Cap and Trade

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

they should be passing Cap and Trade, aka. “National Energy Policy” legislation today or tomorrow, despite that youve heard nothing about it in the media. this will be the single most massive, expansive and devastating thing that obama and the democrats have done so far, far surpassing TARP and the auto takeover. Soviet-style central planning and forced rationing of EVERY PRODUCTIVE ENTERPRISE IN AMERICA is on the way.

but thats somehow supposed to make us “energy independent”, by crippling the energy industry (and as a nice consequence for the DFL statists, the rest of american industry as well); if you produce “carbon” you will be taxed. oh goodie. im trying to imagine even a single industry or business in america that DOESNT produce any carbon, and i cant. theyve really got us by the balls this time. how long do you think a fragile overburdened and artificially inflated economy can withstand such a massive new tax on production and artificial limits on how much you can produce carbon (i.e. how much products you can make, how much you can drive your car, how much food you can sell, how many employees you can hire, etc)?

and you thought obama and the dems wanted to save jobs and help grow the economy. what a poor delusional fuck.

The idea is to price fossil fuels out of existence by making the production of energy through burning of fossil fuels more expensive than the green-approved methods of solar and wind. This method has already been tried in Europe and failed when the current economic slump reduced energy usage enough hat credits which had been priced in the 30-45 Euro range dropped to the 8 Euro range as the market became flooded with credits. Since then one writer for the Guardian in the UK actually admits in one article bemoaning the collapse and failure of the Euopean program:

The market must be unashamedly rigged to force supply below demand.

Think about that. Here is a writer who admits that the whole theory of Cap and Trade fails unless the government adds additional costs to the system to generate shrotages . . .

wake the fuck up. yeah, you reading this. theres nothing you can do, but you better at least know whats coming. this is the first big domino. america is going to be forever and radically changed. it has been estimated that cap and trade could shrink GDP by up to 3% a year. yeah. and remember that the figures and estimates that government gives us about such things tend to always be somehow completely wrong, even the most extreme estimates (e.g. cost of saving GM and chrysler? national unemployment no greater than 8% at worst? federal deficit to be reduced this fiscal year [oh wait, i mean eh 2 Trillion Dollars, sorry about that])

Before we jump into the fire of increased regulation and limited supply, careful consideration needs to be taken. The US economy grew strong on a diet of abundant and inexpensive energy. Do we want to risk that by putting a limit on the supply? Europe cheated on its Cap and Trade plan by granting credits to Russia, a nation that does not enforce the system, and has a shrinking economy. Russian companies can sell their allowances to other companies in Europe without impacting the Russian economy. This has prevented any shortage of supply. When the system was first proposed a number of economists and businessmen noticed this feature, and correctly stated that it was being used to make the program a showpiece that would not accomplish any true reduction. A true reduction will hurt the economy.

“im from the government and im here to help.” get a clue. i dont care what ideology you think you are or what side of the fence you stand on, proudly strutting around and yelling about “the other side” that has ruined everthing. this will affect you. bigtime. this is NATIONAL FORCED RATIONING OF ALL PRODUCTION. do you get that? its disguised under “trading carbon credits”, but any artificial limitation of supply this large will generate the increased prices that are needed to FORCE demand down to where utopian social planners want it. think youll still be driving that car around wherever youd like in 20 years? think again.

Here is how a system like that works. The government creates a scarce new commodity, carbon credits, in this case, and then makes a law that businesses buy it. There is then a competition for these credits among corporations large and small and their cost rises as high as the market will allow. Now you will be hit by these costs. Your energy bill will increase, or you will have to pay the government for the carbon you produce. However, as with sales taxes, you won’t pay this money yourself. No, the costs would inevitably be passed on to your customers in the form of higher prices.

now ask yourself why you havent heard about this imminent vote on this legislation. you think they want you to know what theyre about to do? this is the single worst thing obama and the dems have done so far, but dont worry, it will soon be far outdone when they nationalize 17% of the american economy this fall and call it “saving healthcare”.

youre just a tool for these people. wake the fuck up. not that theres anything you can do to stop it, its far too late for that.

2

Gasoline tax. The more you burn, the more you pay. We already have carbon taxes. This is nothing new.

3

youre so funny.

4

and they don’t think the tax payers will revolt

-Imp

5

and you think they will. [-X

6

history never repeats

-Imp

7

im not sure how you think that is relevant to anything at all, or how it somehow shows that americans are anything other than a manipulted herd of cattle, or how its even true, but ok.

8

I think the taxpayers will revolt when they realise that national health care doesn’t mean free medical care, but that it means that instead of their employer paying all or most of it, that they, the taxpayers, will be paying all of it. We may settle for jet fighters that are not twenty times better than everyone else’s, but only ten times better. And trumped-up wars may be more difficult to wage. There may be some billionaires who don’t get their six hundred dollar a month Social Security checks. It may be wishful thinking, but it may also come to pass that every third government employee will no longer be a social worker. And we may no longer believe that the most expensive education system is the best one.

Or maybe not.

9

Yeah, I’d rather send the human race on the fast track to hell than pay more taxes too.

10

So Obama is actually doing something drastic about CO2 emission? Seems appropriate since it’s what he has been saying during his campaign. He announced early on that he would reform the economy by reducing dependency on imported fuels and creating new green energy economy at home. That doesn’t seem like such a bad idea in terms of industry, as it would mean that things would actually get produced again in America.

