born again, or magical thinking

V-OutOfTheWilderness · August 8, 2012, 3:05pm

I came out of a Christian cult that does this in spades.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/watchman-nee-witness-lee-book-tocs.cfm

I’ll be damned if I’m gonna fall for amateurs …

phyllo · August 8, 2012, 3:21pm

Words are able to describe everything. At some point, you have to let go of the words and just experience.

James_S_Saint · August 8, 2012, 4:15pm

So you are saying that we should employ professional devices to convince you?
Let me give you a clue. If I did that, you would never know it was me… and would be pretty certain that it wasn’t.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone is trying to convince you of something with any grand passion or concern. My position is merely one of separating the innocent from the guilty. What you do afterward is up to you… and “them”.

See if maybe you can glean a little of the situation from this post concerning evolution and purpose [of Life];

James S Saint:

Peter Kropotkin:

This question of as you say, “worshiping the species” only occurs if you actually worship
the species.

One is “worshiping” when they promote something to the highest priority.

Peter Kropotkin:

This abyss of having no purpose due to the only function of humans
is to procreate has dogged humans for about 150 years or the same amount of time
that existentialism has been around and there is a reason for that. the creation of meaning
and purpose has been the problem for our modern times. Life is meaningless and purposeless that much has been clear and yet ignored by the multitude.
.
.
.
I too struggle with this idea of creating a philosophy that accepts our current position of
our meaning and purpose is in procreating. Much brighter minds then mine have struggle with this
problem.

Let me see if I can convey the situation to you and perhaps adjust the mental blindness of which you speak.

When it becomes deeply ingrained into the mind that a specific thing has a specific quality and the mind seeks that thing, it inherently seeks that quality. Not finding that quality, it determines that the something doesn’t really exist. Thinking that it doesn’t “really” exist, it then feels free to invent something close and use that as the only form of the something that it originally sought.

When seeking the famed “Purpose of Life”, people invariably seek the awesome. Of course the purpose of life must be awesome. Everyone knows that. One knows when they have found something awesome because it over shadows all else. It fills their otherwise noisy meaningless life with inspiration and momentum to pursue. But there is a cause of their state of meaningless quazi-death, a cause that itself has nothing to do with the purpose of life, but rather distractive notions that are not suited to that purpose of life.

People are inspired into distraction by the awesome. Very many things can be very awesome, none of which have anything to do with that purpose of living. So what happens when they seek the awesome that will quail the noise of random distractions and give direction to their mind and heart? They seek the greater awesome, the greater awesomeness than all of the others. But what if the purpose of life just isn’t that awesome?

By seeking an immense awesomeness that isn’t there, thinking it to be the sign of that purpose of life, they conclude that such a purpose must not exist. Seeing only things that are not all that awesome from their perspective, they cannot discern one from another. They all seem equally unimpressive.

This is in fact the story of the “Original Sin”, that inherited error that once begun, infects endless generations with a blindness due to them expecting and seeking awesomeness and the power to persuade others through distractions of the awesome; lustful presumptuous blame-shifting, credit grabbing, myth inventing, mystery promoting, without which no power can be gained because no one can discern or adhere to anything less.

How would you find the purpose of life if you knew that it was not greatly impressive? How would you distinguish it from anything else? How would you verify that your final choice was accurate/“scientifically falsifiable”?

When something gets exaggerated so as to impress more people, that something gets lost. Science promoters today go to extreme lengths to mystify Science and promote its awesomeness. They use every trick they can come up with so as to make it seem so much more a brighter light than anything else - all for the good cause, of course. They make Science into a religion of faith and awesomeness. But no matter how awesome something is, it eventually becomes the common and mundane. What then? Look for Science on the internet today and you find almost nothing but exaggerations and mystical proposals, almost no actual science at all. Real Science, despite its great usefulness, is pretty damn boring.

So in a future, I would expect a great many people to be saying, “Science is just a myth. They invented it just to usurp power from the people.” And they would have more than enough evidence to back their case.

