can we become better by looking at our ape ancestors?

I think that if there were more human cultures modeled after the bonobo society our own society would have fewer problems. They have a maternal society that is sex driven and homosexuality is a strong part of there society.

What are the benefits? They use sex when there is a question of power, instead of using power for sex. We wouldn’t have to go as far as having public sex, but we could use their model to develop a more peaceful society.

The title of this thead cracked me up…thanks for the laugh…

ah let me guess, apes aren’t in any way related to us?

well I’ve got news for you, your DNA would disagree.

ha…no i didnt mean it like that…

it’s just an amusing title thats all. carry on…

Brilliant! I just think that is absolutely brilliant. I just think it is brilliant!

Too bad the fundies would ruin it, just like they ruin everything good and wholesom in this world.

yep, the ape fundies would probably come up with a new commandment:

Thou shalt not throw your feces (or anyone else’s) at your neighbor…

but the apes don’t have language so that wouldn’t work…

oh well…

-Imp

Hey, at least there’d be a strong population control. Wild promiscuous people for free love. Read: wild promiscuous people for STDs. But hey, even though are life span would be drastically shortened at least we would enjoy are few days together doing what we do best.

I didn’t mean to literally have sex for power situations like the bonobos, I meant that we could use our “intelligence” for power situations.

right now we are very animalistic in the way we deal with power situations (of course using sex would be no different) violence for power. The fundies would have fun denying that one :wink:

we have the capability to use our brain to solve power issues, instead of resorting to violence or sex. The whole example of the bonobos was to show that a society of chimps had evolved to use sex instead of violence for power issues. (it just happens that we probably evolved from the violence power camp.)

your misunderstanding my point read above.

but I think if we were more open sexually alot of the problems we are having today (AHEM, the homosexual marriage issue) would be nullified.

thanks Pope.

How dare you assault their “absolute morals”… I mean hell, they are the defining form for all our morals and ethos. Without them we would be violent rampaging animals that didn’t care about other life. (of course when you mention to them they don’t care about other life on earth, because they are divine creation they throw a fit)

i believe the reason why power struggles involve force is because force is what you use when you arent ACTUALLY superior.

two stories of how you get powerful:
everyone starts with a small collection of farms and then, since you are so smart, you increase the efficiency of your farms, the efficiency of everything so that more of your children survive and you are fundamentally stronger and better than your stupid neighbors still trying to farm without using crop rotation which you discovered. this head start facilitates all future head starts, and any society utilizing your technology is neccesarily in debt to you if you withhold your knowledge so that they are required to provide a service in exchange for mysteriously extra efficient resources. you build your empire based on everybody wanting a piece of your monopoly.

the other way to do it is when you have those farms, you gather all your people and kill the neighboring farmers and take everything that they have. this gives you a head start over the other neighbors who are still working with 'one neighbor’s worth of farm stuff. this head start facilitates all future military endeavors and subsequent growth.

those idiots who are able to rally their fellow idiots and take stuff from smart people are always going to exist. its not difficult to be a warlord, but it is difficult to get what they get without being one.

the only solutions to this problem are absolute authority or eugenics. we either kill all of those people who will grow up to resent those who are smart and superior, or we somehow prevent them from rallying.

ideally, wed have both. in A Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, the castes that are neccesary for an economy like ours are genetically absolute. nobody ever gets anything more or less than what they know they deserve. in our economy today, rich people are either entrepeneurs, or those who are paid more because of their rare skills. the entrepeneurs can be one of those from the latter group, but they can also be the kind of people who ruthlessly kill their competition.

in a Brave New World, there would be no ‘rare’ people that need high pay to attract them. there would be a roughly set amount of jobs that need filling and a roughly set amount of people that will be genetically specified for that job and allocated for cloning.

id also imagine that in a few hundred years or so, entrepeneurs will be quite a rarity, since wal-mart and its succesors will have all the capital required to do anything that makes an entrepenurial business good.

that rules out all economic unfairness. doesnt it? the difference between our society and monkeys/less modern societies is that the differences between males are more complicated than simple strength. if we make it so that tohse differences dont result in unfairness, then there is no problem. no envy, no war.

future man →

Not, in the case of bonobos, they use sex to gain status and the society is lead by the females of the group.

so we have two known primate power struggle tools.

sex and violence.

(we some times as humans mix the two together.)

which one do you think is a more idealistic way to deal with power issues? or how about we use our “brains” and come up with intelligent conversations to deal with power issues?

I’m not going to even bother with your second post, as you still fail to grasp what “the brave new world” is about.

i love to post many times for no reason

i am awesome

you still fail to tell me what i fail to grasp. whatever failure aldous huxley thinks will happen, i 100% guarantee that it is not necesarily so and that if i were world emperor at the time i can most certainly tell you exactly how to fix it. please elaborate, just once.

obviously the utopian way to go about things is to rationally discuss the matter and cooperate as much as possible. if cooperation is impossible because there are too many people and too few resources, i like to hope that in the future population control can be handled in a cooperative, rational, controlled way, instead of crappy war that everyone hates.

im not sure i understand how you ‘use sex’ to gain power. the way you use violence is that when you physically hurt your enemy, either he is physically incapable of continuing to get in your way, or he realizes that if the conflict escalated that thats where it will end up and he surrenders.

sex seems to me like the animal version of material wealth. women, kids, territory, those are the things that animals use violence to gain or defend. how does having sex prove anything or do anything so that you can gain or keep those things?

dont forget: what about the brave new world? whats the bad part about it? creative expression destroyed? do identical twins ever think different thoughts?

