Can a Communist be an optimist?

[Jerry]

@Future Man

absolutely, consumers will lay down their hard earned money to literally buy shiny objects, or the same music theyve heard a million times, or a credit card that has a picture of nascar on it, or a car that comes with a computer, or whatever stupid pointless crap the tv shoves down their throats.

we can call them idiots and say the corporations are just doing what they can to make money. or we can condemn the corporations for taking advantage of idiots. do we condone the taking advantage of idiots? is that a fundamental part of capitalism? or just this corrupted monster that is in desperate need of repair? would capitalism ever work without taking advantage of stupid customers?

Oh, there’s just so much here I am tempted to respond to, but I am bound and determined to stay on topic rather than address such things as whether or not allowing a struggling entrepreneur/producer like myself to proceed unfettered by government’s chains or the claims of the collective might just be an act of altruism in and of itself. Or, all the subjective issues mentioned here. Besides, my concern is more about the various views of human nature in general terms, and not the narrower view of the “evil corporations” or the “stupid consumers.”

i dont get it. what kind of evidence are you looking for that will prove my “bias” is true? do you have a whole ton of stories about how altruistic the corporations are? because im pretty sure if we went through and listed all of the times that corporations had an opportunity to be altruistic and there was no public relations opportunity, i think i can bet everything that ive ever owned that 100% of the time, the corporations acted selfishly due to the nature of the situation

Future Man, can’t you see that, because the “altruistic” nature of corporations (and whether they would be altruistic without PR motives, etc.) is impossible to prove one way or the other, one forms one’s belief based on one’s underlying preconceptions of humanity? Moreover, corporations are comprised of individuals. So can’t you further see that your view of corporations (or “idiot” consumers, for that matter) is really your view of humanity camouflaged as a view of corporations? Without any hard data and with only anecdotal evidence (and I’ll stack up my anecdotes alongside yours) with respect to the charitable nature, the courteous nature, the cooperative nature of people, all we really have is a perspective - a perspective that might be right or wrong but one I think we can certainly classify as optimistic or pessimistic. Which would you say yours is and how might it be affecting your judgment as to what the proper form of government should be?

[Jerry]

@Delboy

However, once capitalism has self-destructed (and it will) we will all be released form these shackles and the world will be absolutely wonderful

Well make sure to let me know how that goes for you. I’ll be right here.

[Jerry]

@km2_33

The thing I find fascinating about both communism and capitalism is how their adherents seem to swap sides as they get closer to their goal of global domination.

Interesting. An equal opportunity pessimist.

It seems it doesn’t matter what you believe, we all end up behaving exactly the same way when we get the chance – power hungry ass holes.

See, everybody? This is my point. What makes you say this? Why do you believe this? What is this statement based on?

[Jerry]

@FenceRegulationHypothesis

My point was that there have been and continue to be Authoritarian governments that employ a capitalist economic model. Capitalism does not necessarily equate with democratic ideals and governance. Strong governments can allow for private ownership and open markets and still retain control vis a vis direct military and police enforcement (or the threat thereof). It is a mistake to believe that the two always go hand in hand, just as it is also a mistake to assume that a Communist economic system will always require an Authoritarian government.

I can’t imagine an authoritarian government that would get that way and maintain itself without some huge imposition on the private sector. That’s not what I would be referring to when I speak of Capitalism.

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[Jerry]

Thank you, abgrund, yes I am aware of what makes Capitalism work. And I’ve heard your “explanations” before and I’ve been less than impressed.

Look, you’re missing the point. Isn’t it just possible that Capitalists can look out for Numero Uno and still have enough attention left over for society that we don’t need intrusive government? Isn’t that just possible? Must we really be forced by a centralized government to behave in a manner that everybody collectively thinks is the right way to behave? Aren’t people grown up enough to accept that kind of responsibility without the heavy-handedness?

And - and here’s the point - if your belief is “no” then doesn’t that say something about your attitude about people in general?

