Biblical Evil #1: Ritual Human Sacrifice

Ok Bob,
Here is my primitive and simple solution. As a father I would sacrifice myself before ever contemplating sacrificing one of my children. This is why we find god of the bible so abhorrent. If he is a father with giveth and taketh away without explanation is no father i want to spend eternity with. And by the way Bob God killed his own son not men the were just following the law. Its’ like one of my 5 kids did’t go with the others to rob the bank but I tell the child who didn’t commit the crime sorry you ned to pay the price for the others and i will have to kill you. But I won’t tell you I knew they were going to rob the bank and I could have stopped them but I would rather just kill you. What a wonderfull guy.

TPT
Bob is using the same strategy that the swindlers used on the emperor in the story of “The Emperors’ New Suit”
we are just to stupid (primitive) to understand, so we should just agree with Bob because we fear being labled as stupid. But we are the stupid children that god created so why would he not communicate in terms we can understand instead of playing mind games with us. We can see the Emperor is Naked and Bob can’t so who is the primitive one.

How useful is it to say so, if this deity exists?

You admit yourself that it isn’t presented as horrific, in order (it appears you’re saying) to ease into its proscription (an "easement"that spans the breadth of scripture and at which we never arrive). And I don’t view them as commands, merely license, while pointing out that there is never a (primitive) command not to. And speaking of proscription, I see you skipped over how proscriptions such as the 10 Commandments are an example of the primitive tactics you deride. This is more problematic than your not answering “the question”.

I’m not the one trying to rationalize, or justify, abominable acts of violence, human sacrifice. How do you know God didn’t command the Inquisition to commit those acts. They certainly claimed He did. You can’t justify one rationalization by pointing to another. And while I’m against it at any time, you appear to be an advocate for it as long as it’s commanded by God. But then you haven’t really said that. That would be primitive too I suppose. At least you can’t say my third option is primitive:

I, an agnostic deist, am a fundamentalist. And yes, there is only one answer to the question (which I do happen to know since I’ve been stating it over and over), is divinely sanctioned ritual human sacrifice evil?; to which I loudly proclaim it to be a resounding yes. It’s a question you continue to dodge.

Was I befuddled when I asked if the 10 Commandments are primitive? Maybe I was. I don’t know if it was me asking–or Him.

Thanks for the advice. But I did step back, finally started getting things into perspective and came to my senses 30 years ago, give or take. I was then, exactly where your are now. I’ve learned to recognize every double shuffle tap dance there is. I turned Pro 5 years ago.

Good point, and one I actually thought of at one time but it got lost in the shuffle of all the possibilities. :sunglasses: I may be a Pro, but still third string.

???

TPT and Companions,

there is no point in conversing with you because you don’t want to hear. And if you don’t speak with me, who else is listening?

Take Care

Who said I was?

I don’t see a difference.
In most religions where human sacrifice is performed; it is done in the idea of saving the people from the wrath of some deity, or to save the people from some horridness the deity is perceived to have control over.

Hi Bob,

I’m not sure it’s that no one is listening, it could be their perspectives may not be picking up on what you have to convey. I admit some of the topics you start don’t resonate with me responding to the subject. It’s not they aren’t important, rather my participation probably wouldn’t mesh up with what you are saying. Your posts are valued by me, but if I can’t give a response that would further the topic along, I would rather not muddy up the waters. I have found that some of my contributions to other’s topics aren’t anywhere in the ballpark, thus spoiling the continuity.

What are the religions that practise these sacrifices?

There are no major religions that practice human sacrifice today.
That may not always be the case, but for now, it is.

That said, some minority religious groups in the world still participate what has become a taboo.
You can read the most highlighted mentions of such on Wikipedia’s notable accounts of modern era human sacrifice.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacr … _sacrifice

However, if you are wondering what older than modern era religions practiced human sacrifice, then I would easily start at the Mayan’s and then move East and North from there and you’ll find human sacrifice nearly everywhere in human history abundantly.

It’s so prevalent in occurrence; thought not often the majority as it was in Mayan (hence their popularity); that rather than question the validity of human sacrifice (which obviously we are not kosher with in our modern society; nor is it likely to be so any time soon to our minds), we should be questioning exactly what, in human nature, is aided by human sacrifice; what is the biological and psychological gain that inherently found refuge in the cultural design and expression of killing another human being, taking their life and energy by decree of man’s own hand instead of by the natural forces or battle?

I would venture the thought that we don’t see nearly the same connection and prevalence of human sacrifice today because we do not live close to the edge of communal death nearly as easily and drastically as the human’s that live long ago in times where human sacrifice was openly embraced, in moderation or gluttony, by some cultures.

