Best song ever written

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121

Not sure what you think the gate it to…

It is debatable is Zappa is prog in any sense. In fact I think he is something else entirely.
Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Led Zep, ELP, Cream had barely heard of him and were not really influnced by him.
Heavy rock started as early as the Kinks “You really Got Me”.
Beatles Sgt Pepper and Stone His Satanic Majesty Albums set the world on the road to Prog Rock. Freak Out got out first but its a pretty confused bunch of stuff. Derivative and spoofy.

Zappa has his own genre.

It’s more like Political Standup comedy set to music, and MOCK ROCK.

I’d not doubt his skill. In fact some of his stuff is so complex that only Frank could listen to it. And many people bought albums for show but could not listen to them.

122

You might know how to play keyboards but your sense of musical history is poor indeed, and your taste in music is very limited.

123

I don’t disagree with that. I have very particular taste buds (to use the analogy) and I’m also allergic to some foods.

That’s how it works with music.

What did you think of the McLean song?

124

I’m pretty sure it’s doable. You just have to know how to do it. I’d kindly suggest you’re conflating “I can’t do it because I don’t know how / have yet to learn how” with “It’s not possible”.

And I also think there might be a way to determine “the best song ever written”.

I think it’s okay – and fun – but far, very far, from being “the height of cool”.

They shouldn’t call it “progressive”. Rather pretentious term, if you ask me. The proper term would be “experimental”. That’s what they are doing – they are experimenting. They are trying out new, previously untested, things and thereby discovering new interesting ways in which music can be fun. But overall, their efforts aren’t really that great (since they aren’t properly finalized.)

Time Out is also fun but far from being great piece of music. So is anything by Aphex Twin (such as this piece.)

I don’t have narrow tastes and I wouldn’t want to limit myself to these “progressive” pieces. And if I absolutely had to, I’d limit myself to a different kind of music.

125

No. It’s not because I am stupid. quite the opposite. I know the difference between objective criteria and subective values.

GO on then. But I won’t hold my breath
What are your critieria for he best song ever written?

That’s only because you are not cool, but I am.

That’s only because you are ignorant of the history of music. It is progressive because that words was used to best describe the emerging rack genre of 1970, from the Like of ELP, King Crimson, Pink Floyd and others.

But, you see, Progressive Rock is the best genre by far, and so that is exacly where you will find the best sing ever written.

126

I like Jazz, so example one is interesting.
I hate example two as it has no musicianship and thatis one of my key criteria for the appreciation of music

127

I agree with many of your criticisms and musical judgements, but here I must correct you. The reason it is called progressive isn’t the spirit behind it, that it’s super progressive or whatever. Perhaps the confusion was purposefully allowed and it is true that, from that point of view, it is one more reason to dislike these nerds.

But the reason it is called progressive has to do with the musical structure. Rather than unfolding, the melody and harmony progresses. It is not a style of music that has an opening argument, some considerations and a conclusion, an arc shaped arc. Rather, each short amount of bars is its own argument, and the next bar only concerns itself with finding a way to progress from that last bar. There is no care or interest for an overall arc, though one can maybe be found simply by the coherence formed by the progressions. This is why #1 they can allow themselves a genius and freedom of composition that is rarely seen even in academic music and #2 why it seems to lack a soul, anything really to say. It’s like they become so enamoured by and obsessed with the math that they forget they are writing an equation.

128

^^^ exactly!

The genre didn’t get established until there was enough existing formulaic music and musical trends for which to be contrasted to. It is then called ‘progressive’ by that comparison… because of its abnormality and violation of the expected norms. It must be anatomically different from the standard forms from which it came to be progressive, and that classification continued changing until the nineties. Now nothing more substantial can be done with music, and the genre becomes ambiguous like all the mechanized sound effect crap now called progressive on the radio.

129

Here’s something you may not have thought of.

Dido’s lament (When I am laid in earth)

Thy hand, Belinda, darkness shades me,
On thy bosom let me rest,
More I would, but Death invades me;
Death is now a welcome guest.
When I am laid, am laid in earth,
May my wrongs create
No trouble, no trouble in thy breast;
Remember me, remember me, but ah! forget my fate.
Remember me, but ah! forget my fate.

youtube.com/watch?v=19RJKnh9hbU

It is beautiful, and incredibly sad when you know the libretto.