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[Piano]

Nobody should take an interest in the economic system of the communist society, because simply, it’s non-existent, or doesn’t require to be classified as an academic subject.

All of us desire a utopia that’s like a paradise, so we have our universal preference for society. Given that the material resource is unlimited in supply, this preference will turn the society commual. With limited supply, this preference is practically ignored. Instead, the less fantastical qualities - our instincts, make the society capitalist. So our preference is free in imagination; but our behaviour is bound by material instincts, not preference. Society is shaped by our behaviours.

[km2_33]

@Future Man

if i accused christians of torturing and murdering… … the fact that stalin was greedy is about as relevant as the fact that bush is greedy.

Firstly FM… do you drink? If not, perhaps I need a drink because I don’t know what your point is. (sorry it could be me)

All I will say is this: “Real” communism is nothing more than a secular religious THEORY. Like other “religions” (dont take me literally here, please) it has no basis in fact (social, pschological, evolutionary) and is only carried by mans innate desire for a perfect world and, to a far greater extent, by his terror of having to face the fact that this is all there is.

Marxism/communism was born out of a very romantic period – and from the “German idealism” strands of philosophy (Hegel). Regardless of attempts to make communism appear practical and hostile to romanticism, its very foundations remain idealized, simplistic and naïve.

You’re living in a fatasy world if you believe communism can be successfully practiced. If you believe that then you probably also believe the drug and HIV/AIDS problems can be solved by “Just saying No!”

[Jerry]

@abgrund

Once again, Jerry, you insist that the only alternatives are the extreme poles - anyone who won’t join your Austrian cult must be a Stalinist, and every objection to laissez-faire is a moral failing of some sort or other. You’re as fanatical as Future Man, in a less bombastic way.

Yes, for the life of me I don’t know why you keep bothering with me.

Oh, and: Jerry wrote:
Isn’t it just possible that Capitalists can look out for Numero Uno and still have enough attention left over for society that we don’t need intrusive government? [by which you mean, any government interested in the welfare of society] Isn’t that just possible?

No.

Took a bit but we got there. Thank you for the illustration. According to your perspective on humanity, government can be interested in the welfare of society but people in general, freely left to their own devices, apparently cannot be. Your position on the pessimistic/optimistic spectrum has been established.

Thanks for playing.

[Delboy]

@Jerry

Thank you, abgrund, yes I am aware of what makes Capitalism work. And I’ve heard your “explanations” before and I’ve been less than impressed.

Look, you’re missing the point. Isn’t it just possible that Capitalists can look out for Numero Uno and still have enough attention left over for society that we don’t need intrusive government? Isn’t that just possible? Must we really be forced by a centralized government to behave in a manner that everybody collectively thinks is the right way to behave? Aren’t people grown up enough to accept that kind of responsibility without the heavy-handedness?

And - and here’s the point - if your belief is “no” then doesn’t that say something about your attitude about people in general?

And if your belief is “yes”, doesn’t that say something about the time you’re spending away with the faeries?

[Future_Man]

@Jerry

@Future Man

absolutely, consumers will lay down their hard earned money to literally buy shiny objects, or the same music theyve heard a million times, or a credit card that has a picture of nascar on it, or a car that comes with a computer, or whatever stupid pointless crap the tv shoves down their throats.

we can call them idiots and say the corporations are just doing what they can to make money. or we can condemn the corporations for taking advantage of idiots. do we condone the taking advantage of idiots? is that a fundamental part of capitalism? or just this corrupted monster that is in desperate need of repair? would capitalism ever work without taking advantage of stupid customers?

Oh, there’s just so much here I am tempted to respond to, but I am bound and determined to stay on topic rather than address such things as whether or not allowing a struggling entrepreneur/producer like myself to proceed unfettered by government’s chains or the claims of the collective might just be an act of altruism in and of itself

ignoring unspoken laws like truth in advertising is an act of altruism?.

