So, what’s the best martial art?
Ha. You have just stumbled into my expertise. I am one of the hugest Mixed Martial Art fans out there. Maybe you have seen the commercials on TV for Pride Fighting or the Ultimate Fighting Championships?
This is basically how it evolved. Back in 1993 everyone was pretty much practicing only one martial art. There were Kung Fu guy, there were Tae Kwon Do guys etc. Well Then an event came to PPV called the Ultimate Fighting Championship where they pitted all these stylists against eachother. In that first event they had martial artists from Savate, Shootfighting, Tae Kwon Do, Sumo, Karate, Kickboxing and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
Well Royce Gracie the BJJ artist absolutely destroyed everyone. It wasn’t even close. He was by far the smallest competitor at 176 pounds and he made a complete joke of everyone else in that tournament.
THe UFC ppv was wildly popular and so there were more up to UFC 2,3,4 and Royce Gracie’s dominance still prevailed over everyone until UFC 5 when he fought Shootboxer Ken Shamrock to a draw. Royce Gracie retired from the UFC after that and from then on a new phase entered…the wrestler…American Olympic wrestlers such as Mark Coleman, Mark Schultz, Kevin Jackson,Randy Couture, Mark Kerr started competing in the UFC and dominating. They were too big, too strong, too athletic. If they were fighting a standup fighter they would simply shoot in on him take him down and ground and pound. The stand up fighter (karate,kung fu,etc) didn’t have a chance.
A new breed of fighter was emerging the wrestler and BJJ stylists were learning eachothers arts and GRAPPLING was dominate. And then somethign strange happened…Maurice Smith a kickboxer who trained in grappling for a few years beat Wrestling superstar Mark Coleman and reintroduced striking into the scene. At around the same time 19 year old Vitor Belfort a Brazlian Jiu Jitsu black belt and near olympic caliber boxer was beating the shit out of everyone. Striking was back. But only if you knew enough grappling that you could Avoid being taking down by an Olympic level wrestler(TOUGH TASK)
Now 8…years later and crosstraining is still dominate. You mustt know how to grapple and Strike!
The most common combinations of martial arts is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai mixed with wrestling takedowns.
Just seems to me that being taken down by a grappler proves not the strength of grappling, but the weakness of those Previously mentioned styles. I find it hard to believe that a fully trained Five Animals or even a cross trained Xingyi/Bagua martial artist would have such trouble with grappling. I would think the instant a grappler shot in he’d be met with a barrage of backknuckles to the small bones in the hands and the thick bones in the head. That’d be a helluva disincentive. I would kill to watch a BJJ dude take on A monkey boxer. I would have sex with my mom to see that.
I dunno, Hermes. I mean what do I tell a guy who prefers Hendrix over Vaughan?
[laughing]
Dude, you can’t tell me that Stevie didn’t rape “Little Wing.”
I rest my case.
Okay fine, he loves to bend and pull off the E’s and A’s, the sweeps, and the hammer on’s, but that’s blues man. There’s not much one can do with a pentatonic scale. Stevie is also a very fluent jazz guitarist, something Hendrix never messed with.
Fighting, eh?
Speaking from experience, the most formidable fighting style seems to be grappling. I have been in many fights in my life, and the majority end up on the ground in a wrestling match. Seldom does one defeat an opponent with a punch or a kick, unless it was unanticipated. I, personally, have never been “knocked out,” though I have submitted before. The times when I have won a fight without leaving my feet were exceptional. My attack was explosive, uncalculated, and raging. The sudden force was, as I mentioned, unanticipated. In such a case, being a “professional fighter” makes no difference…you’re going down either way.
I agree with Billy. We have seen Gracie, a meager 5’ 11", 180 lbs., beat opponents who were towering in size and strength. This is because of technique.
Most fights, like I said, end up on the ground. To be an efficient fighter, then, is to master such things as joint manipulation, submission holds, etc. Relying on dexterity moreso than strength. For this I recommend Jujitsu and Akido.
