Bush and Blair=War Criminals?

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
21

It strikes me funny how one side will claim the absolute authority of the UN and the sanctions and restrictions it placed on Iraq, and in the same breath talk of how it matters not what the UN thinks because bush doesnt recognize them as an authority. Well which is it?

Im am no traitor, i am an american, and i love what my nation is suppose to be about. However, the war on iraq was a lie, it has been from the start. The CIA itself has shown doubt on all investigations of WMD, the US military proved in 1 weeks time that the Iraq military was Not a threat to the world. The blatant truth of why US troops were sent into Iraq is obvious to me. I will not elaborate on the exacts as it is shameful. However, i am quite embarrased at its success, and how easily it was for one nation to invade another soverign nation, and feel right in doing so. I wonder what the germans felt when they “liberated” the polish?

A large insurance comapny, a marketing conglomerate, a business maybe… A great nation in a position to make the world a better place and doing what it can to make life better for all, It most definately is not!

The US was founded on some very revolutionary ideas, most importantly the seperation of Church and State. The evils of the church were recognized as detrimental to a free society. The US must purposefully recognize a seperation of Business and State in the same spirit, lest we end up as the Romans who found out economy and creature comforts are not everything.

I live on a planet, not in a country.

22

Rhish,
I really enjoyed your post.

Rhish stated:

I have noticed the same myself. Ironically, I notice it not only in politics but in my personal life. It’s a matter of what is convenient for the person at the time. These people are the most untrustworthy, they don’t stick to any principles. They go with whatever best suits them at the time regardless of what it does to an institution or people. If everyone just went with whatever best suited them at the time there would be havoc.

Rhish stated:

It is definitely a mark of an honest and self-respecting individual to be able to say the above. I love what America and Canada are suppose to be about too, in fact I love all countries for what they’re suppose to be about in theory, but unfortunately such potential has not turned to actual…atleast not yet. I too felt quite uneasy about how easily America sent cruise missiles and then invaded Iraq.

Rhish stated:

Couldn’t agree more.

Rhish stated:

My sentiments exactly. In fact, it’s an opinion of mine that within my life time I will see the countries of the world merge into one.

What’s your take?

23

Gadfly of ILP:
"In fact, it’s an opinion of mine that within my life time I will see the countries of the world merge into one. "

do u honestly believe that? i find that idea to be very difficult to believe/achieve unless something monumental happens within the next few years. I’m not discrediting ur belief, i’m just curious as to how u believe that and how u think that it is going to happen?

rhish:
“The CIA itself has shown doubt on all investigations of WMD”

Really? i didn’t know that. That seems very unusual for the CIA to disagree wiv the president and what he believes.

"The US must purposefully recognize a seperation of Business and State "

That is a very intelligent statement and I completely agree wiv u

Logo:
“[on Bush]…they’re impeccably honest in their personal affairs, but when it comes to their beliefs, they make little distinction between the truth and what they wish were true. It surely doesn’t qualify them to be president, but it doesn’t make them evil.”

That’s a very true statement and i’ve met many people like that (idiots and christians mainly). They are in a way pig-headed and stubborn but i wudn’t say that makes them bad, just mis-led or ignorant in my opinion.
[/i][/b]

24

War criminals are those who violate international law. George W. Bush has made it quite clear that he is far to powerful to obey the rest of the world.

Benjamin Ferencz was a prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials for Nazi war crimes after World War II and has been available for a number of interviews. He said Dec. 12.2003 : “It’s a sad commentary when the president of the United States has apparently no knowledge or concern for international law. We said at Nuremberg that we would be bound by laws – that they would apply equally to all. But it’s a violation of international law to go to war without the approval of the [U.N.] Security Council when you are not under armed attack. The U.S. has violated that in its attack on Iraq, as well as other times. The Bush administration has repudiated the International Criminal Court, when over 90 nations want to carry on the legacy of the Nuremberg tribunals, but the administration is trying to cripple it in its cradle.”

Shalom
Bob

25

Good thing he’s scum or that would mean something.

26

cba1067950 wrote:

Now thats an original thing to say. Very easy way out of an argument.

It’s probably comparable to vomitting instead of saying “that isn’t my favourite meal”!