Or, all the subjective issues mentioned here. Besides, my concern is more about the various views of human nature in general terms, and not the narrower view of the “evil corporations” or the “stupid consumers.”

i dont get it. what kind of evidence are you looking for that will prove my “bias” is true? do you have a whole ton of stories about how altruistic the corporations are? because im pretty sure if we went through and listed all of the times that corporations had an opportunity to be altruistic and there was no public relations opportunity, i think i can bet everything that ive ever owned that 100% of the time, the corporations acted selfishly due to the nature of the situation

Future Man, can’t you see that, because the “altruistic” nature of corporations (and whether they would be altruistic without PR motives, etc.) is impossible to prove one way or the other, one forms one’s belief based on one’s underlying preconceptions of humanity?

or i base them on this “anecdotal evidence” which is apparently equivalent to nothing at all. i mean the fact that i have never seen a corp act nicely, and there is no reason for them to, and they have proven that they are the greatest cause of evil in the world, i mean apaprently those things arent relavent here. right? or is there some huge piece of evidence that negates this that i missed?

Moreover, corporations are comprised of individuals. So can’t you further see that your view of corporations (or “idiot” consumers, for that matter) is really your view of humanity camouflaged as a view of corporations?

no, because im sure the individuals in that corporation are nice loving parents and siblings. they are not nice contributors to society because their society is their office, not the earth. if they are nice to some poor people in the neighborhood where they are developing and they lose some money for their office, they hurt their community, their office, by way of helping the poor people. when they help my society, earth, they hurt theirs, the office. they very compassionately do all that they can for their boss, and that includes hurting people not affiliated with the company. thats bad right??

Without any hard data and with only anecdotal evidence (and I’ll stack up my anecdotes alongside yours) do it!!

with respect to the charitable nature, the courteous nature, the cooperative nature of people, all we really have is a perspective - a perspective that might be right or wrong but one I think we can certainly classify as optimistic or pessimistic. Which would you say yours is and how might it be affecting your judgment as to what the proper form of government should be?

i would say that for most of my life, i could not imagine that corporations do what they do. i never could have possibly considered that humans are such animals. but they are. when they are disconnected from the results of their actions, they simply dont care. i want to see your anecdotal evidence that proves corporations can be trusted to regulate their own evils. because there is none. i can overload ilp’s server with the anecdotal evidence that proves corps are not the nicest most altruistic things possible. its practically self-evident, i cannot understand how you think they are capable of self-regulation except that you are sheltered, you live in some nice area where all the businesses are nice and youve never gone on the internet and read what the world bank and imf or ge or united fruit or virtually any large corporation has done.

where are all the altruistic billionaires? i seriously want to see what you base your beliefs on. i think it is a lack of evidence, but i want to know what you think.

Aren’t people grown up enough to accept that kind of responsibility without the heavy-handedness?

no.
what made the world the way it is? lack of resources? lazy black people? marijuana? why does the world suck such ass? the third world i mean, which is most of the population. corporations own it, and they exploit it, and they dont care about humanity. if you dont accept and believe this sentence, i will be glad to explode into a gigantic diatribe. so just take my word for it.

doesn’t that say something about your attitude about people in general?

yes and guess what, sometimes attitudes are based on facts.

@km

You’re living in a fatasy world if you believe communism can be successfully practiced

a crazy far off land where the youth havent been corrupted by a media that promotes consumerism and hatred of commie bastards. have you ever been there? if not, i dont think you can accurately say what all people are going to do. for example, there used to actually be a communist party, a huge group of people in america who were actually communists. can you believe that? before the dawn of advertising in the news media, there were actually more people reading “communist” labor directed newspapers than there were people reading the washed down, establishment loving crap in the new york times. now there is none. the world has changed into something crappy. thats why you are so pessimistic towards human nature.

i actually think that humans are pretty compassionate and nice. just not the ones who get in charge and disconnect themselves from the people who they affect. and not the ones who are required to report to their boss how much money they made and not how many humans they helped.