And I would further venture the thought by adding that it is quite possible that because of their incredible fragility of community survival in regards to existence, human sacrifice was psychologically easily grasped by some as it was a means of taking control of what mattered the most; life.
They chose when and how the life of a member of their community would be taken; not nature and not some outside threatening community.

They were powerful by comparison to other communities that did not have human sacrifice, because they, unlike the others, were capable of divinely deciding the fate of man in totality of their cessation of life.

This is a psychology that we can see alive today in human self-masochism.
Many that partake are doing so to take control of what they perceive is the only thing they have control over, and it allows them the sensation that they have some form of power in the world and in their life; over the say of what happens to them in their life where otherwise they feel they do not.

Today, this is seen as unhealthy because we have a myriad of means by which a person can take control of their own lives and we do not live so dire of a life in the modern era as to merit such desperate evocations of satisfaction with life.

However, in the past times of man; there have been such desperate times where the emotional well-being and will to pursue on was kept alive by relying on the sense of control that was the only available option for having control over the life of the community.

Do I think it’s kosher?
No.
Would I participate?
No.
Do I think it’s incredibly sick and foreign?
Yes.

Do this mean that it is for those that have done it for all of man’s history?
No; obviously not.

I don’t think that there are any minor religions that practice human sacrifice, either. For one thing, it is hard to believe that anyone today believes that human death achieves anything positive of a religious nature. For another, there can hardly be any country in the world that would not account such a practice as murderous and subject to legal process, with severe consequences.

One therefore wonders quite why this topic should be of concern. If there is concern, one might consider non-religious factors, or factions, rather than religious ones. It is possible that, in past times, populations under economic stress relieved that condition to some extent by killing, and this was ritualised in order to make the process seem easier for those doing the killing, and indeed to make the process less disagreeable, even welcome, for victims. In modern times populations have arguably relieved this stress more radically, and with less euphemism, by simple genocides, those of Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler (and perhaps Napoleon of his own troops) being the most notable. Human sacrifice is very arguably not, at base, a religious phenomenon, but an economic one.

However, the question concerns alleged historic ritual sacrifice of humans mentioned in the Bible. There is no such event anywhere mentioned in the Bible, except where condemned outright- Deuteronomy and Leviticus expressly forbid this practice. There was a contemporary practice of some, from N. Africa through the ME to the Indus Valley, to sacrifice children to a god or gods, probably to relieve crisis situations, such as war or starvation by drought. It was this ritual practice that Abram was probably very familiar with from his country of origin, and he may not have thought the command to sacrifice his son so very strange; this is what provides context for the event on Moriah. Genesis states that he was tested, and this was, we may suppose, have been with regard to his faith; and his faith was that through Isaac, the promised son of a couple over childbearing age, he would be the father of very many. The text tells us that God already knew that Abram was justified (held to be righteous) because of this belief- but Abram himself did not know it. It was only when he discovered his knife in his hand that he realised that he really had faith in his god. The theme of justification by active faith is the distinctive message of the Bible, and this event has no connexion with the ancient practice of human sacrifice, except as outmoded social context. The substitution of a ram for Isaac had practical value in establishing that only animals henceforth be killed, and allegorical value that adds to the Biblical message of substitutionary atonement- one of the intended consequences of which is that people will not be killed, for any reason. This is quite the reverse of the intention supposed in the OP.

The Bible reports that many, such as Amalekites and Canaanites, were killed by Israelites, and Egyptians by God himself, and another message of the Bible is intended here. The Bible’s premises are that there is an existence beyond this one; and that it is a permanent one. Moreover, the condition experienced in the permanent one is contingent upon decisions taken in this one, and may be welcome, or the reverse. It therefore makes sense to stimulate the realisation of this situation, and if people have suffered and indeed died to that end, it should cause no surprise. So, if the rapid despatch of Amalekites and Canaanites has a purpose, it is to show people today that there is much worse experience than a quick physical death, or even a slow one. While the Bible deity forbids murder, personal violence of any sort, or even hatred, it allows for execution of criminals (and perhaps warfare, too) and this can be taken as warning of an even more defining ‘legal process’ than obtains in this experience.

Certainly Jephthah was involved in warfare against the enemies of Israel, whose moral stance was often an irritation to its neighbours. Jephthah promised that, in return for victory, he would sacrifice whatever emerged though the gates of his dwelling. He probably envisaged an animal, a dog coming to meet him. It is clear from the text that he was much distressed that his daughter emerged, anyway; no intention to sacrifice any human can be enforced from this event. Certainly, here was no ritual, because no precedent existed (and this awful event certainly created no precedent); the event was ‘happenstance’, an accident that may have been used by a deity to make a point. The daughter died, but her memory did not die, which had the effect of reminding Israelites of the defeat of their enemy in battle, by which they themselves survived. Again, there is allegorical significance in the death of an ‘innocent’ in exchange for the lives of the not-so-innocent, and if that allegory helps to save souls, the death of the body of the daughter is justifiable, in Biblical terms; and it may be that the daughter will fully agree.