Uhh… if you were world emperor, the whole world would revolt against you. Same as if I were world emperor, or Bush, or FDR, or Gandhi. There is an entire movement of people in the U.S. who think the U.N. is secretly engaged in a covert plan to take charge of the world and put it under the control of one government. Any beneficial changes you would make would be undone by rebels and mafias at the local level.

Also, I dunno where you’re going with the twins thing, but you are proposing to enslave 80% of the human race and use them for genetic breeding cows, yes? It ain’t just the cattle has problems with that, some of us elitist wankers will oppose it also. The Alphas in “Brave New World” are children with PhD’s - book smart without real “character” and with an immature sense of entitlement straight out of the sickly incestuous Medieval/Baroque European nobility. This is the world you want? These are the people you want ruling it? You tell us Huxley was overly pessimistic about that kind of world; I presume you know how to educate the most self-righteous master race the world will ever have seen with a sense of humility? Enlighten us, O Ruler.

well if you want my life story, it is actually a pretty good. descriptive way to create a perfectly moral smart guy with humility, social skills, self righteousness. whether or not you want to hear it, i know for a fact that it is possible.

i would say that there are people better suited for jobs that require this ‘character’ you speak of. i dont understand human emotions very well, there are many things i would fail at miserably, not the least of those being sales. its not hard to avoid these things. and in the ambiguous ‘future’ of genetic engineering, i dont think it will be hard to create book alphas or analytical alphas like myself, as well as ‘character’ alphas to convince people of things for me.

i think a big problem huxley had was the fact that there were like 6 different clones right? it doesnt make much sense to clone when you could just manipulate existing dna from within a single caste, changing only a small part specific to the job that will be done by the fetus, leaving all other individuality intact. or if you do clone them, recombine dna all over the place. it cant be that hard to maintain diversity. not hard at all.

as for preventing the leaders from becoming too proud of their superiority to care about the happiness of the masses, i would say that it cant be very hard to create masses that require minimum effort for their happiness. give them drugs, give them public entertainment. jobs that fit their brain capacity and personality. what the hell else could they possibly want? to be smart and actually care about stuff beyond football sex and drugs? not the humans i know.

i imagine in this future world that the money given to people for doing their job will be pretty much the same. nobody will live in a stupid mansion, nobody will live in a shack. so the smart people will be upset that they dont get recognition for their superiority besides their career accomplishments?

nope, gammas wont get a computer with the internet or its super future equivalent, theyll just get a mass produced playstation 10, which is cheaper but serves their purposes better than the neural interface that confuses and angers them.

thats what smart people want. they want recognition as intellectually superior. today they get their material expensive possessions or their philosophical quest somewhere to separate themselves from the average shmo. if a smart person just lived in a house somewhere and pushed paper for 30 years, their head would explode. all they need to be happy that is different from the gamma’s simple footballsexdrugs is to have different things that are specific to their smartness.

both types can be happy just fine. why not? when has it proven to be impossible to create good leaders? when capitalismocracy took over? when the “best” person for ruling our country is the guy who manipulated the popular media the most?

obviously i would have to enact a ruler selection system that is not a ridiculous insult to even evangelicals’ intelligence.

no
let people have their own kids. make everybody’s pipes have a kink in them that prevents natural insemination. make them come to a govt office and apply for a kid, have them hand over the sperm/eggs that their body has been creating and unable to use on its own. make a kid with that, genetically make him perfect for a specific kind of job, artificially inseminate. its almost like the regular way, just with more forms to fill out. small small price to pay.

come on now, obviously my system will create the exact opposite of that.

many many people will die before we can live in peace. ill kill them with my bare hands.

Oh, okay. Have at it then. Lemme know if you need an extra pair of hands.

i saw that coming

so basically what you want is a combination of brave new world and gattaca.

(and I’m not going to tell you why you are wrong in your view of BNW, it is not for me to say why, just to say that you are.)

Remember in Gattaca, they had went to the genetic factory to get kids, to get the best kid, and having kids “ala natural” was verboten.

and look what happened in the movie, the kid that was not supposed to become a “elite class” became an elite class, he became better than his genes. While are genes make us, they don’t make us who we are.

dammit future man you are straying from the subject.

if i ruled the world of gattaca, there would be an objective test to determine if you can be an astronaut. if you pass that test, ie if you can run 20 mph or more, then you got it. no genetic testing, only objective analyses of the qualities that are required. if theres no diffetrence in those, there is actually no difference in the astronautical abilities. what else matters? antiquated aristocracy, not mine.

i think when cops pull you over and give you a sobriety test where you dance and balance around, they should judge you based on that. they should make that test more accurate than it is, but if you can balance and see straight and have reflexes just like a sober person, who the hell cares what some number is. movies and books are made to have a conflict, not illustrate a perfectly logical situation or society. not until my reprogramming centers are commisioned.

but anyway to get back to the issue at hand i have to understand what you mean by ‘use sex to gain power’

when you use violence, your enemy is eventually physically incapable of hurting you or stopping you from doing what you want. unless the monkeys ass can get so sore that this is how he ends up, i dont see how sex can be used in this way.