actions. But Ile cross that bridge when I get to it.
Especially, Dr. Laura.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was not resorting to hyperbole. Your comments, but you did say
Good, I am glad you are not abused, this was my main concern. Take care and good luck with your academic education.
Yes, these children’s parents usually are too lazy or too busy to discipline them. I have often seen this and agree with you. Remember, I was a very strict parent who not only nailed my son when necessary, I often had to go toe to toe with my mother regarding my discipline. That is, I often would not let my son see her when she interferred with my discipline and undermined my authority. This extended to him attending church with her.
Welcome to my world kid. This is not Burger King and you can’t have it your way. Now as to the life you thought you were going to enjoy next week . . .
You get the picture.
Heh, thnx aspacia, and dont worry, ile take it easy on my kids
Not too easy I hope. Discipline, patience and time with the extracurricular activities, pool parties, team parent, as well as helping with homework, and remember to be honest when your child has one of those “nice” but dishonest teachers who is too lazy to teach and grade. You may be the only one to teach your child for year long stints. I know, as I have been there.
Damnit… some guys have all the luck! 
I did not know that. I guess that I am too used to hearing the distortion of this by advocates of physical punishment.
From Uccisore:
You don’t know what I meant by irrational, now do you? First of all, find out what Hegel meant by the term irrational as I used it. Also, the point is that physical punishment is not necessary! I read in my college psychology textbook last semester that nonviolent punishment is more likely to work out than physcial punishment. I am showing what is becoming more popular in usage. The growing contradiction between parental and societial discipline is unfolding, especially since public schools and daycare centers have done away with such punishment. This issue is under a massive barrage of fire. People and their attitudes are changing toward this, and less people are using this punishment.
The signs are rather obvious that things are indeed changing. Less parents are using it, people don’t really talk about it too much in person, as people are becoming less tolerant of parents that use such punishment, and nations have outlawed it, I believe that the most recent was Iceland in 2003. You need to do a bit of studying. I don’t think that you know what I mean by rationality, lower paving way for the higher, etc.
Yeah, yeah, yeah…now change the baby’s diaper.
Depends on the manner it’s done and the frequency and severity.
I’m adamently opposed to spanking, as it’s a dead lead to fetishism.
I say no more than a good open handed smack upside the head once in a while.
Once again, some study that says non-spanking works, and popular trends are not arguments for anything. You know as well as I do that another study saying the exact opposite will probably be published, if it hasn't already- that's just the nature of science when it's applied to anything remotely controversial. You still haven't said anything credible about why spanking is bad, other than 'more and more people' seem to think so. What is that supposed to prove? Globally, parents that spank still probably outnumber those that don't by 100 to 1. Does that mean you're mostly wrong, but growing righter as time goes by?
As a general rule, that’s what things do.
Yes I do, you mean the same thinly-veiled cultural elitism that's common: People following the latest trends are Enlightened (philosophy speak for 'cool'), people who do things the way their parents did are troglodytes. Is that about the gist of it, or am I missing some of the details?
These contadictory studies prove my point, i.e. there is a correlation between physical punishment and negative side-effects!
ship.edu/~cgboeree/skinner.html
familyresource.com/parenting/26/149/
naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html
naturalchild.com/james_kimme … hment.html
naturalchild.com/sidney_crai … hment.html
Also, you need to learn about what is meant by Hegel’s saying, “All that is real is rational. All that is rational is real.”
If things are going to inevitably going to change, and alternatives exist, why cling to the old and decaying?
Utterly incorrect.
Volkov, I dont think anybody has done a study about how not beating children has a significant risk of creating inconsiderate, arrogent, selfish, unpleasent (relative to me ofcourse) human beings. People, that I think can be statisticly proven to cause more problems in society than the people who have been physicly disciplined, and survived with no emotional damage (me) PLUS the people that have the damage. I think such a study should be done.
Form what I have read, parents that set realistic standards and such have more effective ways. I have also read that nonviolent punishments are the most likely punishments to yield the desired results. There have been numerous studies on child abuse, I believe, and beating falls under child abuse in many nations.
Shiite…why did I enter this forum? (about 4 dozen members wonder the same thing…HEY!!! 
)
I haven’t read the entire thread but, as always, most posts contain some turth, so here’s my perspective. After having done hundreds of assessments (one of my jobs is to assess parents whose kids have been apprehended by child protection agencies), I can state with some authority that many (most?) parents who hit their children do so when they are not “in control” of their own emotions and thus are doing it in a way that is usually not going to PROPERLY model or teach their children whatever it was they were unable to do without beating them. Moreover, I’ve done enough assessments of ALL types of people to know that the abuse of a child DOES have an impact on them (of course many factors are involved, but abuse does NOT have any known GOOD outcomes).
However, it is also true that parents who do NOT discipline their children properly (e.g., setting RULES and BOUNDARIES and LIMITS) increase the risk exponentially that their kids will be messed up; such kids can be overly self-absorbed, lack empathy, have no internal control, posess very fragile self-esteem that they unconsciously defend at all costs (such as externalizing blame/responsibility for everything worng that they themselves do, or not being able to recognize their own flaws thus their potential for change/improvement is very limited). Also, such parents who are remiss in their duties often do so for their OWN needs…they are so fragile themselves that they fear that disciplining their kids will cause these kids to not love them. Thus they are, in fact, failing their kids in order to satisfy their OWN needs. And such parents cannot adequately satisfy OTHERS’ needs (e.g., kids). These kids, in turn, are unable to PROPERLY satisfy their own needs and, at the same time, cannot properly empathize with others or put others’ needs ahead of their own. And so the cycle continues…these people typically cannot have satisfying adult relationships, nor can they raise their own kids properly.
Everything I’ve written is not, of course, carved in stone. Things CAN happen to break the cycle, but it’s not easy at all. I should know, given the thousands of people I’ve assessed and treated and done research on, many of whom fit the histories and patterns described above…
I don’t agree. However, I do believe that a parents’ authority has to begin very early. Having five children (boys) I think I may have some insight into the fine art of discipline.
- Raise your first child right and he (she) will teach the others
- I never had to spank my children because they knew I would take them out* if they broke the rules (most of you have witnessed my “edge” here… not pretty.)
- Violence begets violence; yelling begets yelling; kindness begets kindness; fairness begets fairness.
- Always apologize when you are wrong - they will learn that too.
- I have 5 boys spaced in 7 years!!! SPANKING IS NOT PRODUCTIVE… it teaches them to hit each other, and possibly future spouses and/or their own children.
*taking them out = Achilles heel of the moment (could be gameboy, could be the car, could be a Wendy’s Frosty, could be ANYTHING… but mean it and BE CONSISTENT.)
couldn’t have said it better, Bessy. Spoken like a true male college student pretending to be a hep cat momma with five boys!