There was no ritual involved in the death of Jesus, reckoned to be truly innocent- and it was no accident, either. The Biblical view is that Jesus was not, in the present context, human, but divine- so we have the deity willingly dying, without any human intention to offer sacrifice; so not a single word of ‘ritual human sacrifice’ can be said to necessarily apply in this case. A more apt description could be ‘deicide’. Now if the creator, the creator of morality via the creation of the cosmos, decides that he will take the blame for the evils of his creation, which part of that creation can protest?

There was nothing you said that I didn’t consider honestly and respond to. There were at least two instances where you did not do the same.

For the same reason that all of the false foundations for living should be of concern. If they are not rational, then we are made irrational. The Bible is held up as the Holy Word of God, and we’ve seen very clearly here the irrational mental machinations (excusing ritual human sacrifice) that people will go to in order to maintain that illusion. If you can justify that, then there is no depravity which can’t be excused if we just attribute it to God.

“I was just following orders.” = “God told me to.”

So why is Christianity usually the only religion that comes under scrutiny?

Why this offensive phrase ‘false foundations’?

Hello TPT:

— Today, human sacrifice is held nearly universally to be to be evil at least if not Satanic, so what is human sacrifice to God doing in Bible? There are three examples.
Most people know about Abraham who was told to sacrifice his son, Isaac, but was stopped at the last minute. Why was he told to do it in the first place, giving the impression that such a thing was acceptable, and why didn’t Abraham tell God to take a hike. Not only was it ritual human sacrifice, but he was told to sacrifice his own son.
O- At the time this was written the practice of human sacrifice had been observed or performed by hebrews, but the CURRENT practice was the sacrifice of animals, not of people. But, like much of the rest of the OT text, everything is being given an origin, including the reason for why animal sacrifice instead of human sacrifice. I am sure that the hebrew people were exposed to human sacrifice from other religions around Canaan, and that just as they may have had proponents for Ashera poles, they probably aslo had proponents for human sacrifice. Human sacrifice however, at the time, was not seen as an evil.
A sacrifice is to give a gift to God in return of something else. It was practiced throughout the world. To identify it as a clear evil is a projection of our modern mores onto an ancient custom.
The writers sought to tell the tale as to why hebrews would only sacrifice animals instead of humans…it wasn’t because it was bad, but that it was hard for man. To sacrifice a child, one’s only child even, is the hardest thing one can do in devotion to God and thus at the same time, the highest gift one can bestow upon God. The reason Abraham was asked for the life of his only son is simply to test his claim of total obedience to God. It is a test because it is hard to do. But once Abraham demonstrates his faithful willingness to follow God, it is accorded to him, and as with all else, to his entire progeny, and a substitute is provided. Killing bulls and rams, the finest of their kind of course, is therefore a suitable sacrifice for God, their God, it is pleasurable for Him and thus human sacrifice is not needed by God, their God.
That said, the OT shows how their enemies did sacrifice children to gain their gods to intervene on their behalf, but as it is an enemy action, this practice is given another negative spin.

— The least known example is Jephthah in Judges 11:29, who makes an oath to sacrifice (what turns out to be) his daughter if he wins a battle, which he does–and he did sacrifice her. Some people try to excuse this on the grounds that the event was not presented as neutral and/or not being what God wanted. We’re talking human sacrifice here. Is there room for neutrality? Why isn’t it presented as the great evil it is, not in matter-of-fact language? And why doesn’t God intervene as he did by aiding Jephthah in the first place.
O- It was Jephthah’s vow. He was not obliged or required, as Abraham’s was. It was his own zeal that made his daughter’s death a necessity, and again, the text does not give it a positive spin. The moral of the story seems more to be, like in David’s stories, about the folly of human kings and how this leads them into sin and suffering. By his zeal, then, is this, by-mistake, human sacrifice even possible. In this case human sacrifice is not promoted because it is the result of a mistake.

— But the real cultural, mass hypnotic blindness is to the human sacrifice of Jesus as a salvific exchange for our sins. Yes, this is almost surely a dogma adopted by Paul and back-filled into some of the gospels, but if the Bible is the Word of God, how can it be excused?
O- WHAT needs to be excused!!! The death of Jesus? Life and death are the same to the Omnipotent God. He breathes life into a mound of dust and brings back Jesus at His own discretion. The sacrifice is not the end of existence of Jesus, but the end of one mode of existence. This is the theological background that Paul operated in.
What was consequential in Jesus glorification was not the spillage of his human blood, but the obedience of Jesus even into death. Jesus succeded where Job did not.