11

NEWS UPDATE (6/26): the bill passed the House. theres no stopping it now, it will go right through the Senate to our wonderful presidents desk where he will sign it, proudly ending the American economy as we know it.

change we can believe in.

you can thank your republican representatives for this; about 1/5 of democrats voted against the bill, which would have been more than enough to kill it, but 8 republicans crossed and voted for it, so it barely passed, by a margin of 4 votes.

whatever bribes or payoffs these rhinos were given we will never know. but we can be assured that, as the saying goes, the only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. we have a wonderful example of that with HR 2454. the republicans who are supposed to protect us against this sort of statism, of central government expansion into the economy and our lives failed us, again. we could have stopped it, but we didnt. thanks to them. even plenty of democrats had the good sense to see through this bill and vote against it, but not the GOP.

this is the most important bill in over 100 years. you doubt it? just wait until it gets enacted. and go read the manager’s amendment, that 300 pages that was added at the last minute, at 3:09am this morning; or read the entire 1000 page bill itself. theyre located on line. if you care, that is, which i am sure that you do not.

im done. i dont have the energy for this right now. educate yourself if you care, or be just one more ignorant drone like all the rest.

12

I am not certain that it will get past the senate

Bono Mack
Castle
LoBiondo
McHugh
Lance
Kirk
Reichert
Smith (NJ)

the 8 gop traitors who will be primaried

-Imp

13

Could you please list the most important points, or summarize, those 300 pages, in your own words?

14

HR 2998 is available online for free. educate yourself.

15

It seems to be a pretty serious plan to reduce dependency on environmentally destrucive and economically enslaving resources.
Thats bad, of course.

16

forced rationing of all industrial production, a national energy tax that our own CBO estimates will cost average families between $1000 and $3000 a year in just heating/electricity bills, no nuclear power or natural gas, no drilling in the vast offshore oil field that the US has… yes, i can see why its about liberating us from being dependeng on rising energy costs and foreign production…

and not to mention that it will actually add MORE pollutants into earth’s atmosphere, since it will drive VAST amount of production and industry out of the US and to india and china and mexico, where there are practically no emissions standards.

economic growth doesnt exist in a bubble, you cant close in and “cap” production; it is either free to expand as the market demands, or not. europe tried cap and trade. read my OP. it was disasterous, as you cant just somehow cut demand overnight, even when you limit supply— all you do is drive costs up tremendously, which wrecks havoc on the economy. europe only made it work by buying credits to pollute from russia, and russia doesnt even enforce their standards. europe is actually making MORE greenhouse gases with their cap and trade, because “in theory” russia produces less since it sells its carbon credits to european companies, but in reality russia does what it wants. europe knows this. they dont give a shit, of course… it was never about the environment anyways. which anyone with any sense at all can realise.

it is about control. growth of government power over its people. crippling the economy and bringing ALL production underneath federal regulation and direct oversight. read the amended HR 2998, especially the 300 additional pages. its insane.

its not about the environment. the environment actually gets more pollution under cap and trade, since companies just relocate to countries where they dont give a shit about emissions. this is documented. and its not about “jobs” or energy production, since this bill will cost an average of TWO MILLION JOBS lost each year, as estimted by CBO. and as for energy, well, lets see… no nuclear plants, no natural gas, less coal, and no drilling. hm. yes, i can see how energy independence is the goal ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

all those things, of course, are indeed very, very bad. unless youre part of the federal government and you stand to gain from the $2 trillion that will be transfered from the private sector and families into the federal coffers via the national energy tax… or if youre the new ‘energy secretary’ and you get to have complete and unlimited/unoversighted power to determine any and every aspect of construction/production/transfer of energy flow and gridlines across the country. sure, what a great idea. its not like we can move energy from one place to another without the federal government standing there dictating every step of the way, and taking their pound of flesh in taxes every time someone turns a crank or pushes a button.

yes, as i said, its very, very bad.

17

You actually read all of it? I can’t do it. I want to read through the additional 300 though but where do they start? I am using this source.
thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:h2998:

So you think theres no possibility this is a setup for a long term investment in new energy industries?

I am in dubio about big government - ideally it should not interfere with too much, but given the state of affairs now, the wreckage the buy-strip-sell branch of the private trade sector has left, it is hard to imagine a recovering economy without government interference. Of course this interference should be visionary, not stupid and merciless. For now, Im keeping my hope up that theres an element of the former behind these politics.

18

“im from the government, and im here to help.”

19

I lived through the 80´s and 90´s in the Netherlands. A very big socialist government. Life was well oiled, free, sane. When the government got privatized, the engine trouble occurred. Big industries, transport and energy were being sold to privates, and to foreign governments, etc. Now we have an uneducated mass of impotent rebels working in callcenters or become specialist consultant managers.

As a beginning, the bill of rights was ideal. The things got bad, and then they changed it. Maybe they shouldnt have, who knows what would have happened - for one thing, Germany would definitely have won the war. But that didnt happen. America is now an imperialist government, an empire, precisely what it should never have become if it wanted to stick to the purity of its design. But it has been changed, and cant be changed back. Im sure Obama has thought about this and figured, with the few powers he has, lets do it once and for all, the time is ripe, maybe this time it will work. After all, thisd is America. In that, he would be right. European Union is not the United States of Europe. We re thinking about letting Turkey in. That would be like giving the Irakis the right to vote for your president. What Im saying is the EU government can pretty much do nothing to any significant extent. It cant start any wars, it cant instigate big changes. Maybe Obama can? No pun intended.

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I think the US will be an imperial power for the foreseeable future. What will likely happen is that it will eventually get some competition. Competition is good.