The guys that bugged Israel with the boat are a bunch of spoiled babies who were bored. It was like they said, since we are bored and don’t feel like watching TV, I wonder who can we bug to get a little action, a little excitement in life ? Why not Israel ? Since they have nukes, they have been fighting Palestine for 50 years, they have Iran that wants to nuke them off the face of the earth, what better target ? They will surely get mad if we bug them there so let’s go for it.
This is why the people who mind their own business and stay at home and watch TV are the best people in the world: they are not trying to trigger the third world war. And the spoiled brats, the idiotic spoiled babies call themselves “pacifists”. What did they expect ?
If you want to take sides and get involved in the thousands of idiotic conflicts around the world, you will have alot of fun and excitement. And risk getting killed, but since your life is useless and boring anyways it doesn’t matter. Conflicts can’t ever be solved, the fight defines the conflicting parts, they are their fight and their fight defines them.
Take the case of Israel and Palestine: if they had any half brain at all they would have left the “holy” land decades ago, the land is the devil’s playground. There are continent sized countries that are rich and full of possibilities from the USA, to Canada, to Australia to parts of Latin America (Argentina, Brazil), but they decide to keep on fighting for that little piece of crap of land and their fake GODS. They will never finds a solution because they don’t want to, because they are defined and define themselves only according to their stupid little idiotic fight, and their stupid idiotic past of who did what and who is to blame for what. What a bunch of losers …
I don’t know know about all of that, but given the tone of this thread I’ll throw in an idea that I still think is brilliant.
Adam Corolla Came up with a nice little plan to solve two problems with one move. The US works with Isreal and moves all of the jews out of the middle east and installs them into Mexico. Upon completion of this plan, two things happen. First, the middle east goes conflict free for about 10 days, until the people over there can find someone else to kill. Second, the jews go into action and start cleaning up Mexico of all the drug lords and start building deli stands that you can safely buy from.
the guy who came up with the word Zionism (sorry reference goes to google) said that the jews should make a nation in argentina instead of israel, because people already lived in that area of the ottoman empire at the time. this is like 1880.
so what the heck are these churchies doing in israel? i mean why even move in there? turkey said they do not want a massive foreign immigrant population disrupting their existing population in that area. I mean, sure, england plowed over the ottoman in ww4 in 1919, but why would that entitle israelis to… anything?
maybe the fact that america literally employed post ww2 nazis to train multiple right wing death squad militias throughout south america (including, of course, proposed jewish settlement countries/settlements like argentina/venezuela ca.1960) had something to do with it. oh yeah i went there.
Please never hurt any israelis. you will only incur the unspeakable and unending wrath of satan. he just does not stop. no violence please. never.
there are two responses to that, Future Man, maybe three
the holocaust
you are an anti-semite
the Torah promised
go ahead, just try to get around those - just try, i dare you. it’s an ideological blockade more impermeable than any seige of Gaza could ever hope to be.
Even assuming that two religions hating each other could finally find an uneasy peace, it is about land for expansion. Israel is a crowded place, and the West Bank is the place for expansion. Their unwillingness to give up the land grab under the guise of “security” will continue to drive the constant war. That the Palestinians continue to provide the excuse for more “security measures” just pours gas on the fire.
Religion is a powerful force in the creation of chaotic violence. Reason loses every time. One only has to look at the history of the “Irish problem” to see how religion can utterly destroy any commonsense rationality.
The fact that Israel is being held up to such infinitely higher standards than any other nation is due to one fact alone - they do not bother to falsely justify their politics. What you see is what you get.
This is a very sad situation. If only Israel could have honored the 1967 boundary agreement instead of wanting to push the Palestinians out.
When human rights violations are this horrible and egregious, the whole world sympathizes with the victims no matter what the complexities are. That is only right, but this will not be an easy problem to solve.
Higher standards? What higher standards? The Western powers shoved the jews into Palestine rather than leave them in their own countries. First mistake. It would be unreasonable to blame the Israelis for defending themselves, but the displaced Palestinians had a justfiable reaction as well. If you wanted to create a 100 years war, we couldn’t have designed a better one. But that aside, it is, and always has been, about the land. Both sides use religion to justify what they are doing. Israel has used every conflict to justify land expansion and now you have Israeli West Bank settlers claiming that they won’t leave because god “gave” them the land. The Palestinians continue to refuse to acknowledge the right for jews to live and in their violent attacks give the Israelis the excuse for further repression in the name of “security”. There are no higher standards in the middle east. The neighboring countries all talk peace, but feed the conflict to deflect dealing with their own issues. It’s a lose-lose mess, and until the oil runs out, the rest of the world will do nothing substantive to resolve the problems.
If it is what you see is what you get, then it is ALL ugly and both sides need a good whack up along side the head, but who will do that? Certainly not us. As long as we need oil, we’ll continue to wring our hands and say tsk tsk, and continue doing nothing.
First of all there’s no oil in Israel or Palestine. So I don’t get your point. Are you saying the Israelis are treating the Palestinians so well because America has to avoid war with Saudi Arabia and Iran? That seems to be the only argument you could be making here, which of course you’re not because it’s nonsense.
By higher standards I mean that Israel is blamed for doing in miniature what serious western powers are doing and have been doing forever on a much larger scale. The bigger the power, the dirtier it’s hands. It’s just that Israel doesn’t lie about what it’s doing - if only because it can’t.
You’re right that the Israelis think God gave them their lands. And they;re also fully realistic about the predicament this puts them in. Consider this quote by David Ben Gurion.