130

I didn’t say it’s because you’re stupid. I said it’s because you don’t know how to do that particular thing. You don’t know how to discover what you really like the most. That does not necessarily mean you’re stupid – which is a general term denoting less than average level of ability to think – albeit in certain cases it can be implied (and when that happens, it can lead to offense and over-reaction.)

Just to be sure, we’re talking about what you like the most (not the best song ever written in general.)

Don’t hold your breath, I am not going to do it. In the same exact way that you chose to not prove your claim, I will opt to not prove mine. I was merely offering an opinion in response to yours, my friend. You offered an opinion (and no more than that) and I merely responded by doing the same – offering my own opinion.

That’s ironic coming from someone who thinks that there’s no such thing as “the best song ever written”.

“Progressive” implies they are doing something better than the rest. “Progressive” as in “moving forward”, “moving beyond the established formulas towards what is better”. It sends the message “You guys over there, you are stagnant.” And in a limited sense, they are progressive. They are trying to move away from the established conventions – that much is true. But are they moving towards the better? I wouldn’t say so. Their work has value – that’s for sure – but I’d say it’s far from being better than what was already there. “Experimental” is a much better term. THe fact it has no positive connation is probably the reason it wasn’t picked. “Weird” is also applicable but that that’s towards the negative, so that’s clearly a big no from their point of view.

131

I don’t know about this. It was always fairly formulaic. Similar beat signatures, for one, and this whole concept of the progression of melody, and many of the specific progressions were similar to each other. This all simply gets covered by the fact that, even within this strict formula, the freedom and complexity is almost unparalleled. And, other than where it is paralleled, in exponentially greater degree.

To me, because I like romance, I think of them as ‘the guys who sold their soul to the devil.’ In return they got mad skills and compositions that leave everything else gasping for air in the dust, but for that they had to relinquish soul. From the very beginning, there is nothing for the soul to chew on. You listen to a Mozart piece, or whatever, or Ra Ra Rasputin, and your soul eats, a clear message is transmitted, the melodies and harmonies progress to something, there is something being built up to. But progressive music doesn’t progress to anything in particular, it just progresses, it just builds, like an entire episode made of cliffhangers.

132

You’ll all probably hate this, but here goes.

These lyrics just summon up great images, of muddy Brazilian roads and more.
Written by Antonio Carlos Jobim the man that gave you Garrota d’Ipanema

Possibly one of the most covered songs of all time,best done as a duet I think.

youtube.com/watch?v=wBEesrdaRog
youtube.com/watch?v=I4MKUTyslC8
youtube.com/watch?v=g3oNSFQVzNM

My particular favourite is this one because of the unadorned beautiful simplicity of her voice:
youtube.com/watch?v=tzVNJGt0V5U

A stick, a stone
It’s the end of the road
It’s the rest of a stump
It’s a little alone

It’s a sliver of glass
It is life, it’s the sun
It is night, it is death
It’s a trap, it’s a gun

The oak when it blooms
A fox in the brush
A knot in the wood
The song of a thrush

The wood of the wind
A cliff, a fall
A scratch, a lump
It is nothing at all

It’s the wind blowing free
It’s the end of the slope
It’s a beam, it’s a void
It’s a hunch, it’s a hope

And the river bank talks
Of the waters of March
It’s the end of the strain
The joy in your heart

The foot, the ground
The flesh and the bone
The beat of the road
A slingshot’s stone

A fish, a flash
A silvery glow
A fight, a bet
The range of a bow

The bed of the well
The end of the line
The dismay in the face
It’s a loss, it’s a find

A spear, a spike
A point, a nail
A drip, a drop
The end of the tale

A truckload of bricks
In the soft morning light
The shot of a gun
In the dead of the night

A mile, a must
A thrust, a bump
It’s a girl, it’s a rhyme
It’s a cold, it’s the mumps

The plan of the house
The body in bed
And the car that got stuck
It’s the mud, it’s the mud