My first complaint of Christianity was simply that they fell into the trap of using mysticism as a promotion tool. It wouldn’t matter how great the original idea was. Once you start that journey into mystifying and making something lustfully awesome, the truth of it gets lost. And then what do you have but people looking for a truth by the quality of it being awesome beyond the reality of it. They then declare that it must not actually exist. They cannot discern it from so many other things that seem just as impressive to them.

You can’t discern the truth of something by how impressive it is. So how do you discern it? And if you can’t answer that, and I’m certain that you can’t, can you legitimately claim that it doesn’t exist? Can you merely accept something that seems sort of close and proclaim to know anything at all?

You and “they” have been lost on that issue of the purpose of life merely due to being blinded by so many efforts to promote the awesomeness of everything else under the Sun. The lust of any one thing, blinds the mind to discernment of everything else. Thus people have been told time and time and time again, to remove the lusts in their lives so as to be able to discern truth. One cannot discern truth if they are lustfully wanting, Science entirely agrees. It is an issue of SNR - “Signal to Noise Ratio”.

What if the real purpose of life is equally as dull and mundane as merely “propagating the species” and yet something entirely different? And propagating is merely an aberrant consequence of such endeavor? What if the purpose of life is no more than simple water that could become no more than a delightful wine at best? When would that be sufficient for the addicted to power, drugs, money, magic, pride, ego, entertainment, or sex?

Logic leads one to the discernment, not emotional appeal or popular consent (not even of the Cardinals of Science).

The point being that as long as people are exaggerating every damn thing around you, even if you were to realize it, you still couldn’t discern the truth amongst the noise. And never be able to discern the exaggeration, glorification, or flat out deceit from the actual truth.

By asking the question, you do 2 things;
A) Ask to be convinced (hopefully honestly)
B) Spawn doubt in others who might be reading (the intent of most such posters)

In either case, I don’t consider it my “job” to respond to either.
You say that you were tricked once (maybe you were, maybe you have merely been tricked into thinking that you were tricked). I say that very, very, very many times, the people asking such questions have absolutely no intention of revealing any truth, but rather proselytizing their own deceit by way of implying that “they” have been lying or are delusional. So by your reasoning, I should simply declare that anyone asking such questions online are just playing a deceitful game and just ignore all questions from the liars and tricksters.

V-OutOfTheWilderness · August 8, 2012, 7:17pm

Kudos St. James. Thanks for presenting that discussion.

How is this for the purpose of our life : Water is always on the move. Even if you trap it in a jar, the moon’s gravity pull keeps water moving. Our body is made up of more than 50% water. So the purpose of our life is to keep water moving. We’re a water transportation system. So drink up, and pee out, and that’s the purpose of our life. Isn’t it grand?

But seriously St, James, I’m very tired of spiritualized answers. People turn to the spirit for answers when there are no other answers. Like Harold Camping after his predictions of the return of Jesus didn’t happen. He said Jesus came back in spirit.

When answers become spiritualized there’s no way to prove it true or not. So it’s a slight of hand trick to resort to spiritualizing answers,

And that’s why we spiritualize “my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.” Because there are no rational answers to such a statement.

If Jesus ever said such a ridiculous thing, which I doubt, then His norther was right to think Jesus was beside Himself, or tetched. It can’t be any more ridiculous then to say eat my flesh and drink my blood. If he meant that we should incorporate His teachings, then why wouldn’t He have said it outright, instead of using such cryptic ridiculous terms. Why would Jesus say something that makes Him seem nutty?

Unless, “In the beginning was the nutty word.” And Jesus’ flesh and blood was magic … to cannibals and vampires.

And today, believers go thru this silly practice of being cannibals and vampires. What a joke. These believers are tetched in the head. The Bible sure can make people crazy.

James_S_Saint · August 8, 2012, 8:04pm

V-OutOfTheWilderness:

How is this for the purpose of our life : Water is always on the move. Even if you trap it in a jar, the moon’s gravity pull keeps water moving. Our body is made up of more than 50% water. So the purpose of our life is to keep water moving. We’re a water transportation system. So drink up, and pee out, and that’s the purpose of our life. Isn’t it grand?

But seriously St, James, I’m very tired of spiritualized answers. People turn to the spirit for answers when there are no other answers. Like Harold Camping after his predictions of the return of Jesus didn’t happen. He said Jesus came back in spirit.