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
Israel is one of the few countries I like in the region - for the simple reason that, whereas it kills a lot of people, it does not kill it’s own. Considering of course that the Palestinians, whereas living in the state, are not Israelis. And they do kill their own, so they’re a different type. Hamas just refused to accept the humanitarian goods passed through by Israel for the reason that it was tainted with blood. Hilarious. Yeah they’re looking out for their people.
i don’t think Israel is held to higher standards, but that aside, the fact that “what you see is what you get” doesn’t put them in the right - nor does it make the whole concept underlying their occupation of Palestine any less stupid - nor does it cause the seige of Gaza to magically make strategic sense - even from the point of view of Israel’s own interests.
I understand that there are complexities. And i understand that these are not easy problems to solve. But Israel’s behavior only makes the situation all the more complex and difficult. Call me a monday morning quarterback if you want, but what they have been doing is just plain self-defeating (not to mention ethically egregious, as you’ve said).
I so agree. Emotions are running very high on this issue. If the USA continues to protect and defend Israel in light of such serious human rights violations, it will do so as a state much weakened in the estimation of the world community, I think.
You fail to see the reality of politics. Which is fine. You’re not playing a part in it, I assume.
You say their occupation of Palestine is stupid - I wonder, where do you live? Do you not live in occupied territory?
You probably fail to see the reality of justice as well. One mans laws is another mans crime. Perhaps you can try to step beyond the moral lessons you’ve been taught as a child. They rarely apply to politics.
What would make strategic sense is to prevent Iran from developing their bomb, and for the western countries to unequivocually back Israel on that course of action. What would make sense is for Jordan, which is 80- percent Palestinian but without Palestinian government, to let in Palestinians from Gaza, instead of sitting back and helping Syrian and Iran to throw oil on the fire.
And what would make sense is for intellectuals of western countries to look at the death and slavery their economies are causing all over the world - and do something about it - , instead falling victim to the ancient spasm of looking across the border for distraction.
There would be a whole bunch of things that would make sense - like thinking with Israel on how to solve their problems, instead of pretending to be in their place and knowing it all.
If you happen to think Israel should be wiped off the map - that that would solve the problems in the middle East, you’re entitled to your opinion - but just say it straigth out, and don’t try to at the same time have intelligent thoughts on their behalf.
i’m not invoking justice i’m invoking a rational picture of a world in which i would prefer to live - i assume you also have one of those, which is why you have opinions about things like Israel in the first place.
and sure, we all live on land that was occupied at one time or another, but, no, I do not live in a place where large portions of the world hotly contest my right to be there.
Israel makes a habit of sleeping in a nest of vipers and then complains when it gets bitten - that’s just dumb
now as for their self-interest: if you choose to sleep in a nest of vipers, it is better not to provoke said vipers any more than your presence amidst them already does - and the seige of Gaza is an added provocation (even if it was not intended as one), as was the invasion of Lebanon, and as are the settlements. All self-defeating. Now if you want to say they are politically expedient in some ways, then sure - but that doesn’t make them strategically viable for the long term welfare of the state - which i assume is the goal of most Israelis.
The political world is a nest of vipers, no matter where you go. Jews just have found their place in it, and are now dealing with the challenges of a new sate.
They will have to remain tough and aggressive until the Arab world comes to terms with Israels existence. If you compare this to the first centuries of other nations, it’s nothing exceptionally problematic.
And the errors of military judgment of Israel are quite modest, if you compare it to those of Rumsfeld, for example. The big question remains - do they let Iran develop the bomb.
I think Zionism should be pursued to it’s ultimate consequence - the rebuilding of the temple.
I am not saying that the Al Aqsa should be torn down - I’m saying it has to be renovated.
There is no way out of the conflict, but a religious one -
the mystical feeling of union, of mad courage in the face of Earthly adversity is the cause of it all, and from that the only possible revaluation of will have to be forged, be posited - a further meaning must erupt from the purest mindset, the most courageously merciful one.
i think continued aggression will simply make it all the less likely that the Arab world will ever come to terms with Israel’s existence. Israel is surrounded and outnumbered by their enemies - their best option at this point is to try to diminish the conflict, not incite more. Allow the Palestinian state to emerge and provide access to Jeruselem. There is simply no room in the Middle East for imperial powers - and those Israel would seek to dominate are simply too numerous, too crafty, too well supported and too furious to be quashed - Israel needs to learn the lessons of Rumsfeld’s failure, and the Soviet’s failure before him. They should withdraw to the old borders, hunker down and wait for the climate to shift - they are powerful enough to do that and survive, but they are not powerful enough to win an all out Jihad against all of Islam. The fact is, no one can effectively stop Iran from developing the bomb, and once it is developed, Israel will no longer be in posession of the trump card - especially if they continue alienating their allies and isolating themselves.
Attempting to pursue a divine mandate to it’s ultimate consequence will result in inevitable self-destruction - this is as true for Israel as it is for Hamas, the Taliban and George W. Bush. The days of religiously inspired imperialism are done - the world is simply too crowded for that.
Aggression is always necessary - be it in business or politics - Israeli aggression is a reflection of the pressure that is being put on them
But their aggression should be more business like, smarter - anything that reeks of ethnic cleansing must (of course) stop.
Agreed, but on certain conditions.
I think that Islam is an imperial power. And there’s plenty of space for it.
Which old borders? They’ve already made concessions, with another wave of aggression as a result. I disagree that passivity is the solution.
Why is that a fact?
If it’s the Toraic divine mandate, then I think you’re right. Equally if the muslims pursue their Islamic mandate. The two will have to reconcile. And I am claiming this is not going to be a matter of passivitty - new materials, be they physical or spiritual, are forged in great pressure and heat.
The energy is there - it’s a matter of handling it with skill and design.
It seems that this day has come and gone without even some consideration from Israel. It’s not so much the Arab world that can’t suffer the existence of Israel, but Israel cannot accept the Arab world.