Afloat, adrift
A flight, a wing
A hawk, a quail
The promise of spring

And the riverbank talks
Of the waters of March
It’s the promise of life
It’s the joy in your heart

A stick, a stone
It’s the end of the road
It’s the rest of a stump
It’s a little alone

A snake, a stick
It is John, it is Joe
It’s a thorn in your hand
And a cut in your toe

A point, a grain
A bee, a bite
A blink, a buzzard
A sudden stroke of night

A pin, a needle
A sting, a pain
A snail, a riddle
A wasp, a stain

A pass in the mountains
A horse and a mule
In the distance the shelves
Rode three shadows of blue

And the riverbank talks
Of the waters of March
It’s the promise of life
In your heart, in your heart

A stick, a stone
The end of the road
The rest of a stump
A lonesome road

A sliver of glass
A life, the sun
A knife, a death
The end of the run

And the riverbank talks
Of the waters of March
It’s the end of all strain
It’s the joy in your heart

133

The nice thing about progressive metal is that the sounds are much more homogeneous, so the formula becomes clearer.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32htyO1-dvQ[/youtube]

A more advanced example:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHBCPdcCnm8[/youtube]

No, I certainly do not know why octopuses feature so prominently in progressive metal.

In this second example, it is even more clear how each movement reaches for something, grasps for something, seems to imply a resolution, but only leads to another movement that progresses from it, and simply keeps asking questions, and the whole album is a groping, a reaching. So, too, is all progressive rock a groping, a reaching, a joy in the subtleties of melodic-harmonic composition without any actual interest in solving any of its problems.

Take a Bach composition. It is a flurry of melodies and harmonies, a chaos of implications and questions. But he never poses a problem he is not willing to see through to the end, a question he is not willing to answer:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdsyNwUoON0[/youtube]

134

And that precisely and exactly describes what they were doing.

They took rock to a place where composing excellence and brilliant musicianship were taken to be a premium.

Take a look at the stuf, claimed to be the best 3 songs of 1970 - the best sellers were:

01 Elvis Presley The Wonder Of You
02 Mungo Jerry In The Summertime
03 Freda Payne Band Of Gold

These are good songs but like chewing gum. Popular and temporary.

135

Let me see if I understand you. My claim is that the genre is called “progressive” to indicate that its artists are trying “to move beyond the established formulas towards something better” or in plain terms “to make better music (i.e. to innovate) instead of merely making music of the same quality (i.e. repeating the same)”. I suppose that’s what you’re disputing. My random guess is that this is a marketing term – perhaps nothing to do with nerds noodling on their guitars. “Progressive” as in “better than the rest” sounds like a pretty good marketing term to me. But you’re saying this is wrong and that the real reason they call it “progressive” is because it lacks overall arc (i.e. moving or progressing forward without any regard for how that progression fits into the bigger picture.) I can see how that can be the case. It’s certainly a very good description of that kind of music (but not merely it.) That would make the term unpretentious but still rather unfitting. (But then, what music genre has a fitting term? None.)

136

Yes, not only the lack of overall arc, but the specific way one movements leads to another. The relationship between successive movements is progressive. Rather than resolving a movement, the next movement picks elements from it and progresses them.

137

I think, if you don’t already understand this fairly obscure fact about its composition, your interpretation is the intuitive one and, like I said, I think it was intentionally allowed to stand. It pleased their egos.

138

Ah, folk music, played by average folks with simple instruments and melodies.

139

Hahahahaha, folk music composition tends to obliterate pop or classical music in terms of complexity

140

Few years ago, I posted Kung Fu World Champion. Prom seemed somehwhat intrigued by it (he was far more impressed by the prog metal piece CAFO.) The best part starts at 1:16 – the guy in sweater playing the bass. It certainly helps that one of the members is a female and an expressive one at that.

I think that most people born in 80’s and later have no trouble appreciating both Richard D. James (the Kind of Techno, as some call it) and prog rock. They are pretty similar styles of music with one main difference – one being entirely electronic. Don’t know if he can play an instrument (wouldn’t be surprised if he can’t). I think he’s more of a programmer and an engineer than an actual instrumentalist.