Martial art styles that focus on striking (punching and kicking) are unpractical. I have, for example, nearly broken a foot that was delivered to my head by a supposed black belt in Ti Kwon Do(sp?). The point? If you are going to kick make damn sure your opponent doesn’t catch your foot. The same with punching. If you miss there will be a moment of vulnerabilty. An open door. If I get my hands on you, you won’t be punching anymore. [wink]
So I think most martial arts are just that: “art.” Usually, in a fight, you don’t get to execute all those fancy moves you learned in the dojo, and might likely get your ass beat for trying to pull them off.
I had a friend who took Wing Chun for a few years. At the time he was my friend and roomate, and I used to go to his classes to watch and spar with the others when I could get the chance. I found that their techniques, while certainly complex and dangerous if executed correctly, rarely could be executed correctly with me. They would tease me and say “you’re not allowed to do that!,” when I’d duck and shoot for the waist, taking them to the ground immediately. Hey, I thought that was the point! Aren’t we fighting here?
Oh, we’re “dancing.” I’m sorry. I’ll sit this one out.
Akido, if you want to ask me…
Hermes,
LOL. If you posted that comment on any fighting board you would get laughed right out of dodge. Like I said there have been many many kung fu stylists who have attempted to fight MMA. Never have I ever seen any of them win. Ever. It just doesn’t happen, all styles of Kung Fu are horrible. They only look good in the movies, not in real life.
A great analogy is this…People who think all that Jet Li/Jackie Chan/Bloodsport stuff works in real life are the Creationist/adam and eve believers of the martial arts world.
bullshido.net/modules.php?s= … load&cid=1
That links to a page with a bunch of fighting video clips. Scroll down till you see MMA vs. Kung Fu…
There is also a Wing Chun vs. Submission fighter on page 2 clip from the UFC that is also pretty good.
aikido is almost equally as bad.
See what happened? When the grappler seized him, the Wing Chun fighter made two critical mistakes:
He tried to remain standing instead of kneeling down to counter his weight.
He put his arms around the grapplers back instead of his neck. If he had done the latter, the grappler would be in an awkward guard position on the mat, eliminated many of his offensive possibilites. You can’t do much when your head is buckled.
But he didn’t know that, obviously. He had plenty of time to do at least one defensive move I mentioned.
This is the best fighter in the entire world. Fedor Emelianenko
Here is another video clip for you
Ralph Gracie (BJJ) vs. Karate champion
sherdog.com/videos/download. … ality=High Quality&dl=misc/ef1/ef1_gracie_vs_muraoko.zip
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how you can think Stevie Ray vaugh is better than hendrix is beyond me. henrix didn’t do jazz ? What do you call Pali Gap, Rainy Day dream away and multiple other songs? Just because Hendrix didn’t rip off Kenny Burrell, doesn’t mean he doesn’t know jazz. What can you say to someone who likes vaughn over Hendrix? That he’s taken the time to investigate a situation.
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You beat up somebody who knows Tae Kwan Do. Wow! you beat Up somebody who practices an commodity exported from the Republic Of Korea with the sole purpose of making money.
I know a Southern Praying Mantis boxer who blinded a guy at a UFC prelim match witha Phoenix eye punch. I’ve seen Chen style Taiji boxers level people. I’ve seen hung gar boxers crush comers of various styles. Karate and those striking arts generally suck because they’re terribly watered down. they practice no iron hand, no conditioning, no tiedajiu work, they are not practicing to fight but to dance. I agree. I don’t think you guys are comparing apples to apples. Real legitimate kung fu is a fucking dangerous dangerous martial art.
What idiot kicks to the head? The shmoe got what he deserved.
- jet Li and Jackie Chan aren’t kung Fu. jet li couldn’t beat up a kid. he’s A wushu stylist. Jackie Chan is a fucking Opera Star, he’s trained to be acrobatic and flashy. See, for the UFC-is-the-best crowd to come out on top they have to compare kung fu to these two because if they knew anything abuot Chinese martial Arts, they;d have to watch their tongues. Check Out John Painter, or Bruce Frantzis or fucking Yip Man or CC liang or Wong Ting Fong or Lam Sau or the List goes On.
4 how do San shou boxers do in the UFC?
- A real organic traditional kung fu style contains within it all manner of fighting and should be able to handle grappling fairly easily. Any shaolin style, provided it’s a REAL shaolin style, is going to have dog or monkey techniques, all very effective.
No, I did not “beat him up.” I pinned him to the ground and forced him to reconsider.