When answers become spiritualized there’s no way to prove it true or not. So it’s a slight of hand trick to resort to spiritualizing answers,

And that’s why we spiritualize “my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.” Because there are no rational answers to such a statement.

The problem is that you were raised thinking in materialistic terms, but you keep asking spiritual minded people to explain themselves. Their words and your words sound alike, but those people have only spiritual concerns in mind whereas you are thinking only in materialistically. But realize, when those scriptures were written, they were not trying to speak to YOU. Materialism didn’t even exist. So it is a bit silly to criticize their wording. And even more silly to conclude from your definitions of words that they were lying in any way.

Realize that “vampires”, “werewolves”, and so on are all just like those scriptures. They are references to behaviors/spirit, not physical entities. They have not been wrong. Their language has been usurped to represent physical things when that was never what they meant. Don’t confuse spiritual metaphor with material reality. And it is not illegitimate for them to claim that it is the behavior of a thing that is far more relevant than its physical form. They were not making excuses or hiding their manipulations. They were merely speaking differently than you do today. They were speaking to what they felt was far more important of a concern than what physical forms were present.

That discussion post goes along with my typical posting;

A Contemporary Philosophy

There is the ongoing cause of all that is (a.k.a. “The God”).
There is the order and chaos brought about by that cause (a.k.a. “The Universe”).
There is the adversary to every life (a.k.a. “The Devil”).
And there is You… an instance of life.
The rest is just noise…

Amongst all the noise there are many entities great and small, all vying for attention and ultimate influence – “God wannabes”. Some are mindless formations propagating through their circumstances. Some are forms of life, temporarily struggling to survive, not really knowing why and certainly not how, but merely presuming a purpose, need, and desire. Most all merely adding their bit to the noise.

Don’t sweat the noise.

The purpose that is inherent in all living things is to maintain and protect its inner harmony. Man learned that to do that requires that he obtain and maintain the harmony surrounding him. And from there, all of the insane efforts of the history of homosapian sprang forth as he attempts threats and false hopes in an effort to control all things.

All joy is caused by an inner perception of accomplishment of that harmony and hope (thus the continual effort). Such is the very make of the deepest devoted love, survival, and that known as “Heaven”. If you are looking for something to seek that has true meaning, seek that harmony both within and around you. It will be a full time occupation, don’t worry about that. The Buddhists call it spiritual enlightenment, “bliss”. But it is not a stagnate thing as many have been led to believe. Its momentum is what keeps and maintains it. Try it and you will see.

[size=150]Everything else you try will just be more noise upon yourself and others.[/size]

“SNR” in that pic is “Signal to Noise Ratio”

Also, from the thread Science and Religion;

James S Saint:

In Religion;
People report to you that someone has said and done a lot of things.
You don’t know that really happened, but you have faith in the reports.
The person suggested a theory saying that if you do X and Y, you’ll get Z.
You haven’t done it yourself, but it makes sense to you so you have faith that he is probably right.
They report that there have been witnesses to his demonstration.
You have never seen those witnesses, but you have faith that they existed.
You are a faithful believer.

In Science;
People report to you that someone has said and done a lot of things.
You don’t know that really happened, but you have faith in the reports.
The person suggested a theory saying that if you do X and Y, you’ll get Z.
You haven’t done it yourself, but it makes sense to you so you have faith that he is probably right.
They report that there have been witnesses to his demonstration.
You have never seen those witnesses, but you have faith that they existed.
You are a faithful believer.

See the difference?

Science was talking about the behavior of materials and has the state of technology to prove its case.
Religion was talking about the behavior of people and has the state of nations to prove its case.

.

Starting to get a bead on my perspective?

The problem is that it is almost entirely NOISE. You can’t discern truth from the noise. And you can’t filter the noise (make sense of anything) until you recognize the cause of the noise and compensate. In this case, that cause is primarily LANGUAGE and PRESUMPTION. So try not to be merely more of that cause.