Bob

27

The following link might be of interest to this topic…

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle … 333995.stm

28

Except when you vomit you can’t say you were being sarcastic.

29

I think this is getting out of league. The idea here is:
In your opinion, should Bush & Blair be tried in court as war criminals.

Yes.

And lets not be fooled by Iraq, it wasnt as simple as blood for oil or world saftey of 9-11. It was an opening the US has waited for for a long time.
Maybe we haven’t seen it in the paper, but the US and Hussein have been at it for over a decade.

As for the genocide argument:
Who’s heard of the Balkans? How about Rwanda? Russia vs Chechnia? Syria?

WAYYY worse that Saddam, both in body count and potential for hostility.

And yes, we hated him AFTER we gave him all kinds of weaponry to kill Iranians.

30

Someone wrote this today, kinda made me giggle b/c he’s right.

31

Crafedog,
yes I honestly believe that within my life time I will see the countries of the world merge into some kind of a singular government. The league of nations was a first major step, the united nations carries on that step with some traversing needed - but overall, with the internet and with a higher understanding being implemented into subjects of a broad world context, not to mention the growing thorn of the environment and the continual drastic changes - all in all tell me that whether we like it or not we must begin to think as humans on an island whose resources are diminishing. If there is one thing I believe about human kind, it is that we are strangely capable of being able to put aside the greatest of differences when it comes to an understanding of a threat to the unitary vision of the world and its people.

How exactly it will happen is beyond my abilities. Though I do have some hypothesis on the topic. Primarily, I believe we will be forced to do something about it, whether it be unsustainable climate change, lack of land to grow a sufficient food supply, over polluted water and air system, dramatic extinction levels of animals that will threaten the ecosystem and our luxurious way of life - one or a combination of these on a drastic enough level will call for all countries to work together. Committies, junctions, companies, school, and think-tanks all over the world will have to come together and rationalize their way out of their own blunders. These small steps, in a span of 50 years; I believe will lead to a realization of the absurdity of borders, different measuring systems, different languages, and so on. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that different measuring systems will disappear and only one will be kept, but I believe that there will be heavy standardization of all things - with a rational use of those that aren’t standard as they are applicable to different situations. I think that English will become the standard language of the world, but I also think that French will be kept to enumerate upon love and the beauty of things, and so on. Economic systems will, I believe, become like borders…extinct except for the one standard. Cultures and customs will, like languages and measuring standards, become standardized although the other types will also be kept relative to ones beliefs and uses.

What’s your take?

32

i think (unless a miracle occurs) a meteorite or a war will wipe us out before we have a proper chance to achieve that.

by miracle i mean aliens coming down and teaching us all sorts of useful shit or by Jesus coming down and giving the world the kick in the arse it needs and to be frank if neither of these happen within the next 10 years (can’t say i’m holding my breath) then i think we’re fucked.

33

Bush and Blair, war criminals, whatever?

We’re all war criminals. Bush and Blair are just as unhappy and fucked-up as you. Jesus, they didn’t ask to be born did they?

An’ aren’t they playing their respective parts in this theatre of life in the best way they know how?

For chrissakes aren’t they, after all, trapped in their respective roles, no escape? Give 'em a break eh?

34

that has got to be the crappest philosophy i’ve ever heard in my life.

bush is an imbecile so he doesn’t care, he still thinks he’s right and has made no apologies and has no regrets on the subject so i think “unhappy” would be a poor description of him. “stupid” on the other hand…

blair is an even bigger idiot then bush because he followed him. it’s like the stupid leading the even more stupid.

so because they were born, we’re not allowed to judge them? the same would be said for hitler, idi amin, charles manson etc. because “they didn’t ask to be born?” sounds like an excuse a 14 year old would say.

“theatre of life”, “respective roles”, what a pile of shite that’s just lazy in trying not to take an opinion on the matter/understanding the people and also partial defense mechanism as you are not accepting the world for what it really is.

and how are we all war criminals by the way, i haven’t been able to figure that part out of your logic?

35

Crafedog

“that has got to be the crappest philosophy i’ve ever heard in my life.”

It’s probably the only philosophy you’ve ever heard in your life.