Do you think I’m bragging? I’m not a fighter, Herpes, I’m a lover. I would rather have a battle of wits. That would even the odds, since I’m not renound the world over for my intelligence. See? I like you. I’d give you a chance.
You are carried away in a fashion gimmick. The “drunken fire grasshopper steel dragon monkey fist” isn’t going to make or break the fight. It does, however, look good as an advertisement to lure all the angry teenagers into the dojo so they can pretend that they are like their favorite movie star while refusing to turn over their lunch money to Butch the school Bully.
Logistically speaking, no specific combat style is full proof. There are variables involved that change everything. You can practice punching a board full of nails for ten years, making your knuckles as hard as iron. But what good does that do when the circumstances in the fight do not allow you to use those iron knuckles?
Statistically, grappling is the best all around fighting style. All these exotic variations you speak about are based off of the same basic themes.
- Punch
- Kick
- Wrestle
What more can a human body do? The flashy names don’t change the flailing arms and kicking feet.
You are lying. No one has ever been blinded in the UFC. This simply never happened. All UFC prelims are at UFC shows and therefore you must have gone to a UFC show to see a UFC prelim. But you never had or otherwise you would not be talkign the ridiculous nonsense that you are. I have also seen every UFC show and every prelim and this simply never happened.
Mirko Cro Cop does. One of the best strikers on the planet.
Vid for proof
sherdog.com/videos/download. … ality=High Quality&dl=misc/inoki/inoki_filipovic_vs_nagata.zip
Here is a list of Mixed Martial Art fights and styles. This is from when people were not crosstrained in many different styles and the statistical breakdowns. Here are the Top 20 martial arts
Martial art …Wins…losses…Percentage
1.Freestyle/Greco-Roman Wrestling 58 10 0.85
2Freestyle Jiu-Jitsu 94 18 0.84
3.Brazilian Jiu jitsu 51 19 0.73
4.Jiu-Jitsu 291 137 0.68
5.Vale Tudo 70 33 0.68
6.Wrestling 403 197 0.67
7.Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 604 297 0.67
8.Muay Thai / BJJ 65 34 0.66
9.Submission Fighting 264 145 0.65
10.Muay Thai 156 86 0.64
11.Shootfighting 104 58 0.64
12.Jiu Jitsu 70 42 0.63
13.Sambo 119 74 0.62
14.Pancrase 132 86 0.61
15.Freestyle 154 109 0.59
16.Luta Livre 98 74 0.57
17,Wajyutsu 73 57 0.56
18.Shooto 493 388 0.56
19.lRings Submission Fighting 73 64 0.53
20.Pankration 78 72 0.52
This is taken from a database so it is a little off as you can see fighters who said they practice Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu appear differently then those who forgot the -. But really its the same.
De’trop, you’re a brawler. nice. Lemme make myself perfectly clear here so that everyone can attack what I actually stand for, not for flashes in the night.
I do not feel, given what I have seen, that contemporary styles are particularly useful for anything other than pretty man oil wrestling. I completely agree that no style is full proof and it comes down to the individuals fighting. A drunk who lashes out with bottle-fu is A pretty treacherous opponent. I also completely agree that flashy names for punching kicking and wrestling do not disguise the fact that we are just flailing our arms around like angry monkeys. I am fairly pragmatic about martial arts, but I’ve been surrounded by the karate/tkd/bjj propaganda that seems to me to be little more than a commodity market pumping out diplomas as fast as students are willing to pay for them. If a shootfighter or a capoeira angloa fighter can give a hung gar boxer a run for His money good deal. That is a set of fights I would LOVE to watch.
I use the flashy terminology because the specific names root variations of arm flailing in times and places. I apologize if it seems like grasshopper ninja name-dropping. I especially use animals in a Chinese context because these terms have specific technical meaning.
H3M
Capoeira is laughably ineffective. And its not that we believe that a MMA can give Hung gar boxing a run for its money its that WE KNOW that Hung gar boxing trying to fight a well trained MMA is like facing the U.S Military on horseback.
Hermes, let me ask you this. Look at yourself and see is there any bias towards your opinion? What makes you think this style is so effective? Obviously you have a bias here, now where does it come from?