None of the original founders were you enemies. But much like the nuclear weapon, the scientists weren’t out to kill anyone. What truths they find gets used and perverted. But that doesn’t change the truth of what they found.

phyllo · August 8, 2012, 10:24pm

He was nutty. Turn the other cheek, give away your cloak, the meek shall inherit, forgive seventy times seven. The rantings of a lunatic. Any rational person can see that.

Selah7 · August 9, 2012, 1:05am

Obe - sorry, I tried. You were alone for so long and I came to help and now it has ‘devolved’ into nothing resembling your original question. The Gospel is very easy to understand and that is all you need to be “born-again.” Look into it yourself, my friend. I have done all I could do here for now.

Selah7 · August 9, 2012, 1:27am

V, what is a christian cult? Whatever you came out of it wasn’t Christian.

V-OutOfTheWilderness · August 9, 2012, 6:41pm

Selah7+, you are not omniscient … and you obviously haven’t read Watchman Nee or Witness Lee and know nothing of their movements in China and America. Their movements require a life commitment to Christ and the Church … you would fit right in.

V-OutOfTheWilderness · August 9, 2012, 7:08pm

Everyone lies. And lies abounded back when NT books were being written. St, Peter was a liar. And we don’t know what in the NT books are lies and are truth. The evangelists clearly made things up, and put words into the mouth of Jesus.

One big lie is explaining things spiritually. We live in a physical world (they back then lived in a physical world). We don’t live and have our being in the spiritual world. We therefore know nothing of the spirit realm, and can only resort to guessing, and making shit up. And that is lying.

Orbie · August 9, 2012, 11:37pm

We may be forgetting one thing. Bishop berkeley’s view of the iimmateriality of the physical world, deserves another look. The sub atomic particles have been shown to be mostly space, and even the smallest particles exhibit wave-like behaviour. So, the difference between the physical world and the world of energy may be minimal or non existent. The spiritual energy of the logos may be the zero-point, where energy is not equalised spatially, but has a point, which has the black-hole analogy.

James_S_Saint · August 10, 2012, 12:02am

Is that the dogma of your new religion?

felix_dakat · August 10, 2012, 5:53am

V–

How can you know any of that with certainty? Maybe you know nothing of the spirit realm. That doesn’t mean that others don’t. You once thought you knew the spirit and now you don’t. Maybe you were right then and you are wrong now. Or maybe your right now, and those who think they know are earnestly wrong. To be earnestly wrong is not lying. Based on my observation many religious people seem to be earnest and not liars whether they are right or wrong.

V-OutOfTheWilderness · August 10, 2012, 9:26am

I guess my friend Ian is right. And you too. Both of you told me to put distance between myself and this Christian friend I made at al-anon. She lives her life by the Spirit, and has made a mess of her family and life.

On July 3rd last yr her son had a motorcycle accident and bashed his head against an Oak tree so hard that he pull the roots up. He actually died, but another rider gave him mouth to mouth until EMS arrived and kept him alive.

They flew him to a special hospital about 2 hrs drive from here, where he was put on full life support. Long story short after about a month they told her he had suffered such a severe brain sheer injury that she should unplug him and let him go.

But back in 2007 he had had a motorcycle accident and lost one of his legs from the knee down. And before they took his leg she went to Israel, cuz God told her to. And while in Israel God told her that He was gonna restore her son body, soul, and spirit.

So when she was told to unplug her son she wouldn’t, because of what God had told her while in Israel. After a few months they were able to unplug the breathing machine, but he was still a complete vegetable.

Long story short he had to be moved from the hospital to a Christian care center about an hr from her home, a nursing home, while still on a feeding tube and trachea tube for oxygen.

For awhile Medicaid was paying for physical therapy but withdrew it because of no progress. Now his muscles are deteriorating. He can’t talk, can’t walk, has to be turned every 2 hrs, and have his diaper changed.

So now, on Caring Bridge on the computer she asking desperately for prayer warriors to pray for his muscles to be restored by God. I read it and was heart broken.

It’s so sad. It’s been over 13 months and her son is still a vegetable. But God recently told her her son would be restored and would have a mission from God. She has lived at the hospital or the care center for 13 months. She’s estranged from her husband, who is a life long Christian but thinks she’s practicing witchcraft. And she’s not taking care of her younger son.