@jerry

According to your perspective on humanity, government can be interested in the welfare of society but people in general, freely left to their own devices, apparently cannot be. Your position on the pessimistic/optimistic spectrum has been established.

so is this a poll to find out who thinks what? or a discussion to find out whos right? are you going to say why the govt cant be trusted? cause ill tell you, here it comes, so simple, the govt is owned by businesses. campaign finance is legal bribery, literally. you cant trust the govt because the govt is the same thing as a business, they are required to tell their lobbyers how much money they made, not how many people they helped. then come election time, nobody gives a god damn how many people the dems and repubs saved because neither of them saved any. they care that the green party is awesome but they dont see the green party on tv twenty times a day with pretty expensive graphics and all the lovely dance that we call politics.

govt is corrupt because business is corrupt. disconnect the two and govt becomes altruistic and forces business to become altruistic. end campaign finance by business interests, live in a utopia.

[Future_Man]

EIGHT THOUUUUUSAND DOLLARS!!! THATS WHAT WE WILL GIVE YOU FOR YOUR USED CAR, NO MATTER WHAT CONDITION ITS IN!!! DRIVE IT, TOW IT, PUSH IT ONTO THE LOT IT DOESNT MATTER!!! YOU BRING YOUR OLD JUNKER IN, AND WE WILL GIVE YOU EIGHT!!! THOUUUUSAND!!! DOOOLLLARRRS!!! [size=59]or make your first two payments[/size]

if you live in the philadelphia area, you are sick and tired of this jackass screaming as loud as he can on every media platform that there is. dont shop at the cherry hill auto triplex because they lie. this is proof that corporations cant be trusted and need regulation. where are all the completely honest great advertisements jerry? where is one example that counteracts this?

[Jerry]

@Future Man

…(corporations) have proven that they are the greatest cause of evil in the world

Oh, my. Not to dismiss the rest of your hyperbolic post (acutally I liked abgrund’s “bombastic” description) but I want to see this proof that corporations are the greatest cause of evil in the world.

The proof, Future Man. The proof. Greatest cause of evil in the world. Greatest. In the world.

Not rants. Not raves. Not raving rants. Verifiable, factual, beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt proof.

[Jerry]

By the way, am I the only one picking up on the irony of FM’s exaggerated claims about corporations engaging in exaggeration?

[Future_Man]

i dont understand, thats like asking me to prove that politicians dont actually try as hard as they can to do everything they can for the poor people of the world.

sigh. hold on, ill scour the internet and give you a ton of examples.

what i want is just one single example of a corporation that contains one billionaire acting altruistically. i think if you cant provide that for me, you should concede, dont you?

also, what do you think is corrupting the politicians??? you think the way to get votes is to hurt poor people? or do you think the way to get votes is to appeal to the corporations so that they will give you money for your campaign and generally they want to hurt poor people?

what is one single reason why the govt isnt completely altruistic and perfect? do you think that they are?? seriously, its like your telling me that things fall up. this is crazy.

[Jerry]

sigh. hold on, ill scour the internet and give you a ton of examples

Sorry that’s anecdotal and therefore insufficient to be regarded as proof that corporations are The Greatest Cause of Evil in the World.

what i want is just one single example of a corporation that contains one billionaire acting altruistically. i think if you cant provide that for me, you should concede, dont you?

Look, I’m not going to argue Capitalism versus Communism with you anymore or debate silly things about greed and selfishness. That’s not the purpose of this topic (although for the record Bill Gates just last month donated $750 million to a worldwide infant vaccination program) and I’m sorry that I’ve allowed myself to go down that road again when my purpose here is to explore the idea of whether or not a person’s subjective view of humanity might color his or her thinking as to what the proper form of government should be. Your view of humanity is crystal clear and I thank you for presenting it.