Obviously Kung Fu is not a better striking art that Muay Thai. Otherwise we would have seen some Kung Fu Expert win K-1. Hell there is a lot of money to be made there. Nor have we seen any professional boxers use any Kung Fu punching techniques. Why? Because they are ineffective. Nor do K-1 fighters use any Kung fu punching or kicking techniques.
I am biased towards kung fu because I study hung gar. I refer to hung gar because I have seen hung gar In action. I refer to Southern Praying Mantis because I have been hit with a Phoenix eye punch.
Why is it so obvious that Kung fu is a better striking art than Muai Thai ?
I think your K1 rules may be a Little biased against kung fu, as it was started by a japanese fella. WE don’t KNOW anything. Americans tend to downplay kung fu because most of the good stuff isn’t readily available like kickboxing or TKD and because it take 3-5 years to really get it down to useability.
Bill,
my question is this: are you an MMA fighter or a spectator?
Also I refered to Capoeira Angola, not regionao. Angola is the original african shit. What’s cool about it is that they fought with straight razors in their hands .
Let’s all read together the UFC rules and see how they’re designed not to allow anything but kickboxing grappling pretty oil man fighting.
These are the fouls from ufc.tv/learnUFC/rulesUfc.asp
Butting with the head.
a lovely hung gar technique
Eye gouging of any kind.
understandable, but this disqualifies any type of spearhand or snakehand strike
Biting.
We all remember Bruce Lee’s advice
Hair pulling.
understandable, but disqualifies Eagle Claw and Tiger Claw styles
Fish hooking.
Eskimo wrestling - cool.
Groin attacks of any kind.
There goes EVERY kick in Hung gar and the southern kung fu styles.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Good bye pressure point striking
Small joint manipulation.
Good bye Chin na
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Goddbye ridge hand attack
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Good bye elbow strikes
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the
trachea. good bye tiger claw
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Good bye eagle claw, goodbye tiger claw
Grabbing the clavicle.
ouch
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
makes sense, but it also Means I can’t throw most of my low snap kicks
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
…
Stomping a grounded opponent.
…
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Sweet!!!
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. no more shuai jiao for you mister UFC man
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
This is exactly what you’re supposed to do in Lei Tai chinese sparring.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Well this discounts even more hung gar techniques
Spitting at an opponent.
Fuckin’ cool
gaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent. EnIs this any of the above rules?
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.
most of this is technical stuff pertaining not to actual fighting, but to the event itself.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
I think this disqualifies tai chi.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.
With all of this, yes, you’re right, Mixed Martial arts are superior to Kung Fu. Everyone knows it. This is supposed to be Reality fighting? This is what’s so superior to chinese martial arts.
Really Bill come on, who would want to fight with all those rules? No wonder no kung fu people fight in the UFC. any attack they throw, they’ll draw a foul.
Hermes,
All these rules are very new rules that were implemented about 2 years ago. They had to do it to be get it legalized in Nevada.By this time the UFC would never dream of letting a Kung Fu fighter fight any more because they were just an embarassment and the UFC had become a sport where the best fighters fought and no longer a spectacle.
In the early UFC’s there were literally TWO rules
No Eye gouging, no biting. That is all. All the Kung Fu fighters who fought in the UFC fought under these two rules.
Please Try again.
And I already showed you a video clip of a Kung Fu guy facing a MMA fighter in A Dojo. They had agreed to absolutely NO rules. You can Hear people say Watch the eyes. And what happened? A massacre. The Kung Fu guy was destroyed.
I would suggest you purchase the Gracie In Action videotapes. They will help you lose your brainwashing. And I’m sorry you have spent time and money on training on a completely useless art where the average high school wrestler would have no trouble destroying you. But this is a good thing.
You might as well tap out, Herms.
Hell, the match is probably rigged anyway.
What does it matter? Nowadays, if a martial artists starts any shit, he’s going to get shot. The days of creating Nun-chakus(sp?) out of sugar cane cutters are over.
We’d all better learn “way of the loaded 44 magnum” if we are going to survive.
A dramatization:
Ju Fut Lu- “Heeeee…yahh…waaaaaaaaaaaaa,…KEEY-YAH!!!..”
John Hancock- “click…POW!!!”
Ju Fut Lu- “uhaaaa…[thud]”