All thru this she says she’s so happy she feels like turning summersaults down the hallways, cuz God is going to be glorified by the miracle He’s gonna perform on her son.

She calls me frequently with all this stuff.

So maybe it’s making me crazy, and really down on the Spirit … and that’s why I’m being so hard on the Spirit realm. And why maybe I should put distance between her and myself.

Sorry folks for being such a sourpuss.

statiktech · August 10, 2012, 1:21pm

I also don’t understand all the talk about spirituality and ‘spirit realm’. I mean, I can’t be certain you didn’t play Monopoly with sasquatch on Mars, but it’s a fairly safe bet regardless of how sincere you may seem. I’m not claiming you are lying, but I’d think you’re deluding yourself.

statiktech · August 10, 2012, 1:44pm

V-OutOfTheWilderness:

felix dakat:

V–

We don’t live and have our being in the spiritual world. We therefore know nothing of the spirit realm, and can only resort to guessing, and making shit up. And that is lying.

How can you know any of that with certainty? Maybe you know nothing of the spirit realm. That doesn’t mean that others don’t. You once thought you knew the spirit and now you don’t. Maybe you were right then and you are wrong now. Or maybe your right now, and those who think they know are earnestly wrong. To be earnestly wrong is not lying. Based on my observation many religious people seem to be earnest and not liars whether they are right or wrong.

I guess my friend Ian is right. And you too. Both of you told me to put distance between myself and this Christian friend I made at al-anon. She lives her life by the Spirit, and has made a mess of her family and life.

On July 3rd last yr her son had a motorcycle accident and bashed his head against an Oak tree so hard that he pull the roots up. He actually died, but another rider gave him mouth to mouth until EMS arrived and kept him alive.

They flew him to a special hospital about 2 hrs drive from here, where he was put on full life support. Long story short after about a month they told her he had suffered such a severe brain sheer injury that she should unplug him and let him go.

But back in 2007 he had had a motorcycle accident and lost one of his legs from the knee down. And before they took his leg she went to Israel, cuz God told her to. And while in Israel God told her that He was gonna restore her son body, soul, and spirit.

So when she was told to unplug her son she wouldn’t, because of what God had told her while in Israel. After a few months they were able to unplug the breathing machine, but he was still a complete vegetable.

Long story short he had to be moved from the hospital to a Christian care center about an hr from her home, a nursing home, while still on a feeding tube and trachea tube for oxygen.

For awhile Medicaid was paying for physical therapy but withdrew it because of no progress. Now his muscles are deteriorating. He can’t talk, can’t walk, has to be turned every 2 hrs, and have his diaper changed.

So now, on Caring Bridge on the computer she asking desperately for prayer warriors to pray for his muscles to be restored by God. I read it and was heart broken.

It’s so sad. It’s been over 13 months and her son is still a vegetable. But God recently told her her son would be restored and would have a mission from God. She has lived at the hospital or the care center for 13 months. She’s estranged from her husband, who is a life long Christian but thinks she’s practicing witchcraft. And she’s not taking care of her younger son.

All thru this she says she’s so happy she feels like turning summersaults down the hallways, cuz God is going to be glorified by the miracle He’s gonna perform on her son.

She calls me frequently with all this stuff.

So maybe it’s making me crazy, and really down on the Spirit … and that’s why I’m being so hard on the Spirit realm. And why maybe I should put distance between her and myself.

Sorry folks for being such a sourpuss.

Don’t apologize man, you’re just speaking your mind. And, frankly, I agree with you. Many of the people in these 12 step programs bewilder me. Everything is attributed to God even to the extent that some fail to see the real beauty of the program - people helping people. This friend of yours needs a punch in the face.

V-OutOfTheWilderness · August 10, 2012, 2:24pm

Yeah, she’s headed up al-anon meetings for over a decade, can quote all 12 steps, but hasn’t really applied them to her life, cuz she’s too darn God crazy. It’s pitiful. I try to bring her down to earth, but can’t get thru to her. Everything is God to her, or the devil. To her God hasn’t made her life a living hell. The devil is doing it. Cuz she loves God, the devil is attacking her. She loves God more than her husband and kids. She can’t see that she’s driven them to drugs and alcohol with her craziness. Her religious condition saddens me as much as her son’s physical condition. She lives outside of reality.