”bush is an imbecile so he doesn’t care, he still thinks he’s right and has made no apologies and has no regrets on the subject so i think “unhappy” would be a poor description of him. “stupid” on the other hand…”

You’re playing your aces far too early!

”blair is an even bigger idiot then bush because he followed him. it’s like the stupid leading the even more stupid.”

Man you are disgracing yourself in public!

”so because they were born, we’re not allowed to judge them? the same would be said for hitler, idi amin, charles manson etc. because “they didn’t ask to be born?” sounds like an excuse a 14 year old would say.”

You can do what the hell you like! But if you choose to judge others with such vehement bigotry and prejudice in your own heart then you merely condemn yourself, (and make not only a laughing stock of yourself in public - and a pathetic spectacle at that,) but also for those naives who watch your irresponsible behaviour in which you display the same sort of intolerance and ignorance and stupidity you accuse others of you set a thoroughly foolish example. And that makes you one selfish and immoral person!

”"theatre of life", “respective roles”, what a pile of shite that’s just lazy in trying not to take an opinion on the matter/understanding the people and also partial defense mechanism as you are not accepting the world for what it really is.”

I wont even bother to respond to that. I wont even call you an ignoramus. No I wont sink to that level.

”and how are we all war criminals by the way, i haven’t been able to figure out that part of your logic?”

Isn’t it money that makes the world go round? Do you live without money? Don’t wars cost money?

Don’t you know that all money is dirty money. Laundered money. As soon as it comes off the presses. But you are happy to live in a world where you can buy things with the same money that previously bought and sold weapons of mass destruction. Is that ethical? So what are you going to do? You’re trapped just as much a Blair and Bush!

And yet money is neither a good nor an evil but an indifferent. Likewise, war. But you are of the mistaken opinion that war is an evil thing. And other fools spout the opposite.

And you would also mistakenly speak of some people as evil and others as good!

The money, war, peace, men, you speak of are externals things. And you regard externals with admiration or disapproval. But what about you yourself? What are you doing about yourself? Instead of criticising others sort yourself out, that’s your business, your only business!

So what do you do? You waste your time gawping at television distracted by the latest ‘news’ believing in such things as Presidents and Prime Ministers and therefore you make yourself part of the problem. You choose that for yourself. Every time you listen to the ‘news’ you are allowing yourself to be deceived into believing lies. You brazenly conspire with yourself to dupe yourself.

(Whose ‘news’ is it anyway? Who ‘owns’ the ‘news?’ Why do we call it ‘the’ ‘news?’)

You are anti Bush and Blair; others are pro the pair.

There’s no difference between you, you are opposite sides of the same coin – you are the same bunch who just love to fuck around in other people’s business while you neglect your own dilapidated house as it slowly falls to ruin.

Some of you buy, some sell, all of you have worthless opinions on every conceivable topic. And you all have the same attitude to life as war criminals. They are no better, no worse. And you are no better and no worse than Bush or Blair.

If you wanna read some philosophy boy, you came to the right place!

36

"It’s probably the only philosophy you’ve ever heard in your life. "

no it’s not the only philosophy i’ve ever heard of, i’ve been taking a philosophy class for the last few years at university, so to say the least i know a few philosophies and i can honestly that yours is definitely the crappest.

“You can do what the hell you like! But if you choose to judge others with such vehement bigotry and prejudice in your own heart then you merely condemn yourself, (and make not only a laughing stock of yourself in public - and a pathetic spectacle at that,) but also for those naives who watch your irresponsible behaviour in which you display the same sort of intolerance and ignorance and stupidity you accuse others of you set a thoroughly foolish example. And that makes you one selfish and immoral person!”
“I wont even bother to respond to that. I wont even call you an ignoramus. No I wont sink to that level.”

all you’re doing here is insulting me and being a hypocrite as you have not answered my question and have instead chosen to claim that my views are ignorant and wrong without any reasoning for those claims and have instead chosen to only insult me.