— How could it remain there for 2000 years? It couldn’t, especially when we consider that there is only one way for the remission of sin, through heart changing repentance. Ironically, this is what Jesus and his partner, John the Baptizer taught.
O- Very well. Then Jesus’ death was a true evil, wouldn’t you say? Meaningless and without purpose, for it added nothing to our condition. Why in fact even have “Christianity” if what was taught by Jesus as well as the Baptist is nothing but straight judaism?

Do you not consider irrationality to be a false foundation.

Yes, Christianity is usually the religion discussed (although Judaism is just as involved in this discussion if not more so), because it is the most prevalent among the posters here, and I, being a former Christian, am most familiar with it. But I often throw in a qualifier, or just cut to the chase, and express my disdain with any revealed religion. The subject here is especially applicable to Jews and Christians among the major modern religions. Of all the barbaric practices of Islam, that doesn’t appear to be one, but if you want to include its institutionalized pedophilia or slavery, well, just wait.

Why do you continue to side-step the question about why Jews and Christians continue to overlook the divine sanctions of this practice.

Almost always. Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, all seem to get special treatment. Now is that because it is particularly irrational, or because it is particularly rational? Is it because it is undemanding, having lower standards than other religions, or is it because it demands more from its followers, and raises more objections from non-followers?

None of the above.
Asked and answered.

Perhaps.

Follow that wiki link I provided.
There are minority cases that exist spiritually still today.
And they are prosecuted where possible commonly.
This prosecution, however, does not cease the action entirely.

In regards to the Biblical Human Sacrifice citations; they are being brought out without context.

The story of Jephthah is indeed a warning against Zeal as he openly states whatever he sees first; expecting to be firstly greeted by his flock, which should be roaming; but is instead first greeted by his kin.
This is a parable about being “careful what you wish for” in regards to your Zeal; to not loose your judgment of sound decision in your excitements and rejoice lest sorrow befall you for your faulty decisions.

This is a constant discussion in the early Hebrew culture throughout the Bible and Torah; the maintaining of one’s conscience, consciousness, awareness, judgement, and reason.

The case of Abraham is regarding the devotional level of one’s faith.
The story serves to show that each should be to this level; ready to lay their most prized property; indeed, their proper future, on the line for their faith; for what they believe; but that at the same time horribly torn and sorrowful to have to do such a thing if one actually had to.

This is important for the regards of security of the community, as it is a discussion that the sanctity of the betterment of the community is worth more than an individual lineage; so in this regard, one should not withhold their first born from being a sacrifice for the betterment of the community in whatever manner they are called upon to give of themselves; most often battle.

So essentially, it’s a point of still valuing the life of that child of yours; that heir, but accepting that it is not your’s to own over the betterment of the community/will of God (these last two concepts are synonymous).

To the early Hebrews, the right to give and take life was God’s, because God was the “Great Breath”, and the “Great Sound” from which all life on Earth; indeed Earth itself; was granted.

It was not for man’s right to decree or take control of when life was to be or not to be.
It was only through command from God that the Hebrew culture asserted the taking of any life.

Human sacrifices of neighboring areas was seen as foul to their mind because it violated the authority of God’s right to decree over when life is and when life is not; which, as I stated before, is one of the cardinal satisfactions of human sacrifice to begin with.

There is no account in the Bible whereby a socially condoned and rejoiced Human Sacrifice is performed by the Hebrews therein described.

At every case where killing takes place of children and women; it is by decree of God to the Hebrews as a show of wrath to those that oppose God’s will.
Even if you remove God from this; it boils down to the synonym; the people’s will; the Hebrew’s will.
Basically…“Don’t F$^&^ with us Mother F^&@#$!”

Which makes sense considering their layout.
They had quite a lot of odds stacked against them for survival, and look…they still exist today!
We can’t say that about the Persians now can we?

The Hebrews were resilient, and part of that resilience was their shear fierceness in battle and siege.
They literally killed anyone and everyone in a city they would take over with only very few of the population left to slavery or, in rare cases, to be taken as wives.

Many other cultures would enslave and rule the Cities they would take over; they would not kill the population because they wanted to rule that population.
The Hebrews, on the other hand, showed dangerous abandon constantly to those around them by purely killing nearly everyone with what seemed little regard.

They did this for their betterment of their community as they saw it from their perspective, which is synonymous with God’s will from their perspective.

This, in part, is why they survived where many other groups of people perished with even more favorable odds than the Hebrews had.

That link seems to indicate that actual sacrifices are very rare and are given due legal process and treated as murder when they occur. But even if some go undetected, it hardly seems relevant to a thread whose title begins with ‘Biblical Evil’.