The number 333 is her magical number, and she sets her watch to ring at 3:33 day and night, cuz that’s when God comes and talks to her. But she can’t figure out what God is saying. She calls me to help her figure God out. I tell her I don’t have a clue what God is saying or doing. Then she wonders if it’s Satan speaking to her. It’s confusion, and it’s harming her life big time, and the life of those that care for her. It’s destructive as drugs.

If I used her as an example of what it’s like to follow the Spirit, I’d run the other way. She bases it all on the Bible. It’s an example of how the Bible can make people crazy.

Arcturus_Descending · August 10, 2012, 2:31pm

Selah, that is not necessarily true. But it is sort of puritanical (not calling you puritanical) to think that one has to wait for one’s reward. Why is it that some of us think and feel that happiness and joy are negatives to be frowned on and suppressed/repressed. If someone believes in God and that God loves him/her, wouldn’t that someone also believe that God wants them to enjoy the blessings and gifts which have been given them - in the Here and Now ALSO - and not wait for the next world. I mean, if one can’t enjoy and appreciate them here (without doing harm to their self and others), how will one know it there to appreciate it?

it isn’t hedonistic or narcissistic to see life as having meaning and beauty in the Present Moment…and to live that. If you’ve read anything about Christ, you will see that he ALSO celebrated life. He enjoyed himself…he lived in the moment until that very moment which lead up to his dead…and then he at some point lived that moment fully albeit he did ask in a moment of weakness that his cup be taken away. But then he fully swallowed up that cup.

felix_dakat · August 10, 2012, 10:27pm

I guess my friend Ian is right. And you too. Both of you told me to put distance between myself and this Christian friend I made at al-anon. She lives her life by the Spirit, and has made a mess of her family and life.

On July 3rd last yr her son had a motorcycle accident and bashed his head against an Oak tree so hard that he pull the roots up. He actually died, but another rider gave him mouth to mouth until EMS arrived and kept him alive.

They flew him to a special hospital about 2 hrs drive from here, where he was put on full life support. Long story short after about a month they told her he had suffered such a severe brain sheer injury that she should unplug him and let him go.

But back in 2007 he had had a motorcycle accident and lost one of his legs from the knee down. And before they took his leg she went to Israel, cuz God told her to. And while in Israel God told her that He was gonna restore her son body, soul, and spirit.

So when she was told to unplug her son she wouldn’t, because of what God had told her while in Israel. After a few months they were able to unplug the breathing machine, but he was still a complete vegetable.

Long story short he had to be moved from the hospital to a Christian care center about an hr from her home, a nursing home, while still on a feeding tube and trachea tube for oxygen.

For awhile Medicaid was paying for physical therapy but withdrew it because of no progress. Now his muscles are deteriorating. He can’t talk, can’t walk, has to be turned every 2 hrs, and have his diaper changed.

So now, on Caring Bridge on the computer she asking desperately for prayer warriors to pray for his muscles to be restored by God. I read it and was heart broken.

It’s so sad. It’s been over 13 months and her son is still a vegetable. But God recently told her her son would be restored and would have a mission from God. She has lived at the hospital or the care center for 13 months. She’s estranged from her husband, who is a life long Christian but thinks she’s practicing witchcraft. And she’s not taking care of her younger son.

All thru this she says she’s so happy she feels like turning summersaults down the hallways, cuz God is going to be glorified by the miracle He’s gonna perform on her son.

She calls me frequently with all this stuff.

So maybe it’s making me crazy, and really down on the Spirit … and that’s why I’m being so hard on the Spirit realm. And why maybe I should put distance between her and myself.

Sorry folks for being such a sourpuss.

V–

Its a sad story, and who of us can say that we would not do similar irrational things if we were in your friend’s shoes? Still, she has rejected the real consolations of her family, church, doctors and you for the notion that the voice in her head is God. Somehow her pastor and other Christians around her have managed to retain faith without going off the deep end like she has. Apparently some kind of spirituality can be maintained while also staying grounded in the real consensual world. Your friend’s story does illustrate one form that magical thinking can take.