"And yet money is neither a good nor an evil but an indifferent. Likewise, war. But you are of the mistaken opinion that war is an evil thing. And other fools spout the opposite.
And you would also mistakenly speak of some people as evil and others as good! "

i never claimed that i believe war, bush, blair, even manson and amin were evil or good. i am a firm believer in the importance and necessity of war, i believe that Saddam should have been taken out of power but i dont like the methods/reasons that bush and blair chose in how to do it (as was the original topic matter). and this concept of claiming that all money is dirty money is poor as it is “indifferent” (as you say) so therefore it is money being used by those who are “dirty”. Money is just a means to an end and whether or not it is used to finance a war, purchase means to living or for personal pleasure is meaningless as it is only used by individuals for this reasoning. your connection between the need for money in being able to continue living and how that makes me a war criminal seems extremely weak.

“But what about you yourself? What are you doing about yourself? Instead of criticising others sort yourself out, that’s your business, your only business!”
“you are the same bunch who just love to fuck around in other people’s business while you neglect your own dilapidated house as it slowly falls to ruin.”

i’m improving my mind and way of living while learning at university and gaining friends and having interesting experiences as opposed to starting wars for weak/false reasons which is why i choose to judge bush and blair and have an opinion on those similar to them. and don’t criticise me by the way you hypocrite (prejudice as in trying to put me in one group even though you know nothing of my full opinon of the matter) as you should try to improve your reasoning/theories before you just resort to insulting someone in the future.

“Some of you buy, some sell, all of you have worthless opinions on every conceivable topic. And you all have the same attitude to life as war criminals. They are no better, no worse. And you are no better and no worse than Bush or Blair.”

why just because i have an opinion on the topic? so what you’re telling me is that i shouldn’t have an opinion on the topic and let them do what the hell they please?

“If you wanna read some philosophy boy, you came to the right place!”

and don’t call me boy you arrogant prick

37

first off, i would like to say that the person that started this whole debate is an ignorant moron. now that i have that off my chest let’s get to reason. say the taliban, al queda, or an iraqi-sponsored terrorist group flew a plane into a national symbol of canada. i doubt that your country would sit around with their thumbs up their bums and do nothing. well guesse what hotshot, that’s what happened to us here in american and we had the guts to do something about it. the thing that makes me so mad is when foreigners, yes even canadians, think they know what our leaders are doing and why. the liberal battlecry of “OIL OIL OIL” is one of an ignorant group of individuals who are doing nothing more than hopping on the left-wing political bandwagon. since when is taking out a war criminal (SADAAM HUSSEIN) worthy of earning YOURSELF the title of war criminal? that’s ridiculous. thanks to bush, the war on terror and iraq has saved hundreds to thousands of iraqi lives, simply by liberating the cities. while there are insurgencies, can you tell me any war that was not followed by post-war attacks on invading troops? no you can’t, because you didn’t think about your argument before you posted your idiotic remarks in the first place. unless you live here and know what our patriotism is like, don’t ever pass judgement on our leaders, and we won’t pass any on yours. EH?

38

Crafedog

Your last post is the proof I required

Thank you!

39

i’d pratically agree with everything bigdog just said (specially the annoying “it’s all about the oil” bandwagon that everyone who didn’t like Bush jumped on to) except the fact that there still has not been any clear evidence of ties with Iraq and Al-Qaeda (think i spelt that wrong) especially in the levels of holding weapons of mass destruction and having ties with those terrorists.

if the issue was about Bush being called a war criminal because of his attacks on Afghanistan then i would completely agree with you and this would be completely justified after September 11 but because of the fact that Bush’s main reasons for taking out Saddam were his links to the weapons and Al-Qaeda it’s a bit more difficult to justify. had Bush only claimed that his reasons (and only these reasons) to the american people/world/united nations for taking out Saddam was because he was a vicious dictator then there would be no issue but this claim has only appeared since there has been a distinct lack of w.m.d and Al-Qaeda links since the war began/finished.

Just to verify i think that Saddam should have been taken out but i believe that Bush should have the full co-operation of the U.N and the support of the Muslim countries who opposed Saddam/saw him as a threat (to keep it diplomatic and not be seen as an american invasion of the arab countries). unfortunately because Bush chose not to take this sort of method and dive straight in, it has caused some problems with his image and reasoning for going to war which is where the issue of being a war criminal and dis-regarding the views of the U.N comes from.

40

and yet you still haven’t answered any of my questions.