[Future_Man]

Sorry that’s anecdotal and therefore insufficient to be regarded as proof that corporations are The Greatest Cause of Evil in the World.

what will prove it? lets assume that i found a ton of anecdotes, which i very much could. what is your explanation for those that doesnt end with “corporations dont care about humanity”? what other explanation is there for the fact that corporations arent completely altruistic and wonderful boons to all of humanity?

here is a story about a SHELL oil pipeline repeatedly bursting and destroying a village. the crops that were immediately destroyed should make the village about $3,700 a year. they were given $70 after the first spill, and a few years later, all their crops were completely destroyed and they are still waiting to be paid for that.

does shell oil have $3000 to pay for its failures? either it doesnt, or it is possible that a corporation can violate fundamental laws without anybody giving a god damn. what is your explanation for this? that only shell is evil? not all corporations refuse to care about humanity? what is YOUR stance on this matter?

you seem to think that if i come to an opinion about something through evidence, that i am biased and therefore listening to me is pointless. like i have gathered evidence that says light is coming out of my monitor, and when i tell you that it is turned on, you say that my anecdotal evidence is clouding my judgement.

so i guess ill just restate my placement of optimism. i think all individual people, when dealing face to face with other people, are just fine and wont purposely hurt others if they considers them their equal and there are no resources that need to be stolen. the problem with capitalism is that it puts the leaders of companies into a different society where they dont interact face to face with the countless people they destroy.

the community they belong to is their office. the guy who they are inclined to be nice to is their boss. their boss says “make as much money as possible. period.” and so in order to be nice to his boss, and by proxy his family, he must destroy and ignore the faceless numbers that exist in another dimension.

when the goal of all organizations is to make money, their goal is not to create happiness. that is the fundamental, undeniable problem with unregulated capitalism. it can be remedied by a govt who has not been corrupted.

what i think is very interesting is that you do trust corporations, but you dont trust the govt. what the heck do you think is messing with the govt? what the heck do you think the politicians gain when they do evil things? who do you think is paying them to make the wrong decisions?

the only reason why the govt is messed up is because the corps are messed up! separate the two, and the only thing that will help politicians get elected is their ability to help people, and not their ability to gather money to make a huge campaign.

please dont ignore me, because im so right.

a person’s subjective view of humanity might color his or her thinking

you think ive been bullied around and i hate people? no way, i love people and they love me. im hilarious and always willing to share my homework, everybody is always trying to be my friend. i live in the lovey rainbow utopia where everybody is nice to everybody. and then i look at the news (the actual news, not the news on tv) and i see actual things that consistently happen without fail. absolutely every single time a corporation could be nice, they are evil. give me one single anecdote to the contrary. believe it or not, all truth about the universe is based on anecdotal evidence.

[Jerry]

what other explanation is there for the fact that corporations arent completely altruistic and wonderful boons to all of humanity?

Should corporations necessarily be altruistic or should individuals?

you seem to think that if i come to an opinion about something through evidence, that i am biased and therefore listening to me is pointless.

Pointless is a bit strong. But when you speak in hyperbole and use phrases like “greatest evil in the world” you really don’t do yourself any favors. You lose credibility. It becomes tough to take you seriously. I’m sorry, but there it is. Sometimes a softer, quieter, more toned-down approach works better. Ironically, you could stand to take a marketing class or two. It might help you get your message across better.

the only reason why the govt is messed up is because the corps are messed up! separate the two, and the only thing that will help politicians get elected is their ability to help people, and not their ability to gather money to make a huge campaign.

Separating the two is all I’ve wanted all along.

please dont ignore me, because im so right.

I promise not to ignore you because you’re “so right”…

you think ive been bullied around and i hate people? no way, i love people and they love me. im hilarious and always willing to share my homework, everybody is always trying to be my friend

I’m sure you’re right. It’s probably just all the negativity and suspicion and pessimism and cynicism and hatred that’s throwing me off.